The Cost of Conviction: Building a Fashion Label With Purpose | Cathryn Wills

00:00:01

Why did you choose less money and more friction? >> Mimco I was with for 12 years. Started off as a freelance designer and then I went head of design. Then I went creative director and then I went managing director. So it was a sort of a trajectory. I certainly felt like it had become groundhog day for me. I just needed to jump off the cliff and then I was like who am I? It was time for me to do something that had purpose and had conviction versus how can I make a shitload of money. >> I've yet to meet anyone who has had that

00:00:38

level of commitment in their own vision. >> Conviction doesn't come for free. It costs. Nothing will humble you more than starting your own business. It's financial. It's cultural. It's human resources. It's loneliness. All those things remind you that humility is like the most important thing to be able to master. I think we get confused about what you is and we think that it means a whole new product range that you're offering someone. There's ways of refreshing a product to remind them that

00:01:08

it exists and to show a different angle of it. And as brands all start to look like each other, the ones that actually stand for something have got more chance of longevity. >> Let's start with the fundamentals. What makes a good product? This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio. Here at the Agency podcast, we're building a community and we would love for you guys to be a part of it. So, we would love to hear from you. What are you enjoying the most? What would you like to see more of? And what do you

00:01:40

think might be missing? Drop a comment. Make sure you subscribe. And now, on with the show. >> Katherine Wills, welcome to the Agency podcast. >> Thank you. You were managing director of Mimco building the business and eventually left. What were you walking away from? >> Well, firstly, nice to be here. Mimco I was with for 12 years. Two as a freelancer and 10 as a solid part of the furniture and I started off as a freelance designer and then I went head of design. Then I went creative director

00:02:10

and then I went managing director. So it was a sort of a trajectory that I was on. What I was walking away from was security like a you know an income um a title the cudos that comes with that a team supporting me um and >> you had a big team. >> Yeah I mean you know the business had grown a lot when I joined the business I joined the founder who started Mimco and then um she sold the business to a big retail retailer uh and then they sold to an even bigger retailer. So I went through a couple of acquisitions. I went

00:02:45

through multiple head offices and the team grew accordingly over that time. So you know it was it was a big decision to walk away after that long. But I I certainly felt like it had become groundhog day for me. You know it was I'd written strategies. I'd recruited people. I'd done creative direction briefs. Um we'd grown a lot. We were very profitable. you know, it was a successful business. It was coming up to its 20th birthday as a brand. And I just felt for me, for the business, it

00:03:20

was a good bookend to say bye. And and I'd also had some changes as far as h how I felt about what I was the materials that I was working with. And um I knew that a new path was beckoning. >> For you personally, why did it feel like Groundhog Day? What about that was really starting to I guess bother you and when it came to being in that position in a brand. I am quite a curious individual and I like to challenge myself and do different things and it had just become I guess boring for me and just season in season out you

00:03:57

know there was always different like creative direction is a vibrant space to be in and there's always new things to do and new things to create and collections to to build and stories to tell and visual merchandising to bring to life and you know all those things in the retail space. It just became um monotonous for me. And I also just felt the business needed fresh blood as well. Like I felt like >> it was a favor to them as well for me to walk away. I didn't know what I was going to do. Like it's not like I was

00:04:26

leaving to start something new other than a new chapter. >> So you didn't have phase two lined up. You were >> not at all. Not at all. I just needed to jump off the cliff. >> Do you think there was a distinctive moment that led to that or a collective of just I've played my role here? It was like a year of thinking about it. Okay. >> And I'd also gone vegetarian, so I was definitely on the way to I'm not really sure working with leather and not eating meat is really,

00:04:52

>> you know, feeling like me anymore. Um, but then just progressively, you know, how I felt about where the business was going, how I felt about what I was doing creatively. It was just all those moments. It's not, you can't just make a quick decision when you're, >> you know, earning good money at the top of the business. the business is thriving financially, culturally, you know, all those things. You can't just quit and walk out. Like, it has to be a progressive thing. And it's scary. So,

00:05:18

no, it wasn't a pivotal moment. It was many moments joined together of progressively not feeling like I was at ease in my own skin anymore. >> I think sometimes being lost and not knowing the next chapter is kind of the best place someone could be. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I just think every big decision that I've made in my career has has been, you know, I felt it's the right decision to make and it's generally followed by um, you know, stress and what am I doing? Where am I?

00:05:47

But there's nothing like I can't not make that jump. I've always been comfortable, I guess, in facing those brave moments and just >> just jumping. >> Did you feel like at the time your identity was tied into your title at that moment? >> 100%. 100%. I mean, I left. I had that, you know, that high of, "Oh, I'm free. I'm going to just do what I want to do for a while and we're going to travel and I've got some money in the bank and and then I was like, who am I?

00:06:15

>> Wow. >> Who am I?" Like, I just had such a um an emotional crash after after a few months for sure. And you know it impedes confidence and you know um focus belief in yourself and then you just slowly rebuild yourself and then nothing no one can knock you over. >> But what's crazy about this is that most people leave a corporate job to make more money with less stress or less friction. You walked away and into the opposite. Why did you choose less money and more friction? When I left Mimco, I

00:06:54

had some savings. I felt relatively stable financially and um that gave me a certain freedom. I mean, I definitely think money brings freedom for sure. >> I agree. >> And so that allowed me to be a little bit riskier, I suppose, with what I was willing to do next. For a while now, I've certainly had a view of abundance versus scarcity. Like, I know what my skills are. I know I can always earn money and I know that money flows in the world. And so I just didn't I I I guess I've had a bit of a cavalier view when

00:07:25

it comes to finances. I just think sort of a little bit of easy come easy go. Like I mean I I wanted to do what I wanted to do with my business and I didn't want um money to be the defining factor of it. I suppose I didn't feel like I needed to go out there and earn that big salary again. It it was time for me to do something that had purpose and had conviction versus how can I make a shitload of money? Because there are bloody easier ways to make money than starting a purpose-driven vegan handbag

00:08:00

brand. I can tell you that right now. Way more easy ways. But it's um I think, you know, I think conviction doesn't come for free. like you have to it it it costs and that is not something that I've regretted thus far. >> Now I want to highlight something here which I think is crazy is that you started Sands Beast and at the beginning you invested over half a million of your own capital. I've yet to meet anyone who has had that level of commitment in their own vision. What compelled you to

00:08:35

go allin? Uh well, it's certainly not listening to anyone else, that's for sure. I mean, >> this is probably not advice from anyone, I would imagine. >> No, no. I mean, when I left when I left Mimco and I traveled and I had the identity crisis and I came back to Australia and um I consulted and I consulted to a business that was owned by private equity and um I was sort of floating the idea of starting something myself and one of the partners there said, you know, if you start something,

00:08:59

never do it with your own money. And I remember thinking, yeah, I'm not going to do I'm not going to listen to that. Before this commitment happened, uh, you became frustrated with how the industry operated and being behind the curtain, so to speak, you were able to see what really goes on in the rag trade and how people really treat certain situations and suppliers and so such. Did knowing the industry's secrets make leaving and going all in on yourself easier or harder? Um, look, I will first say that I've

00:09:30

been fortunate to work with businesses that do their due diligence when it comes to factory sourcing. Um, I've never really worked on the lower-end fast fashion side of things. I've always worked with businesses that value manufacturers and factories and go and do their audits. Um, I've worked with beautiful raw materials. So, that side of things, I feel like I've had good training from day one. Really, I guess the thing that flipped my sort of switch when it came to ethics and transparency was the material

00:10:01

side of things and working with leather and talking about, you know, we only buy from leather where the five freedoms of animals are respected. I thought, well, that's interesting because I've never been to a farm. I've never been to a slaughter house. How can we as a business actually confirm that those animals have been treated appropriately? Because a lot of brands say that they do this but they don't live it. >> Yeah. And with all due respect to those brands, I mean it's it sounds harsh but

00:10:28

it sort of is because you know there there are you can talk about the tanneries that you work with that might be cutting down on chemicals and they might ensure that their their supply chain of you know the human interaction and the chemical work is appropriate but no one's really talking about the animals. No one's talking about the farms. No one's talking about the transparency of that calf and you know showing CCTV camera footage of how that animal is being treated in the whole supply chain. So I didn't feel that that

00:10:57

sort of you know ethical washing was appropriate and really that was one of my turning points. >> Being in a situation where you were working for a big fashion brand then moving into your own brands. This sounds like it was quite liberating for you to be able to really have control over what was actually the narrative of the brand. >> Definitely. I'm not I'm not um accountable to a board of directors that have got other vested interests. You know, I can say whatever I want to say

00:11:25

and I can make sure that what we write about and what we share is our truth and you know the ethos of the brand. It's going to sound very wanky, but the truth does set you free. like you know the fact that you speak your truth I think is one of the best things you can have in your career. >> I I would agree even if I look around at the market at the greats when it comes to fashion or brand building they're never really yes people they're always defiant unruly and the types of individuals who like to create their own

00:11:54

worlds. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine uh Josh Sparks who's been on the show before. He worked with Tom Brown and he said that at the beginning no one agreed with this guy. Yeah. When Tom Brown was building Tom Tom Brown New York he had this own world in his mind that he wanted to create. What was that for you? What was in your mind that you were trying to put out there in the world? >> You know, I initially didn't think it would be a handbags business. I felt

00:12:17

that I'd done handbags for a long time and I was over it. Um but then I started looking around at what was available um for someone that didn't want to buy an animal skin handbag and I felt that there was a gap in the market for something that was excessively priced not cheap and cheerful but not premium not luxury that was sort of sitting really sitting in the Mimo price point really like you know sort of 44 $450 at the at the top end and like $200 sort of as entry. So I felt that that was

