Stop Making This Costly Mistake in B2B Pitches | Ed Chambers

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I think we're experiencing a tidal [music] wave of data. The most important part of all of this is a commentary and almost a storytelling about what the data is telling you and that should then inform your next step. What do you look for? How do you draw insights? Listen, >> I like seeing why the outliers are there. So, if there's a a mass data point collecting in the middle, why are the outliers the way they are? If you're looking at the performance of high street retail stores, for example,

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you're looking at the time of day, looking at foot traffic, you're looking at the weather, understanding when they're the busiest and when they're at their least busy and why. Can you can we generate an extra couple of hours either side of your trading day? Can you put on a courtesy bus to come to your store and create that extra hour? >> Why do you think it's critical before [music] a deal starts to have had done your research to understand who's sitting across the table from you?

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Having a succinct amount of insight based on a lot of data is actually one of the real powers in the general operating world that we are at the moment. And to be honest with you, there's no excuse now. AI platforms can create that trust between individuals as yet. They can show that you're well researched. I don't believe that they can create trust on your behalf. What's your take on it? Do you feel like we're actually living at an intersection where where we're experiencing change?

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I think we're experiencing >> this episode is brought to you by Wick Studio. >> Ed Chambers, welcome to the Agency podcast. >> Thanks for having me. Great to be here. >> Dude, your background is insane. You've worked in uh some of the biggest brands in the world uh in over three countries. So, the UK, Dubai, and Australia. And I think what was interesting to me is being able to have a conversation today about what is happening in the world of marketing, AI, the forefront of

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branding, leadership, and how to structure yourself for the next wave of business that we're about to walk into in the next few years. When you're looking at the world of marketing from the lens of the position that you're currently in, what do you see is around the corner for the next wave of entrepreneurship and the next wave of marketing? It's about how we embrace both the human ability and the technology component. I think being able to work in unison across the two is going to be the most important thing.

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We've got so much data at our at our disposal. We've got so much ability to unpack that to create insights. But at the end of the day, it's useless without us, without us people um steering that ship, if you will. And I think that's probably where the biggest change is going to come about how we leverage all those different platforms. There's so many. And the one that's really the thing that's really appealing to me at the moment is the amount of new features that are dropping on all this technology

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so frequently so hard to keep up with. When you think about how turbulent things are right now with technology, it can be easy to get overwhelmed when you're looking at it from a marketing lens. Do you have some principles or some beliefs that no matter what's happening in the market, you try to hold dear? >> Yeah, I think just the basics. I think being able to really understand what it is that you're trying to achieve at the end of the day. I think the tools are there. They're at your disposal. But

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it's a really about understanding the objectives from the very beginning. And I think if you you and your whole team really understand what it is that you would like to get out of the process that you're going through, you'll probably be able to stay that course a lot better. >> Talk me through what was that like in 2004 working abroad, working in marketing. Like what did that consist of? >> I was working in B2B. So I was really understanding the the types of businesses that were um that were in

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Dubai that were operating in Dubai. Were they locally owned? Were they international businesses? Really leveraging the internet as it was then to to to research and to dig deep, but really taking the time to understand your audience. I think that was the crucial bit. Not none of that was just given to you like it is now. Um and if you didn't take the time to do that, you wouldn't then know what channels to activate to speak to those audiences. Um and it was it was a fun time, but it was

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um campaigns took longer to get to market. um they were they were more difficult to get out because you had one shot. You couldn't just optimize to your point around not being as digitally activated then. We didn't have the same channels. It was very much um you know those direct mail days where you get something in the post. That's what it was all about. So I look back now not being able to take a campaign, begin it on its journey and then change it when you realize that perhaps there was an

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opportunity to make it a little bit more effective and speak to your audience a little bit more closely. That was the that was the that's the biggest difference that was back in the day. >> What's actually changed in the last decade or two decades >> with the digital climb that we've seen? It's privacy. I think being able to really understand that people have a right to privacy even however digitally active they are. You can't just steamroll into their email inbox or or

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or pepper them on their phone because that's not what they've asked for. They've asked to be served um solutions or or insights that are of interest to them and you can't just barrel through the door. Um and then just all the channels at your disposal. I think there's probably too many to be honest with you. You can actually get to people and you get to audiences very very easily nowadays. And and I think it's about understanding what are the channels that are most suited to that