00:12:43

missing in the market. I'd also had, you know, 12 years of rose gold crystals, blingy, mimcoy sort of glam. And I was much more, you know, um, inspired by utilitarian aesthetic. Much more inspired by, um, androgynous fashion than I was by that super frivolous look. And so I wanted to, I guess, combine those two things. I wanted to do bags that I thought were cool, streamlined, androgynous that had had a design edge or a designled aspect and aesthetic to them. Um, that didn't use animal skins

00:13:18

basically. Um, and you know, that has evolved over time based on what appeals to people and what sells well and you know, the collections build from there. >> If you want to grow your agency, you need more than just a website builder. You need Rick Studio, the all-in-one platform that's built to help you scale. Design smarter in a hyperflexible, responsive editor, cherrypicking whatever clients need from pre-built UI elements and templates. Deliver robust backends with built-in e-commerce

00:13:49

solutions for every industry, letting self-maintaining infrastructure just run itself. Stop reinventing the wheel with every project and instead create a sharable design system with reusable assets, apps, and components. Clients growing too fast? No sweat. Wick Studio AI powered CMS lets you turn a single layout into hundreds of additional dynamic pages. It's true. More clients no longer has to mean more chaos. Wix Studio gives you one centralized view of every project and makes realtime collaborations seamless. Do your

00:14:26

agency's best work at scale. Build your next project on Wix Studio. Before you mentioned that you had a identity crisis. >> Yeah, I did. I did. >> When you went from having a team of hundreds to then sitting alone in a co-working space, was this confronting? >> Yeah, it was. It was. And you know like I consider myself quite an introspective thoughtful person who's pretty honest with herself and you know can't stand delusion and you know tells herself the truth. Um but and I do but I think um

00:15:02

you know there's no doubt that the ego was still pretty powerful at that stage even when we're in the co-working space. And >> if you had to describe your ego at that time what would it sound like? >> A little bit of don't you know who I am? like you know what I've just done like I led Mimco and that just that just dissipates over time like I'm I'm proud of the chapter that I had at that time and I'm proud of my previous career chapters as well and I'm so grateful for

00:15:28

the mentors that I had along the way and the opportunities that I've been given. But nothing will humble you more than starting your own business as I'm sure you know. Like you know um it's financial, it's cultural, it's human resources, it's loneliness, it's all those things remind you that um humility is like the most important thing to be able to master. >> You said it was lonely. What was the loneliest moment in this journey? Well, you know, you sort of get invited to a

00:16:00

lot when you're the managing director of a big brand and then everyone just forgets that you exist. Yeah. >> And then you forget that you exist and then when you do go to an event, you know, your confidence isn't there. >> Now you're just Catherine. >> Exactly. And what are you doing? Like what >> who are you? >> What are you doing? Oh, a vegan brand. like you know like being embarrassed to sort of say that in the first whatever little while >> and then time I it doesn't take long to

00:16:24

adjust and then you see something that you've created from nothing grow and a community grow and you see someone walking along with one of your bags on and you hear people say, "Oh my god, I love that brand." And then you just build yourself up step by step and none of that stuff worries you anymore. It's um it doesn't happen immediately, but it's this progressive sort of rebirththing I think that happens to your ego and to your um your inner world that be they criticisms or be they

00:17:01

compliments, none of those things affect you anymore because you're so grounded within yourself and you can make your own judgments, be it a compliment or a criticism, that nothing can get to you, which you know, there's got to be somewhere twins and then you then you realize, you know, that you're you're the same person that you were. >> Like, you know, like, of course, you're an evolved person, but >> you're you're okay. You know, you're um you've got the strength and you've got

00:17:29

the the history that you built up. They say that starting your own business or bu having a small business or a big business I guess it's of course there's people that want to build a business to sell it and make the big make the big you know >> cash thing but the biggest thing the biggest gift that you get from having your business is the learnings that you have that you that you have about yourself like it's it's it's like therapy being an entrepreneur is therapy really

00:17:56

>> really expensive therapy >> but it is amazing therapy >> to learn about yourself and to learn how you impact other people. You know, I learned a lot of that at Mimco, but you don't I think I learned so much more of it building this >> with the brand Sanssbeast. The name literally means without animal. >> Yes. >> Is that the point? Because whenever I think about brands that are injecting some agenda or an opinion or something like this into their brand, there can be

00:18:25

a fear that this will alienate our audience and get in the way of profitability. Especially when you're putting so much integrity into the product. >> Yeah. >> So, how did you feel about the name at the beginning? Where did it come from? And were you afraid of using it? And where's Sans from? Like what what um >> just it's a French word for without. >> Okay. Got it. >> It should be song. >> But um and you know the first year of the brand we're like hello song beast

00:18:50

and people like is that sans beast? >> And then you just realize okay we're Australian. We need to just go with the flow. >> We ruin everything. >> We need to meet people where they are Catherine. So yeah, we started saying Sans Beast. Um, and some people just say Sam's Beast, some people just say Sans, like they just get it wrong all the time. But anyway, um, so I came up with a name. Then I did my PowerPoint presentation. My my concern for it was it wasn't so much that I'm going to

00:19:13

alienate people. It was that I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve. It was going back to that vulnerability piece of, oh my god, I'm actually putting out into the world, you know, I love animals and I want to build a fashion brand that doesn't lose animals. Um, and when I decided to use it, I'm like, "That's actually what you're doing though, Kath. So, we need to just own it and go with it." >> And I, you know, I even remember speaking to someone saying, you know,

00:19:38

I'm starting a vegan handbag brand. And she said, and she's, you know, pretty substantial person in the industry. And she said, but you're not going to call it a vegan brand, are you? And I said, well, yeah, like that's what it is. But, you know, you got to keep in mind that that's like 2017. And even then, yes, there were vegan brands around. It's not like we're, you know, super pioneer, but there weren't nearly as many as there are now. And veganism e even as a diet

00:20:04

or as a it's actually not a diet, as an ethical choice in life has become so much more popular, has become, you know, education is definitely rampant. People know so much more about how animals are treated and the environmental impact of it and the ethical impact of it. So even yeah, back then it was definitely seen as a big risk. But I was just like, I'm just going hard at this. I'm just going to go hard and see what happens. I I certainly had a couple of snide remarks of, oh, you know, you're certainly

00:20:32

riding the very popular wave. Like everything's about veganism now. And I was like, yeah, it's not really about that, though. This is this is actually pure me. Like I don't eat animals. I don't buy any more animal products as far as fashion goes. and it's in line with how I'm living my life. And so I had to create a job for myself cuz initially I thought I'm like someone's got to employ me. Oh, okay. I'll employ myself. Um initially I thought if I'm going to go for another senior job,

00:20:59

maybe I can convince the board just to do, you know, um non leather um accessories. And I thought that's just delusional, Catholic, if you're going to do it, you need to do this yourself. >> So you felt like your mind lit up, your heart lit up, and it made sense internally. >> Definitely. And it's not like there was no resistance. I mean, my partner John was from the beginning was saying, "Don't start a business. Don't start a business." I said, "No, no, I'm

00:21:20

definitely starting a business." Yeah. >> Why do you think John didn't want you to start a business? >> He was he's been there for a long time and he saw the whole progression of my time at Mimco and going from head of design to creative director to managing director and the steep learning curve that I had to go on to adopt more skills and, you know, there were 14-hour days, there were weekends, like I gave it everything. I gave it everything, which is also back to the stress and

00:21:44

maybe how I spoke to people at times. He doesn't he doesn't want me to be a stressed person. >> Yeah. >> But um and I'm definitely it's a different sort of stress though. It's not um I don't feel like a a ball of stress. I feel like there's there's there's some anxiety sometimes, but I think when you're committed to an ethos and you're committed to a purpose and you're committed to the reason the brand actually exists, >> um, and you're honest about that with

00:22:09

yourself and with your community, I think that alleviates the small things. >> Yeah. >> You know, like cash flow, those small things. >> Yes. Now, I know you're hardcore on integrity. hardcore and integrity meaning that you will not compromise on products. You will not compromise on your beliefs, your values, things that are dear to you. And therefore, that comes through the brands. Now, before we get to integrity, because there's a lot I want to unpack with that, you typically don't see high fashion brands

00:22:40

converging with what's deemed as activism. However, you merged high fashion and aesthetics with activist ethics. Yeah, >> that's a rare mix. How do you balance it so when it shows up in the market, people are open to it? >> I do my best to accept that we're not going to be for everyone. And I would say that I'm much more comfortable with that than I was maybe five or so years ago. >> Really? >> Yeah. I think I um philosophically thought that I was comfortable with that

00:23:11

when I first started the business. But then, you know, you you get attached to sales and you you know, you want things to sell better and so you think maybe we should not mention vegan so much and maybe we should just, you know, they're really just cool bags and yeah, it's got an active it's got a it's got a um underpinning ethos which is for the animals and we'll continue our charity alignments, but maybe we just won't be so, you know, loud and proud about this. >> Fashion first. By the way, it's vegan

00:23:35

versus, hey, we're vegan. >> Yeah. >> By the way, the bags are cool. >> Yeah. Exactly. I'm still mindful of the words that we use, but I'm way less concerned as to whether we piss a few people off. >> Okay? >> You know, I think that whole notion of minimal viable audience is really key. I don't think we're necessarily going to be going for we're not going for a broad corridor of people. We're not going to have a handbag sitting on everyone's

00:23:57

table across Australia and across the globe. We're not high street mainstream volume business. We are there with a purpose and an ethos and I think cool product and a voice and an authentic approach and that's going to appeal to people and it's also going to piss some people off and that's okay. >> Yeah, >> that's okay. >> Why is it okay to piss people off? >> I think to have a voice and an opinion means that you're not sitting middle of the road. I mean, I think it's it's easy

00:24:26

to be a lukewarm person, but I just don't think Well, firstly, that's just not me. I think I think I prefer to have great love and risk great dislike than to be someone that's forgettable and a brand that's forgettable because it neither instills love nor does it People are just apathetic. I don't really want apathy. I want strength of conviction from people. I want someone saying, >> "I bloody love Sans Beast. That brand is fantastic. And did you know that they also have charity alignments?" And you

00:24:57

know, people comment on my bag all the time. and then we'll get people that are, you know, that have got opposite views. I just think you got to like yourself and you got to you got to have opinions in life and you've got to um you know if you're going to have a business that is based on those opinions and those ethoses or that ethos then I think shouting it loud and proud. It's both a decision based on being true to oneself, but I think it's also a wise commercial decision because as the world gets more

00:25:28

homogenized and as brands will start to look like each other, the ones that actually stand for something, I think have got more chance of longevity than those that are literally just putting fod out into the world with no opinion whatsoever. In today's market, you could say that every legacy fashion house claims to be sustainable, responsible, eco-friendly. How do you improve your integrity in the market when so many competitors are saying the same thing, but they might not mean it? >> I think those words have become very

00:25:59

overused, particularly sustainability. Um, I think my approach is to be um upfront and and use real words. Um, like vegan leather, for example, I don't really like that term because, you know, that could mean so many different things. I think, um, I'm not shy about saying that it's a certified recycled synthetic and that, you know, plastic bottles have been recycled and used as a substrate and that it's a polyurethane coating on the surface. And of course, we're going to get people saying, "Oh,

00:26:28

so it's just plastic, is it?" It's like, well, do you shop at the supermarket? Do you shop at Mecca and buy, you know, packaging that's made of plastic? Do you go to Bunnings? Do you have polyurethane paint on your walls? It's like, >> have you sat in your car? >> Have you sat in your car? Have you picked up your iPhone? I mean, we are surrounded by it. If anything, I think we should be putting our passions and our energies towards figuring out how we can recycle that cuz it is

00:26:50

everywhere. You know, when you challenge a legacy industry like leather, you're going to upset a few people because then you've got people saying, "Don't tell me that I can't have my burger. Don't tell me I can't have my bacon." You know, it really is it really is an a brand that spans fashion and um ethics and no one wants to feel like they're an No one wants to feel like they're doing the wrong thing in life. >> You know, some would argue that they're

00:27:19

tired of brands preaching their agenda, their opinion, or virtue signaling what they should do and what you should do. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, we've seen a lot of resistance around this recently with with certain brands. Has this made any challenges for you in the brand? Personally, >> it makes me stop and think about our communication and how we're talking to people. Um, from the beginning, I've definitely not wanted the brand to be preachy. >> It is difficult though to manage. It's

00:27:47

impossible actually to manage how someone's going to hear your words or be be they written or spoken. You know, someone can make I can be talking about the ex mass exploitation of animals that exists across the planet both in the oceans and on the land and someone can hear that as being preachy and all I'm doing is talking about the fact that it's an opaque supply chain and animals are treated appallingly and a lot of most people don't know about it. That's not preaching as far as I'm concerned.

00:28:14

That's just talking. >> Yeah. >> So, I can't control people's responses to what we say. Um, we would never say um, don't buy leather, it's evil, buy our products. The approach that I've taken is authentic, straight talking. We are there as an alternative. And there are some, you know, some people even on, particularly on Facebook, actually, not so much Instagram, but Facebook's a particular, you know, thing as far as how people put their comments out there.

00:28:43

Um, I think my response is always when that when there is a little bit of negative commentary is just to reiterate that we are an alternative and if one doesn't want to buy animal skin handbags, we are one of of several bag brands that are in the world that they can choose from because you know people say but it's a byproduct of the of the food industry. Um, and my view is not all of us are eating meat. Not all all of us are eating dairy and we still want a cool bag to carry. >> Yeah. So I just think if people hear

00:29:12

that as preaching then that's their problem not mine. >> Yeah. People are always going to have opinions about everything no matter what anyway. So yeah. >> Yeah. Now you operate in the retail sector driven by rapid consumption, cheap materials and high margins. How do you remain integral when it seems like most of the market aren't? >> Well, I think that's a key reason why we're just not going to ever be like a, you know, a rocket that goes like this as far as sales. I mean where you know I

00:29:43

I understand product development very deeply having worked in it for a long long time and I understand that the cost of a product is the material the labor um and the hardware and you know we can use materials that are not super expensive and we can add value by the pattern making the hardware and the the labor that goes into making a tricky bag or we can use more expensive materials and we can keep the labor a little bit lower by doing a simple bag. Like it's all it's all mathematics when it comes

00:30:14

to how you product develop. There are cheap brands that will use cheap materials, cheap labor. They don't care where they're making it. They don't care how much people are paid to make it. And they'll just flood the market with volume product. You know, we're not making high volumes. We don't have great negotiation power with the factory as a result of that. So I think how we maintain integrity is putting a lot of bloody work into how we design product. How we match the material, the hardware

00:30:41

and the labor together to make something that we think is an excessively priced product. We also don't have um I know accessories margins because I've worked with them for a long time across jewelry, shoes, bags, hats, gloves, scarves, hair accessories like and then I worked in apparel before that. Like I know margins. Our margin is, I think, a a humble margin, a respectable margin based on what I think the RRP can be for that product. I mean, you know, hopefully in time it can be a better GM,

00:31:08

but at the moment it's where I think it should be. And it's obsessing over all those levels to make sure that material makers are being paid appropriately, that the manufacturers are being paid appropriately, and that we can keep our business financially sustainable for the future. Someone close to me said to me recently their ambition of, "Hey, I want to make a million dollars." Before they had any revenue in their business, they were looking for an investor. And I said to them, "You don't need an investor right

00:31:36

now. You need to make your first $1,000." >> Yeah. >> And they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but I said, think to yourself right now, today, how can you make $1,000?" And they're like, "I don't know." I said, "Solve that problem first and then work your way to a million cuz here's why. Right now you don't have money and it's just you. But if you can make a thousand, you can make 10. If you can make 10, you can make a hundred. And

00:31:59

this I'm not trying to make it >> simple, but I was trying to help this person understand that you're the powerhouse right now. You don't need some external third party to give you capital to move. You need to move. >> Yeah. >> When you think about people that aspire to have wealth and you can say that, well, money's everywhere. What's what's the lesson there that people need to understand? Well, I think it's all about, you know, what um what we desire in life. And I think,

00:32:28

you know, I'm just as guilty of liking nice things and liking to stay in nice hotels and liking to travel as, you know, the next person who's checking in on a business class flight. I don't want to sound disingenuous and say, you know, I'm comfortable with a simple life. Like, I mean, I like nice things for sure. It's all about how much you think you need in life. I think that generally determines, you know, how much is enough, I guess, is the bigger question. I want to be able to give myself a

00:32:55

living, John a living, a few people that, you know, work for us. I want to be able to continue to travel. I want to be able to continue to invest in new materials that are coming to market that challenge legacy leather industry. I want to continue to be able to afford to create content that I think is compelling and interesting and grow the story of the brand. And if I can do that, that's that's enough for me. Um, and when I said that money is around, I think that I I truly believe that if I'd wanted to get investors and

00:33:26

I'd put a good debt together and I went and, you know, talked to various people, I'm pretty confident I would have been able to get it. I mean, I don't know. I've never tested that theory. Um, but it has been the right thing for me to invest in myself. >> Yeah, I like that. There was a a moment I had when I was younger and I I had the opportunity to spend time with this gentleman who was a billionaire from the States. He owned a telecom company and you wouldn't know it. He was wearing a

00:33:53

pair of thongs, ripped jeans and an AC/DC t-shirt. But we went out for coffee and I was I was expressing to him I was frustrated at this point. So, I was 19 at the time and I was like, "I really want to make money one day. I want to be wealthy like you." And he goes, "Money's everywhere." And I'm like, "I'm not seeing it." And he goes, "All right, let's look." We went for a walk down the street. He goes, "How much is that car worth?" I

00:34:15

was like, "Uh, 100 grand. What about that one? 200. What's that apartment worth? 4 million. What's that apartment worth? 10." And he's like, "Let's keep walking." He just He was pointing out light posts and pavement and windows and products in stores. He's like, "Money is everywhere." >> Yeah. >> You have got to change your perspective on where to put yourself because you're right now not in the position of the faucet. I was like, "The position of the

00:34:42

faucet?" He's like, "Money flows, but you're outside the flow." >> Yeah. >> So, when you think about money as like an energy source or a flow state or or whatever, how can someone better position themselves to catch >> catch the money? >> Catch the money. Where should they where should they put their mindset? I think first and foremost you got to decide what you want in life. You can position yourself with certain people that are in those circles and those people are

00:35:05

pretty easy to identify. Having an idea and backing yourself to begin with and getting seen by those people, you know, is a I mean that's why those dragon things exist, I guess. What do they call it? >> Dragon's Den or >> those sorts of things. Nothing. >> That's a great Yeah, there's a faucet there. >> Yeah, there's a faucet. Yeah, I don't want to be in that faucet. Um, for me I, you know, and I think this sounds a little bit hippie, but I mean, I think health is bloody part of wealth.