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particular audience. And I know with with the data that we have and the insights that we have at our disposal now, you can really you can really go deep on on people's behaviors and cohorts of people's behaviors. Um but I think it always comes back to that privacy and really respecting what it is that people are are asking for and perhaps what they would like to hear about rather than just pushing a message onto them. Thinking back to uh your early days in in marketing, what were the key things that you learned at the

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beginning? Like you said, you had no idea what you were doing at the start. You were just winging it. I definitely did the same thing when I started the agency. Uh what were those key lessons that you learned in those early days? >> Trying to get something out the door for the sake of getting it out the door is probably usually where you'd fall down. What I loved most about working in the the formative years of my career was was spending the time just researching. Uh you probably only get sort of two or

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three campaigns a year. So you you want to enjoy them, but at the same time make sure that they work because as is sometimes the case, you really have to prove a marketing worth. There there are many naysayers out there and I and I'm I'm totally okay with that. But I think proving that a that that a campaign works and really understanding the metrics that are driving commercial growth rather than just reach or engagement, I think that's where the exciting bit comes. And I think back in

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the formative years of my career, it was sometimes harder to do that, but very very rewarding when you managed to do it. >> One of my mentors, Mark Ritzen, he had this funny quote that he said, "The first rule of marketing is you're an idiot." And what he what he meant by this is that a lot of people like to think that they'd worked in an industry, they have background, they have experience, therefore they know a little bit about it. He liked to think about marketing as when you sit down with a

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client or you sit down with the business that you're representing and you're thinking about the strategy, assume you know nothing and have a curious mind to go out there and do the research like you were saying. When you think about doing research and going out there and trying to figure out who the target market is, what are the things that they should be considerate of? What are the key items that they must have on their list to research? what are the answers or the categories of answers that we're

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trying to build? >> Yeah, I spent most of my career in in the B2B space. So, so marketing to businesses and I think there it's really creating cohorts and personas. Um, so not at an individual level, but more at an account level. Um, you perhaps start with industries, you can start with um with with demographics. And by that from a business perspective, I mean where they're based. um what are their sort of what are their what are their key solutions, what are their key innovations that they're bringing to the

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market and really understanding who these businesses are, where they're based and and and why they're operating. Um I think once you understand why someone exists or a business exists and what it is that they are trying to achieve and understanding what their sort of risk parameters are, you're probably going to create a really good understanding of who that cohort is and and perhaps then speak to them. as I said in in a language that that that would sort of mean more to them. >> Have you got an example of a project you

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worked on either recently or in the early days where uh it was kind of confusing what the target market demographic was and how the team solved it? Yeah, I spent a few years working at a telecommunications company here in Australia and we essentially were providing um telco services to all businesses of of any size and I was working more in the small business space. Um and at the end of the day, small businesses just want to be connected. They just need to be connected so that they can connect with

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their customers so that they can connect with each other and they can be on the road selling whatever the wares are that they have. And we we spent a lot of time trying to understand the fact that there are like two million businesses in Australia. And I'm sure that's a small market compared to other markets in the world, but still a lot of businesses and that's a lot of people working for those businesses. And really understanding trying to sort of slice and dice that that group into understanding what

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connectivity does for them and what what it is that the reason that they might buy from you. And I think that was probably the most important thing for us. So, and we noticed a couple of times while I was working in that particular company where the connectivity failed and it was awful. It was awful to hear and and see stories of businesses that were not able to operate. They were not able to um there were cafes that couldn't take uh payment for for for coffees or whatever it might be. And that was that was truly truly harrowing.

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I think we learned a lot about businesses at the time of adversity as well. So the stories we heard that came out of that particular episode were um were challenging to hear, but it also made us want to be more resilient. It made us want to be better at what we do for our customers. And from a marketing perspective, it made us want to be we wanted to build that trust back up. And and and I think that was the sort of biggest mountain that we had to climb was was building that brand trust back up and working out how to do that. That

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was the that was the key. How did you guys uh solve the problem? >> Well, I think at the end of the day, the connectivity had to work. So, that was one thing. And then I think it was just buying into the brand again, buying into the fact that um we had an element of empathy for what had happened and we were honest and transparent about the fact of what had happened and and then it was sort of apologizing and then really getting that trust back and that was through um consistent showing of

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value. Um, once you can show value to a to a customer base and to a group of people and a group of businesses that that is good for them, not just value that you put on it. I'm not talking price. I'm talking value of a brand. This is what we can do for you and this is why we exist for you. Um, it starts to build up over time, but we do know that brands take a lot a lot longer to build than they do to bring down. That's for sure. When we think about how people are rapidly trying to implement AI kind