00:35:33

And, you know, I'm older than you are. And I think as the years go on, you are reminded that, you know, having bodily health and mental health, um, and all your capacities about you is way more important than killing yourself to get an extra 10 mil. Well said. >> That's that's my viewpoint. >> I would agree. Now I want to talk about the discipline of saying no. >> When I think about e-commerce, it seems like the whole ecosystem from the way I understand it and the brands I've worked

00:36:08

with is a bit of a religion around hyperrowth. >> Y >> uh scaling fast, rapid acceleration, massive buyouts, acquisitions. >> Yeah. Why is rapid scaling potentially dangerous for a modern fashion brand? >> Well, I think anything that burns hot is going to get cold at some stage. Like I don't want to be a rapid, you know, growth machine that is the the hottest thing around because if you're too hot, then I do think at some stage you're going to go cold >> because hype is not real.

00:36:43

>> Exactly. And it's not it's not based on integrity or a belief system or a um um a true attachment to that. I mean, you know, I talked about Dre and Acne to begin with. Like, I have loved those brands for 20 years. They've had longevity because they've >> they've had integrity in their in >> let's not talk materials, but in their um in their design aesthetic and in their storytelling like they've just been willing to stand aside apart from the crowd, I would say. So not you know

00:37:12

huge store rollouts that's just you know two examples. So I think rapid growth looks great on paper and it can certainly attract investors. I I'm definite of that. Um but you know that like I think growth has to be sustainable. There has to be something when you scratch the surface. >> Um and there's a lot of you know we can look at a lot of legacy retailers in Australia that have been around for a while. >> Yeah. >> And you know >> they they're not doing so well now. So,

00:37:41

I think it's all well and good to have a a brand that's, you know, everyone's talking about and, you know, oh my god, you need to be doing blah blah or be looking at blah blah blah. It's like, yeah, let's just see whether they're going to be around in 5 years. You know, have they got enough foundational brand call they call them ethics or personality traits or um values that set them up for success for the future? What's your advice to those who have had a slow burn or have even had the

00:38:11

difficulty of getting traction and they're trying to enter your space? >> Well, there's I mean I don't know whether I've got advice because I think um I would say so much of being able to stick around has got to do with your um your cash flow >> really. >> Yes. and you know to be able to take care of the slower months or the slower weeks when things are you know happening things are not happening rather um I think having you know multiple skill sets in your you know feathers in your cap whatever

00:38:44

you want to call it like being able to do as much in your own business as possible not needing to pay others to do a lot of the tasks I think is a way to stick around when um when things are particularly brutal. You know, the economy is particularly brutal right now. >> Oh yeah. >> Like geopolitically there's a lot going down. Um obviously interest rates, all the rest of it. Like retail is going through a tough time and you've only got to walk through a shopping center and see how much stock is in all the stores

00:39:12

and how few people are actually shopping to know that it's a brutal time to be in business. So I think um having enough cash flow to deal with the um the doldrums, you know, not being there not being a lot of wind in the sales um is a key element as well as being able just to take care of yourself with be it your marketing, your product, your production, your finances, whatever you got to do, >> right? >> Skills, multiple skills. >> So there's an additional pressure with

00:39:41

the fashion scene as well outside of just let's say e-commerce or product based businesses. the traditional fashion industry is conditioning founders to do drop shell collections pretty consistently. >> Um, do you disagree with this? Have you tried to stay away from getting stuck in that cycle? >> I mean, we've never been fast fashioned. We've never done like multiple drops throughout the year. We do two major drops, but then within those two drops, we'll do two deliveries. Um, and that

00:40:10

has waned over time. And then it was about middle of last year and I just thought I'm sick of this new delivery even though we were pretty slow fashion compared to a lot of businesses. Um we're just going to stop ordering for the moment and just work on what we've actually got. Um and not be so attached to new collection, new collection, new collection when really when you do the analysis, it's the signature product that is the best seller every single every single week. It's the product that

00:40:36

people have come to trust and recognize about your brand versus the new hot thing. The new hot thing is usually an ego trip of the designer, which you know, in my instance has been me. We need, you know, and even when I've had people working for me, like I've directed to, you know, let's get this, let's get this shape in or let's try whatever like a new a new idea. Um, and I get it. Like the shiny new object or the new puppy is very exciting to play with, but really classic product,

00:41:08

signature product or core product is usually what keeps the lights on. >> I I just think it's so unusual as well because I think it was somewhere I was reading that Louis Vuitton made about 76 78% of their profit from wallets and belts. >> I don't doubt it. I I would not doubt that. I mean all luxury um is is making their money from accessories. >> Yes. >> Accessories, perfume. >> Have Have you had the urge to expand your product suite? >> Definitely. Yeah, definitely. But those

00:41:41

urges are to be ignored. >> Why Why is it so dangerous to not go so wide so early? >> Oh, because it just burns cash. I mean, you know, and I've tried different things over the years and I've gotten and I still get excited like I, you know, there's certain things that I want to do and we might do some of those things, but we need to do them in a contained, disciplined manner and not get excited about, you know, volume in those areas because we are at the moment a handbag business and we have a good

00:42:10

following in the handbag space and it's about small iterations on best-selling items and a little bit of provolity in some new shapes, but We need to minimize the risk by, you know, how much we order in those pieces. Um, you know, I can do clothing, I can do shoes, I can do jewelry, I can do all those things. Um, but doesn't mean I should do them. >> Okay, let's think about how in e-commerce people look for an AOV, meaning the average order value. Let's say someone's >> checking out on one product worth $80.

00:42:45

If you can fatten it up by having accessories and getting that AOV up to 155, it means more profit. It means you can scale more, hire more people. >> What's your thoughts on building a brand strategy around increasing your AOV? >> Oh, I'm I'm on board with that. I just think I think the product strategy needs to be consistent with the brand ethos. If you're a shoe brand and you introduce socks, makes sense. If you're a shoe brand and you introduce, you know, interesting shoelaces, you know, or a a

00:43:13

cleaner for the material of some like a leather protector for one of a better term. I think there's products that make sense for businesses and there's products that just look like you're just trying to keep the design team busy. >> Yeah. >> Cuz you've employed them so that you need to keep putting out new product. >> Yeah. >> And I think I think product takes time to settle in the consumer's mind. You know, they need time to recognize the product that that belongs to that

00:43:40

brand and they need time to build trust in that product. And if you're churning out product all the time, then that brand doesn't mean so much to them. You're just a provider of fodder to them, >> right? >> The high street, you know, mainstream businesses. >> Do you feel that social media has put more pressure on brands to create more material, more products as well? Because you've got to make content every day. you've got to take photos, do campaigns. It it feels like,

00:44:08

>> you know, if you were a brand and you started in the 70s, the ' 80s or 90s, you could have a great product and just rely on retail, whereas now you got to smash social media and always have something new to show. >> Yeah, I do think that, but I think that um I think we get confused about what new is and we think that it means, you know, a whole new a whole new product range that you're offering someone. You can shoot the same product in a different way and people see it in a

00:44:34

different way. Like you know that whole thing about people need to be told something seven times before it actually resonates with them. Like there's ways of refreshing a product to yeah show people to remind them that it exists and to show a different angle of it. And I think we can all get into our own heads about oh it's got to be a new collection. It's got to be a new color. It's got to be a new new new new new. And it doesn't give other products or your main collection, your signature

00:45:00

collection, what whatever you want to call it, it doesn't give that enough time to rest and to solidify. Like there's like the row in the states. Like I mean they they have like three bag shapes and they've been doing them for years and years and years. Like yeah, I don't I don't think it's about new new. I think we can delude ourselves that we've become these social media machines, but that can just be about messaging. It can be about words. It can be about stories or as I say it can be

00:45:27

about a different angle of that product. >> Have you aspired to have that timeless classic for example like Doc Martens or Ron Williams or there those staple products that stand the test of time? >> Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean look, we're we've been trading for nearly eight years and established for nearly nine years. So I still think, you know, we're a young brand. like there's still a lot to do to establish that um we do have an aesthetic, but I I want to continue to refine the brand codes, the

00:45:56

brand aesthetic to ensure that we um do have shapes that are that are known. You know, I'm pretty I'm a pretty harsh judge on those things. So, I'm not standing here or sitting here in your very comfortable tactile chair um saying that we're there yet. You know, I think signature product takes time. Like true brand codes take time to solidify in people's minds. >> Yeah. Like the Red Bottoms, I think that uh what brand was that? >> Louis Vuitton. Like the Red Bottoms,

00:46:25

>> they weren't around at the beginning. The brand had matured and done a lot and >> Yeah. >> in the in the early days until they landed on something. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean that Yeah. He >> is that but like as a designer do you aspire to have that where you're like yeah we like made that staple that >> no one knows what's going to be the pivotal identifying factor of a brand I'm not sure Margela when he or him or someone in his team came up with the

00:46:49

four stitches that are on the back of a sweater I don't know Martin Mela Belgian designer that's you know known for never showing his face in interviews like he's like the you know >> like Darth mystical exactly um you know I think designers and creators has come up with these motifs and they become signature but after the fact and you know everyone likes to tell the story that you know I knew it was going to be like this amazing you know thing that it was known for. I mean who knows whether

00:47:16

Tom Brown with the stripe thing you know knew that that was going to become pivotal >> the the red, white and blue little stripe that's on everything. >> Now it's iconic. >> It's iconic. Yeah. As as is um you know their stores with the the Louver window things, the louver you know amazing amazing amazing. >> Yeah. But you don't you don't know that those those codes will become recognizable until >> until they are. >> Yeah. And oftentimes it's uh not luck

00:47:42

but uh >> it is a lot of luck. >> I I think so. I I think you know if you look at >> if you look at Rayban it was Tom Cruz in that movie where he's dancing in his socks. >> Yeah. >> That saved the brand before that. >> Risky business. >> Yep. That's it. Risky business. So it was Tom Cruz in risky business in his lounge room underpants and socks dancing. >> So not a sexy look. I don't know why the hell that made that business but >> but I remember reading somewhere that

00:48:10

the brand was really struggling and then they just so happened to wear that in the film and then sales skyrocketed. Everyone wanted to be like Tom Cruz. >> It's amazing, isn't it? >> It's crazy. >> It's a moment in time that can just make a business. >> We just got to get you in a movie. >> Yeah. If these fast fashion, not that you're fast fashion giants are churning out endless product categories, using cheap materials and ripped off aesthetics and designs, do you think

00:48:36

that having discipline and restriction around your design allows it to be a better design and it allows you to be a better designer? >> I do think that from a personal satisfaction perspective and from a business perspective, I'm not sure. Well, I would I would actually suggest that a lot of customers don't care. You know, there's too many high street businesses that are turning out fast fashion that are doing well to suggest that the customer is super focused on slow fashion and, you know, design

00:49:08

product that's designed from the ground up and wear tested and, you know, all the effort that goes into it. There's too many businesses that are that are on fire um turnurning out generic product to suggest that customers care that much about it. But from a personal satisfaction point of view, yes, I think it is much more rewarding to go slow and to build build carefully and with thought and with intention and with good sourcing and um at at a pace that's sustainable. >> Yeah. Now, what about public pressure or

00:49:41

even worse, consumer pressure? So, a lot of your engaged customers have actually begged you to launch shoes. >> Yeah. >> And accessories. How do you say no when the demand is right there in front of you? >> Well, what people ask for and what they end up paying for are two different things generally speaking. So, you know, you have to be a little bit of a witch. U which I am one. And you have to be able to disseminate what they're asking for and what is going to be feasible for

00:50:08

the marketplace. And I think um like shoes is a bit of a an obvious one for us. We should definitely do shoes. However, shoes are a sized business and handbags are not a sized business. >> Oh, yes. >> So, that adds skew count and depth of ordering that, you know, would just be a pain. Um, >> FYI, I'm I'm setting up a shoe brand as we speak. I'm experiencing all of this. >> Yeah, shoes are shoes are tough. And we launched shoes at Mimco. Um after private equity bought Mimco one of the

00:50:38

growth initiatives was do shoes and um you know we didn't do a brilliant job of it and we had many iterations and certainly after I left the business um they kept going but then they ended up stopping that category. Shoes are tough and the intake margin is lower than in the handbags or jewelry categories. So financially it's tough. There's big investment with setting up constructions and lasts. So you need to be really bloody committed if you want to do shoes. Um, and I love shoes. Like I have

00:51:07

a huge shoe collection and so it would be a natural affinity for me to go into the shoes space, but um, I wouldn't do it um, unless I felt that we had something different to offer. And right, you know, resource-wise, mental, energy wise, we're not there at this stage. So, how do I deal with customers asking for it? I say maybe one day. Maybe one day. But it's, you know, it's a tricky category to get into. And you know, generally speaking, people don't understand how hard these things are to

00:51:36

get off the ground, right? >> They're just like, you know, can you do this? As if it's like wave a magic wand. >> Do you have an opinion on brands that have a proclivity to source suppliers and then just resell them and put their branding on top of it versus someone like yourself who's actually designing their own product? >> You know, there are faster ways to make money than what we're doing as a business, for sure. And I think you can there are so many factories out there,

00:52:03

so many factories that you can go to and you can look at their showroom or you can look at their catalog and you can say I want that but maybe well maybe no changes just put my brand name on it or I want that with a different bag strap on it or you know that's in bags. You can do you can do that with any category basically. Um you know and China is a huge huge manufacturing location um destination where you can find pretty much anything you want. Um, so I think I do what you want to do with your

00:52:35

business, but from our point of view, it's it's never been the way that I want to build the business. I think there's >> I think there's joy to be found in intention in intentionally building product. You know, that's >> and I've hired a lot of designers in my Mimco days and also, you know, in the Sansb days. We don't have one working with us at the moment, but I know, you know, these these people go to school to study design and proportion and color and materials. And I've seen them go

00:53:03

into a lot of those individuals go into mainstream businesses where they're just told to copy. >> They're just told to travel, buy someone else's sample, put it into a factory, make a few tweaks, and it's disenfranchising and it's disabling, and it's not inspiring at all. So, I think there's joy in sketching and creating and getting a prototype and tweaking it. >> So, for someone listening right now who has a dream to create their own products, um, do you think that we're living in an era

00:53:32

where that's easier than ever or more complicated than ever? >> Yeah, I think it's easier than ever. Um, but easy doesn't necessarily mean we should be doing it. I think um you know if I look at RMIT in Melbourne for example and um you know the graduates that are coming through with their collections so many of them are taking materials that already exist so many of them are doing upycling with things that already exist in the world. Yes. >> So I think um I think that starting

00:53:59

something with new materials like virgin materials versus recycled materials or even materials that you could you know disassemble from something else. I think um everyone's going to do what they want to do obviously, but I think there's more scope for someone starting something that is using things that already exist in the world somehow. >> Bren, I want to dive into product because for you product is king >> and when I talk >> product is queen. >> I like that product is queen. Uh let's

00:54:32

start with the fundamentals. What makes a good product? For me, everything starts with raw materials. Whatever category you're working in, the raw materials as in um you know, is it the chain for jewelry? Is it the stones that you're going to inlay into, you know, a motif as a central thing on a necklace or earrings? Is it leather? Is it a non-anim animal leather? Is it your fabric? Is it a woven? Is it a knit? Where is the yarn come from? All those things like the raw material is the central point.

00:55:03

>> Why is that the central point? Why must you start there? Well, because of the first and foremost the impact on the environment or the being that that material has come from is I think key. Uh secondly, quality. Um and then longevity is obviously linked to that as well. >> And then commercially like >> price price is you know the raw material makes up like 30% of your of your FOB price generally speaking. >> And FOB is >> free on board. So that's the price that

00:55:34

you're paying from the factory. Okay. So unless you're working with an agent in Australia that's bringing the goods in for you and it's FIS, it's generally FOB. >> And what's FIS? >> Um free into store I think it stands for. So they will bring it in, they will deal with the freight and the duties. >> Um and FOB is just getting it to the dock. Okay. >> Getting it to the freight forer for one of a better term. >> Yeah. So you would encourage everyone

00:55:56

look at your materials first whether it be plastic or or what whatever >> anything you know be it be it a synthetic be it linen be it cotton be it wool be it as I said in jewelry you know the chain um the stones like all those things are key and then obviously they are also there's a there's a resource impact on the planet and there's usually not usually always there's people that work in those supply chains you know where are the stones coming from? Have they been pulled out of the earth by a

00:56:28

child? You know, like I think it's important to ask those questions as to where the materials are actually coming from. But purely commercial, it's quality, longevity, and price. >> Quality, longevity, and price. So, let's go through each of those. >> And also, sorry, the other thing is the raw materials. Are you matching the raw materials to the shape that you want to make? You know, is it is it appropriate for those materials to be made into that shape? >> Interesting. because I think that's key

00:56:54

as well as to how it's going to turn out. >> Right? When we interviewed the uh founders of Memo Bottle, they were talking about this as well. The certain plastics and what you could and couldn't do with shapes were something that they'd spent tremendous amount of resources on getting right. Yes. >> Yeah. >> To mold it into the right shape. >> So, if you're creating your own product, first look at the materials. Secondly, look at the shape and what you can do

00:57:16

with it. >> Yeah. You know, what's the vision? What's what's the aesthetic that you're going for? Then if you are thinking outside of um materials and shape, what else should you be very considerate of at the beginning? >> Uh minimums for those materials, you know, how much you actually have to commit to. Um and the minimums can be linked to what that what that supplier actually has to make in order for them to make a profit out of it. It could be linked to the m the machines that they

00:57:43

have to use to make that product. It could be linked to the yarn that they're using either to knit it or to weave it. Um the colors that that is available in as well. Are the are there minimums attached to that? Um the lead times also key as far as how long it takes to actually make that. What if it sells really well and you need to get back into it? How is that relevant to your product development critical path? I mean actually raw materials are like pivotal. Understanding raw materials, where they come from, how they're made,

00:58:16

how much they cost, how much time they take to make is pivotal. The next step is the actual aesthetic, the designing. And in the raw materials, there's trims as well. It's not just the actual base fabric. So, what are trims? >> Um, buttons, zips, zip pullers, D-rings, press studs, um, thread, edge paint. I mean there's there's a lot of things that go into, you know, just making that one shoe. Like there's so much in the supply chain of making fashion, be it apparel or accessories, that because

00:58:51

things have become so fast in the industry, I think there's a there's a there's a misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge about how many steps go into actually getting that product from here onto the shop shelf. >> How many steps are we talking about, do you think? It's a lot, right? >> It's a lot. And you know, freight in between all of those processes to get that button to the factory, to get that button from, you know, a mold, be it a plastic mold or a shell button to um

00:59:20

into the shape that it needs to be made and then to into the colors that it needs to be made and is that color born out of nature or is that been dyed and then to get it to the factory and then to stitch it onto that product and then to get that product shipped to the end customer. That's not hundreds of steps. That's a few steps, but like think about that for every different element. >> Yes. >> You know, it makes it a very long supply chain. And because so many of us are making products not down the road, we're

00:59:46

making them in China or in Italy or in, you know, wherever. We don't see that happening like we did maybe 30 years ago in Australia or in America, you know, as an example. So, we have a detachment to the product development process and it just appears like fairies have made it. >> You just click a button on the internet and it shows up. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Send me samples. Damn it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't like my samples. Send me more. >> Yeah. And I I can't bear that attitude.

01:00:16

I just, you know, that's another conversation just about how we treat manufacturers. >> How do people mistreat manufacturers and how should they think about it instead? >> Um, as partners. They should think of them as manufacturing partners because they are integral to how your product turns out. >> And so often a brief goes off and it's a halfbaked brief brief you know a tech pack like you know a sketch is these are the materials these are the trims that I want and it comes in looking average and

01:00:46

the the manufacturer is blamed. You know the samples haven't come in the way I wanted them. Or if it comes in looking great and it's still a halfbaked brief, but the manufacturer has taken it upon themselves because they're artisans and they're skilled and they're they're good pattern makers and they know how to do things. It comes in looking great. The brand or the designer pats themselves on the pats himself on the back and says, you know, that came in great. There's no

01:01:07

credit necessarily given to the manufacturer, right? So, I think they need to be viewed as a as a partner and that partner is going to make mistakes and they're also going to give you wins. And if you work respectfully with them and recognize that they need to make a profit, you need to make a profit and you can come to the table with that um egalitarian sort of viewpoint, I think it can be a long-term relationship. Now, I would agree with that because when you think about the factories and

01:01:36

partners you need to work with, it's kind of nuts that they're making a fundamental product and then shipping it to you without you ever having much of a relationship. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I've I have good relationships with our manufacturer and I've had been fortunate to have great relationships over the years, both with material makers and with um with factories or manufacturers and and as I said at the beginning, I've I've worked with businesses that have valued that

01:02:03

and have nurtured that and have done appropriate audits. Um, but I've certainly come across a lot of people that have sourced their manufacturer via um, Ali Barber or whatever it's called. >> Yeah. >> Um, and have got no idea who they are, have not sat across the table from them, have not invested in going and sitting across the table from them >> and then are very quick to brutalize them when you know things go wrong. Now, you were telling me a story before we sat down and started the show, which was

01:02:32

that uh you were on a trip to the US and you decided it would be fun to make a stop over in Mexico. Yes. >> And go and check out uh >> I planned that before I went to America. >> But yes. Yes. >> Now, do you mind talking us through that cuz I found this interesting how much energy you contribute to understanding materials, where they come from, how they're made, and how you may be able to implement them into your an aesthetic. Yeah. Uh, so that was specifically related to Deserto Pelle, which is a

01:03:02

Mexican business who do the cactus leather or the alternative leather >> and the >> It's crazy what they're doing, by the way. >> Yeah. The two guys that started that, they they launched it in 2019 and I'd read about them and I liked the swatches that I'd seen and I knew that I was going to LA in 2020 and I thought it's just a little hop, skip, and a jump down to Guadalara, so I'll just do that. And I asked the guys to take me to their the coating factory

01:03:28

which is where they coat the substrate to give it the faux leather look and they wouldn't take me there. They said there's IP that you know they weren't allowed to take me there even though I begged and came at it from all different angles. They kept saying Katherine no. But they said we will take you to the cactus fields. So I went to Gualahara. They drove me out to Zakatus which is where they grow the um the cactus or the nopal. Um, and I met the farmer, Francisco, um, who grows it and they

01:03:53

showed me how fast it grows and that it's natural rain water that makes sure that it gets water. Um, so it's very, it's good environmentally and um, and it grows it, you know, replenishes very quickly. And then they take it off, they cut it out, and then they dry it in the sun, the natural sun, and then they built a machine that pulverizes it all. And then it turns it to powder. And then they can mix that with a PU, polyurethane. At the time, they've done a lot with their materials

01:04:22

over time to the point where they're now like 90% biio-based, and then they coat that onto a substrate to to to create a a leather alternative, so to speak. And that was 2020, and they've come a long way since then. Um, and now there's, you know, there's there's those that do a similar thing, but with apple pulp, with olive pulp. Um, my my bag at the moment is made from olive leather. Um, grapes. Yeah, there's all sorts of things happening with plants. >> It's amazing. I think it's just what

01:04:52

people are able to accomplish with this type of thing. Now when you take into account the aesthetic, does understanding the raw materials help understand how you can flex or experiment as a designer with the aesthetic? >> Yes, definitely. I think you know understanding raw materials but also understanding construction. So I my one of my earlier jobs in apparel was knitwear and when you're making the sweater you like you're making the fabric as you're making the garment because you have to it's knitting,

01:05:22

right? You're taking a yarn and you're knitting panels that become the sweater. So you have to you have to understand the gauge of the machine that you're putting it on. You have to understand tension. You have to understand the washing because you know it affects pilling. It affects the hand fill. So for me I you know it's it's understanding all those technical attributes that allows you to become innovative. You know, if you can understand the technical attributes of how something is actually

01:05:49

made, you can start breaking some rules along the way. >> Versus if I buy a Miumu bag and I say, I just want to copy that bag and I'm not really interested in how it's actually made. All you've got to work with is that designer's bag that you're copying versus, I understand that that leather is this sort of material. I understand that it's been piped around the edges. I understand that it's been embossed on the front. Right. Well, I reckon I'm going to do an all over emboss or I'm

01:06:15

going to do a piping that's actually twice the size cuz I want it to look like cartoony and a bit, you know, um, out of proportion. I understand that's a tubular handle. Well, I'm actually going to put knots in it because I know you can do that cuz there's rope on the inside of that. Do you know what I mean? Like it's you can only riff if you know how things are built. And for me, learning how things are built is like it's exciting. Like that's that's that's a fun part about being a creative. I

01:06:41

think >> you're getting me excited for real. Yeah. I'm like, damn, I want to learn about how to make bags >> and and piping that looks cartoony. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So then raw materials, then aesthetic and knowing the boundaries in what you can and can't do. Then what? >> Um well, I guess I mean, you know, there's the sketch and obviously, you know, some people do that with hand sketching, some people do that with um Illustrator. Bloody AI is just doing all

01:07:06

sorts of stuff for people now and they don't even have to put pen to paper. Bit of a sad loss I think that one because I think pen to paper is a cathartic thing to do. Um it's sketching and then it's briefing. So measurements obviously are important to be able to give that to the factory you know and a lot of factories don't even need that. They just need a looks like feels like this is what I want to achieve. Which takes me back to the manufacturing partner though because they the good factories actually know

01:07:30

how to interpret a sketch and bring excellence to the prototype. >> Interesting. Okay. >> Then there's the prototyping. You get that in, you fit it, you see whether it's comfortable, does it hang properly, does it wear properly? Do some wear testing to make sure the material works in that end use. And I say the material in that end use because at the beginning when I talked about picking the raw material that's based on what you want to achieve, you know, is it um like in

01:07:54

clothing, is it a is it a rigid coat that you sort of hang like is really heavy and um is not fluid? then you're not going to probably choose a material that is fluid, you know, or is it something that you want to have a lot of movement to it. It it it it's it's impacted material and shape go hand in hand. Yeah. Prototyping, where testing, costing, and then you do the iterative process from there. Do you need to de-engineer it? Do you need to add more to it? Um, and where things go wrong, I think, in

01:08:26

business is in design teams is a lack of understanding as to all the different elements that need to come together to make that product work, both commercially and aesthetically and quality-wise. You know, I just want to sketch the product. Yeah, but you need to know how much it costs. >> Yeah, but I just want to sketch it. You know, like it's it needs to be designer, production, raw materials coming together and respecting each other and understanding that it takes a village to make a product.

01:08:57

>> Yeah, I think the house analogy that you had before is fitting because you think about, well, you can't just start putting bricks in the ground. You have to >> draft a concept. You've got to measure the land. You have to then create a blueprint and test the blueprint and y >> do all the maths and make sure it's going to be, >> you know, functional. And then you have to instruct the builders on how to build it. So there's there's a lot of layers by the sounds of it. If you want to do

01:09:19

this properly, >> then when it gets to the point that you let's say we have a product, we're satisfied, we've done our testing. >> Y >> what about brand? >> At the beginning when you're like the raw material and the shape uh need to be consistent with whatever the brand codes are, you know, is it a feminine roughly brand? Is it a sort of, you know, um, feminine is not the right word, but like is it a roughly sort of ditzy brand? Is it a utilitarian? Um, is it is it super

01:09:50

um harsh and sharp? All those things come into how you've chosen the materials and what shapes you're going to go with. And then there there are branding tools obviously that might be bold blunt instruments like a big logo on the front. It might be the Mela reference that I talked about with the four stitches on the back of a center back of a sweater. Um, there might be an all over emboss. There might be um, oh, you know, a flag tag on the bottom, an inside tag on something. There's so many

01:10:24

different ways that branding can be incorporated into a product over and above the brand aesthetic brand codes that you've implemented into the aesthetic of what you're building. Are there some specific things that you think are hallmarks of a product or a good product that they have to have to make them stand the test of time in the market against, you know, other brands? Yeah. >> Does it have to be distinctive? Does it have to have an accent? Does it have to have something distinctive to make it

01:10:54

good? >> Um, I think that comes down to personal preferences of, you know, how one shops. like you know the row is a prime example that doesn't have overt branding and it's like you know if you know you know but we also know that high street are ripping off you know those sorts of very um what do you call it um you know quiet luxury sort of looks that you you really don't need to know to know cuz no one cares maybe um or the people that Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, I think it depends on

01:11:25

what aesthetic you're going for, whether you're going for subtlety or whether you're going for um an obvious um visual tool that people can recognize. >> And I think that takes time to implement in product strategies. >> Yes. >> You know, obviously putting a big logo on something does not take time. That is just an obvious thing. But that logo, you know, needs to mean something to people. Um and you know even in our short time in business you know I've learned the bits that people um want to

01:11:53

recognize in our product um and you know want to see from a branding point of view. Um so it's yeah it's a it's a learning process. I think that having um shapes and identification um aspects of product um is valuable if you can build that into your business. But they are like the little touches of magic that happen. Um you know you keep working towards those things in your creations. Um like you know the yellow stitching on docks. >> Yes. >> You know that's that's obviously a key

01:12:30

identifier and if anyone else did it it would be a plagiaristic thing to do. Um but I think those things take time to build over over years. >> Yeah. Now what about photography model selection? >> Yeah. Um because >> yeah, >> if we think about brands now, it's no longer just about being utilitarian. It's no longer about just serving a function. When people are buying items, they're buying into tribalism. They're signaling, I'm in this tribe. I believe

01:13:00

this. I'm this type of person. How important is photography and model selection? >> I think it's really important. Um, and I think it's I think it's easy to get inconsistent in that space. Um, you know, you're on you can be on such a seasonal role even in a slow business like ours. You know, I've I've made this mistake um or gone off pieced. Um, you know, you go through faces and you choose a model for a for a shoot. you know, she's great, but then, you know, years down the track, you sort

01:13:36

of you pan out and you look at years of photography and you see inconsistencies there. And I, you know, and I definitely had plenty of moments like that at Mimco as well, where you haven't necessarily reiterated a look. That said, there are brands that have reiterated a, you know, white woman, blonde hair, you know, homogenized vibe that really doesn't speak to diversity. So, I think there's like getting diverse faces into a brand even that is a statement in itself that you know that you support

01:14:09

diversity. Um, so yeah, I think there's there's a lot about um about who you choose to face a brand. That said, I you know, like AI is also changing everything as well because there's, you know, there's models that are showing up that aren't people. >> What's your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I'm still deciding what my thoughts are on that. I I understand that there are brands that certainly, you know, would not be able to afford full shoots with the model and a stylist

01:14:39

and um all the other and a photographer even um that are creating their campaigns just on the computer screen. And I I understand that, you know, cost is definitely a limitation for me. Um, you know, there's there's a creative community that that I still like to be able to support and endorse and that's models and stylists and hair and makeup and photographers and videographers. Um, so I'm not quite and I I get a lot of joy at a shoot as well. Like I think there's there's good things that come

01:15:10

out of shoots that you can't necessarily achieve if you're just doing it on the screen. >> Yeah. Whenever we've done work with fashion brands and or other brands and used models and aesthetics and sets, >> there's so many happy accidents that you're surprised by that you didn't plan for. >> You sit back and go, "Wow, look at that photo. There's something special about this." >> Yeah. And it's also the energy on set. Like that's that's payment in itself. I

01:15:34

mean, that's a really, you know, for me and it's the Mimco days as well as the Sans Beast days. Like there's there's just a story attached to every time we've done a shoot. And I'm so like glad to have those memories and that's in my sort of you know mental archive of of collaborations that I' that have been built over 20 years. >> I I've seen many cases as well where there has been a great product or a great, you know, brand in the fashion space. However, they've fallen short

01:16:02

with their models and I think it hurts them because I've seen a lot of >> first-time founders >> think to themselves, well, we don't have much budget to go get models and all of that. M >> let's just be the models ourselves. >> Oh yeah. >> And we'll just do a garage shoot. >> How is this inhibiting a brand from having traction and success when it comes to competing in a very noisy market with a lot of other people that are doing this right? >> I think you got to match ambition with

01:16:27

resource. And if you can't afford to do it in a premium way, then you need to make sure you're clever. You need to make sure that you bring creativity to the to the front because I think there are creative inexpensive ways to do shoots. But I think if you try to be here and you do it in an amateur nap way, it it just is obvious. Like I think even people that can't articulate what's wrong with a particular shoot, I think they can identify whether it's um whether it's got aesthetic appeal or

01:17:01

not. It just it's we all understand aesthetics subliminally. I think >> like taste. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Having the right taste. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think you can do things on the cheap, but I think >> you need to make sure that you've got some creative now around you to be able to to deliver that. Well, >> and we've done this before. So, for anyone listening who cares to try and do this, we've had clients that say, "Don't have much of a budget." We then just ask

01:17:29

them, "Do you have anyone in your network anywhere who's either a makeup artist, a photographer, y a stylist, >> or a model?" >> Yep. >> And then usually they say, "Yeah, a couple people." >> Well, let's get on a Zoom call. Let's pitch them the idea and say, "I don't have a budget, but would you like to have all the rights of the shoot?" Yeah. >> So, a makeup artist wants makeup photos. A stylist wants stylist photos. model

01:17:56

wants to shoot >> for sure. >> So, you know, is there harm in trying to resourcefully put a group together to attempt to do something other than just slapping the product on yourself and taking a photo? >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I've also wanted to make sure that we pay people what they want to be paid and what they, you know, what their value is. You know, we pay people and we pay them on time and that's photographers and hair style, sorry, stylists and hair and makeup

01:18:21

people. And you know, I think I'm sure we could do it cheaper. I speak to friends that have got small businesses and they tell me what they pay for shoots and I think, Jesus, I need to I need to sharpen my pencil and get a little bit more frugal with these things. But, um, from my point of view, we've always done content that looks premium and I think that's because we have worked with professionals as well. >> Yeah, your photography is gorgeous. Anyone listening to this, I would

01:18:52

encourage to look at your website. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Look at what you've been able to do with content. >> That's what's impressed me so much is that your brand has had a very good measure of taste as to model curation, photo, even down to the colors and >> how you've done the final touches on the on the models to make it look like >> there's a temper or there's a mood to what you're >> creating. I mean, I like to I like to think so, too. when I was being critical

01:19:17

of myself before, I just mean I look at things with a, you know, through a pretty critical lens and I'm like, "Yeah, that that particular campaign probably was a little bit off-brand." You know, maybe I wasn't in a great place mentally at that time. But I think um generally speaking, I've made sure that um in our hierarchy of content, because I don't think every piece of content has to be super prodduced, okay? >> But I think for website photography, it needs to be at a certain level, right?

01:19:44

And I think that needs to look international and um polished. And to do that, I think you got to pay professionals. Now, we're not like, you know, you know, paying crazy money, but certainly, as I said before, when I've compared it to what some people that I know have paid for, I think I'm glad that we've been able to support, you know, the the different people that we have paid to work with us because they've delivered a product that is um a piece of content that is um comparable to, you know, other premium

01:20:15

brands. I watched the Ralph Lauren >> Yep. >> documentary recently and there was a segment in there where they were talking about how Ralph had this androgynous no makeup aesthetic. Yep. >> To the models. >> And even at a certain point, he was like one of the first brands to have an African-American male as the >> showpiece of a of a campaign as well. >> When you think about your brand and what you've been able to create, what are you looking for in a model? Yeah, that's a

01:20:45

really good question because I think um I increasingly like we still we still do book models, but increasingly I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with just going through model sites and just choosing people based on how they look. >> Yes. >> Um you know, I'm more attracted to the notion of finding people that have got a story to tell. Now, we're not quite there yet. We definitely are with our content collaborators that are doing interesting things in the world. and I I

01:21:14

want to photograph them more. Um, but I'm generally look historically I've looked for an interesting face. Um, I haven't looked for um sort of nothing wrong with the standard Anglo-Saxon thing, but I've definitely looked for diversity. I've wanted different um different backgrounds, different face shapes, different hair colors, different skin colors. Um, you know, we've definitely had some feedback along the way. you know, you should have different size bodies in your shoots. Um, you

01:21:45

know, I'm a I'm a larger person and that strap doesn't suit doesn't fit me now that I've had the bag delivered. Um, you know, I want to see someone my size in your shoots. And I get that, but we're also a small business and there's a lack of understanding that you can't hire 10 models for a shoot. >> Yes. you know, I can't you sort of tend to go with I don't know um I wouldn't call it a standard shape, but you go with a shape that maybe is a sample size

01:22:09

so the stylists can go and borrow clothes to fit that person, right? >> Particularly being an accessories brand, we've got to dress the model, >> which is, you know, tricky in itself because we're just handbags. >> Um yeah, there's a whole lot of considerations definitely, but diversity and a little bit of quirk, I guess, as to how they look is generally what I see. There's an example I was reading into recently around Gym Shark. >> So, Gym Shark when they originally came

01:22:36

out, they had an aesthetic. You had to be a hardcore gym rat, buff, fit, attractive to be considered as someone who would be eligible for their influencer campaign. Mhm. >> Uh then as the company scaled and became this billion dollar you know tyrant in the gym fashion space they injected a inclusivity campaign and they did different body shapes and so such and the brand started to tank >> because the original concept was this brand is for the hardcore gym fanatic. >> Y >> full stop.

01:23:10

>> Yeah. >> Then they compromised on their identity and then >> because they wanted a wider audience. >> They wanted a wider audience. Now they've reverberated back so aggressively that they took Chris Bumstead who's seventh time Mr. Olympian bodybuilding champion right gave him equity in the company and then snapped right back to their original identity right >> and continue to scale. My question is >> should brands be allowed to maintain their aesthetic through an identity

01:23:40

versus trying to appease everyone? >> Yeah, I I I think so. Yeah. Country Road probably 15, 20 years ago, probably even shorter time frame than that, um were criticized heavily um for perpetually shooting a particular looking guy and girl. Um they look like, you know, they wandered the streets of Sarrento. They were generally blondhaired, private school educated, um white skin, and um you know, there was there was criticism, you know, on social media, etc. Um and then when like and country road is owned

01:24:17

by a South African business so in South Africa that is definitely wasn't popular. So they had to bring more diversity into their model selection as a result of that. So I think there's got to be a middle ground. Like I think brands definitely need to stay true to themselves. Um I mean I would like to think that a brand staying true to itself does not necessarily have to do with how someone just looks. I think it should hopefully be about what's on the inside and their belief systems and

01:24:43

their their approach to life. Um, but I think yeah, in short, yes, we should all be true to ourselves as to what we're trying to put out into the world. Fashion in particular has been guilty of um, you know, promoting a really undersized woman in particular. And I guess, you know, that can be disenfranchising for people to look at that. Um, >> by the same token, it's impossible to to to look at a brand and have that brand represent every single iteration of all of us on the planet. I

01:25:17

mean, I'm not looking at a brand and going, why is there not a 5' 3 and 1/2 woman walking down the catwalk? I still can look at brands, even though they're sixoot women and go, I I like that dress. Yeah. >> You know, I don't need to see myself there to relate to it. >> It's like you said before, people, you know, give the market some credit. People aren't I I don't think people are so dared that they have to see them them exactly portrayed in the brand to be

01:25:39

able to buy it. Now, let's talk about brand story because >> I'm I'm a big story guy. I think if you look at humanity, we love stories. We love movies, >> music, pop culture. >> Yep. It's so ingrained in in especially in product or in something you would wear or take with you as an item that it would mean something. How important is having a good story for a productbased brand? >> Look, I think it's important. Um I don't know whether it's important to everyone

01:26:14

but for me why the brand started you know it's so it's so linked to the product because choosing not to use animal leather is like the fundamental of why we started in the first place. So you know um firstly the story is to how I came about to how I came to start that is important because it adds um um integrity I guess and um authority to what I'm doing given that I've worked for a long time and I've done accessories for a long time and I I know leather and have chosen to go in a

01:26:54

different direction. So I think the story is relevant there because it shows that there's there's uh a strong foundation. It's not just jumping on a trend. Um and I think sourcing the materials and caring about where we source the materials from and knowing how the materials are made is part of the story as well because again I think that adds integrity and layers to yeah it's all about layering. It's all about how a brand story is built based on the provenence, based on the materials,

01:27:26

based on how we design, how often we deliver, where we sit from a pricing point of view, you know, like I didn't I didn't set out for this brand to be it's not it's not a luxury brand. Like it's I've never wanted it to be a two $3,000 handbag brand, you know, because I don't I don't come from that world. I've never related to that world. Um, so I want it to be accessible. I want it to be egalitarian and that's part of the story as well. You know, there's there's so

01:27:54

many things that go into what makes a brand. And I I don't think every customer wants to know the story, you know. I don't think everyone I've had a couple of I've had a lot of love, which is beautiful. And then I've also had a couple of I just want to I'm just here for the bags. Stop stop indulging yourself and telling me your story. And I'm like, just don't bloody listen then. Seriously. and have a great day. >> Most fashion houses deliberately hide their supply chains to protect their

01:28:23

mystique >> or their IP. >> Or their IP. >> Yeah. >> You do the opposite. You document and show everything. >> Yeah. >> Why has this been so powerful or effective for your brand story? >> Because I think if you I I don't think you can talk about transparency unless you walk that path. So I think you know if there's nothing to hide then there's nothing to hide like you know when people say so it's just plastic which you know we don't get very often but we

01:28:50

do get from some people like well yeah it is a synthetic um and this is how it's made and you know it's a recycled synthetic and it's it's a certified recycled synthetic that we make sure that we have proper certification to endorse that. I think, you know, it's part of my approach to just using straight language and speaking honestly to people about the materials, the manufacturing, etc. Um, I think anyone that's putting smoke and mirrors around things, it's a dangerous space to be in.

01:29:16

I mean, Europe's bringing in a digital um passport soon to products. Um, and Australia probably >> What do you mean? Um it needs to that's the DDP digital digital data passport or digital I can't remember what it stands for but it's going to um you know where the materials have come from uh there I think environmental impact it's all to do with circularity um you know there's there's it's going to be an interesting time because there's a lot of talk in the press about

01:29:46

things you know biodegradability um but we're a long way off that as a fashion industry. that everything's just going to, you know, biodegrade in a hurry because we also want things to last a lifetime. We also want to wear things in the rain. We also want things to be wiped downable and cleanable. So that means coatings and generally that means synthetics. Yeah. >> So I think um yeah, the passport is something I think it's like 2027 maybe happening in Europe. Um it's a good one

01:30:13

to read about because it's like oh my god, how are all these businesses going to you know deal with that? So yeah, >> getting back to your question, I think it's >> I think if you're honest with people, they can criticize, but at least they can't criticize that you're trying to BS them, >> you know, and I don't want to just greenwash. I I want to just have honest conversations with people. >> Yeah. There's there's this notion I saw a meme yesterday and it was someone in a

01:30:40

car drinking out of a straw as they're seeing jets fly overhead and the war playing out and it said that >> I'm just here drinking out of my soggy straw while I'm watching World War II play out. >> Yeah, >> there there is a bit of bitterness I think when when it does feel like there is overregulation in some cases and it it's not quite balanced yet where it's kind of ridiculous. I'm drinking out of a paper straw, but the cup's plastic. >> And social media does have something to

01:31:05

do with this, but we do get sort of um redirected into spaces that we can be vocal about. So, we don't look over here. >> Yeah. When you look at social media and just how noisy it is become when it comes to branding and marketing, what do you think is going to happen in your industry when it comes to product, manufacturing, e-commerce, supply? >> Yeah. as all of this is starting to change, >> you know, if we go on as normal and the earth continues to be able to cope with the resources that we're extricating

01:31:34

from it and people keep starting new businesses and making materials from virgin virgin materials um and putting more product out into the market and if the if the world copes with that or the earth copes with that which I doubt that it will then on a fairly simplistic level in answer to your question brands and and the social media crowded space that it is and AI coming in. Brands that I guess will hopefully flourish are the ones that are going to be doing, you know, authentic >> purpose-led. Yeah.

01:32:09

>> Real content, right? >> We're seeing a lot more real world activations, that type of thing. >> There's a lot of and and community building as well, like on the ground, local community building. That's assuming that everything goes along well with the environment and the geopolitical situation, which we won't get into. But, you know, there's there's obviously big risks that the world faces if we keep extracting what we are extracting. Um, and you know, and I'm a

01:32:36

part of that. Like, we're still making new bags. Even if we are using recycled materials and we're using materials that have got a lower environmental impact than animal leather, um, it's still an extraction. So I guess you know in the future I think like repair, recycle, upcycle and secondhand are all on the rise. Apparently growing way faster than the first like new product businesses are growing. So I think you know the next few years are going to be interesting in the retail space

01:33:08

regardless. There's definitely some businesses and brands that are probably not going to survive. Um, you know, I I'm hoping that there's going to be mass investment in recycling, but the only way that that's going to happen is if there's money to be made in it. >> Building this type of deep conviction around product design, as you've stated, has taken you decades to understand. I would imagine it's painful, expensive. uh how can someone today take or heed advice from your experience over 35

01:33:43

years in this space and apply it to how they might build their own brands? >> I mean I think learn your craft whatever it is you're going to focus on. I think learning your craft is going to be um a superpower for people. I think there's a view that you know the barriers to entry in business are so low now that anyone can do it and maybe anyone can do it but to have truly a depth of knowledge about what you're doing I think is a point of difference whatever it is jewelry shoes apparel bags anything um and I

01:34:13

think you know making sure you've got cash to back you up uh making sure your supply chain is um trusted and um reliable and And I think figuring out wherever your supply chain is, I think figuring out how to minimize your risk by buying the least amount of stock that you have to do your sales so and you can get to get back into your stock like understanding a critical path. Um, you know, and I know there's a view that a lot of these foundational things are a bit old school and um, you know, we

01:34:48

don't need to worry about that. We put all the all the risk on the supplier and they can buy the materials, they can hold them and ra. I mean, I I just think I think some old-fashioned business values go a long way in starting a business. Um, and I think, you know, understanding why you're starting your business. I mean, what is the to use bit of a dated term, but what is the pain point that you're actually addressing in the marketplace? I think being able to answer that question is pretty key.

01:35:20

Um because I don't think the world just needs more stuff for the sake of it. I think um you know I hear what some people say about our bags that really love the bags and take care of them and you know it's they're so proud of buying from a business that has got charity alignments and has taken a step against a legacy industry which is a very wealthy big you know multi-corporation entity the leather industry and you know it's a $300 handbag. It's not like it's a mortgage payment, but it's it's

01:35:56

something that's very precious to them. And I'm proud of that. And I think, you know, if if someone's starting a business and building some I guess build something that you're proud of, I think is a really um but you know, that's that's like a life lesson, isn't it really? >> I would agree. >> You know, I think it's important. >> I think so. My intention behind this show is is to understand how people have come to take agency in their life. What does taking agency mean to you?

01:36:24

having agency over um I mean I have a lot of agency um you know and I I've had it in when I've been an employee for sure but having agency over what I speak about what I write about um who I partner with from a material supplier point of view um what we in what we spend our money on in the business um having agency to express my opinions with with no um and my education with because a lot of it is just fact not opinion with no repercussions other than maybe sales which you know so far so

01:37:07

good um is everything to me I mean freedom is a fundamental driver for me in life freedom to um build something from nothing travel when I want to travel you know within you know the financial restrictions Um, and be a free spirit. Like fly when I want to fly, not just unconscious, you know, like actually metaphorically fly is what I mean. Um, and that all comes down to having agency to do that. And, you know, we live in a really bloody privileged country, I have to say. >> Yeah. >> And I feel gratitude every single day

01:37:44

for that. >> Katherine, this has been a pleasure. >> Same. Thank you. really enjoyed learning more about how you think, what you're creating, why you're creating it, your story, where you've come from, why you're here. Uh this has been a pleasure. >> Thank you. Likewise. >> I really appreciate it. And um yeah, it's just been a it's been a joy to to have taken the time to research what you've created and it's been fun hanging out with you. >> Thank you. Same.

‍