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of everywhere in their business, um why does it feel that businesses are struggling more than ever? >> I think having an understanding of of using AI tools to really understand why you're doing something is great, but I think then it's around just getting into negotiations and and conversations. I think too much time can be spent trying to consume as much information as possible. you think back only 10 years, you probably didn't need as much as we as we do now. But I think because we

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feel it's at our fingertips, we should be using it, but it's always going to be there. For me, there's nothing better than walking into a room and starting a a negotiation or a deal face to face, looking someone in the eyes, shaking their hand, and saying, "Right, let's do this. Let's converse." Knowing I've got enough information in my pocket about who they are, what their company is, what their objectives are. I know what mine are, but understanding theirs as

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well. and then just getting into the conversation. >> If you want to grow your agency, you need more than just a website builder. You need Rick Studio, the all-in-one platform that's built to help you scale. Design smarter in a hyperflexible, responsive editor, cherrypicking whatever clients need from pre-built UI elements and templates. Deliver robust backends with built-in e-commerce solutions for every industry, letting self-maintaining infrastructure just run itself. Stop reinventing the wheel with

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what's the more important thing in that room? Is it about just sheer data and understanding exactly what's in front of them? When you think about negotiations and how they play out in big deals, um, if AI can just get every bit of information across the field in an email or what have you, why do people still want to get face to face? Why do they still want to meet for coffee? What what is that? It's trust. I think there's nothing better than than creating a a a trust with with another individual or

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group of individuals. But I think you don't get anywhere until you get that face to face because that is where you start to build the trust. I think there's nothing more powerful than knowing that during a negotiation that you've got that element of trust and there's a few ways you can do that. For me, one of them is showing vulnerability. So, from my side, um it could be through storytelling, showing telling examples where something probably hasn't quite worked rather than trying to suggest that everything I do

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is always right. I love to show that vulnerability because I think that's where some trust starts to build. Well, that that would go against some people's instincts, but I would imagine being vulnerable and telling people where you've not done well. >> I think so. And and and that's that's totally fine. I think in in my sort of younger career, I probably wanted to hide that and suppress that a lot. Whereas nowadays, a bit older in the tooth, I can be vulnerable. It's totally

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fine. I can be more transparent and and and and suggesting of when something hasn't quite worked. So, it's how you then convey it to create that sort of human connection. That's that's probably the most exciting part. And I think we're a long way from that going away. I think we're a long way from replacing the trust that we create between two individuals or two groups of individuals. And just the constant uh conversations and interactions between individuals and groups is is really

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where you start to make giant strides because the trust comes in many levels. It comes in individuals, but you also are a custodian of of the brand, your brand and my brand being together. It doesn't take much in a deal to almost fall apart if one of you lets the other one down. Now, I think you're less likely to have that scenario when you have that trust. And I don't believe that AI platforms can create that trust between individuals as yet. They can show that you are wellversed and you're

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well researched. I don't believe that they can create trust on your behalf. And long may that continue. That's my favorite bit. Do you think that in the negotiation process uh the vulnerability piece is what's going to build trust? >> I think it's probably the one of the greatest elements. I think uh again through storytelling but through explaining um experiences in the past or what you might have noticed is is kind of encapsulated mostly by vulnerability. um you can be confident and I think you

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can be transparent, but I think showing vulnerability creates an element of um interaction that's quite hard to replace. And and again, there's there's very I don't think there's an AI platform that can do that on my behalf, but just show, hey, look, I'm I'm open to discussing this. This is what I've done in the past. Um this is what didn't work. This is what has worked. Um let's find some common ground now. And I think when you notice that in an eye that that

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someone is starting to build trust with you, um I think you you're kicking down a door to creating a pretty good partnership and a good deal. >> Yeah. I imagine when you tell someone your weaknesses or things you've failed within the past, it exposes that you're happy to kind of wear your heart on your sleeve and just not try to play this or posture this position of perfection. >> I think that enjoying it is probably the most important thing. But but if you show v show show vulnerability in your

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personal life, why can't you show it in your working life as well? But I think it's sort of making sure that's enough just to just to show that you're being honest. Um I think that honesty and transparency um is probably where people will create the greatest connections. I think there's no doubt about that. Um but as I said, I've got no issue showing showing vulnerability nowadays. What other tips would you have for people on how to handle this relationship to create more trust to build that

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relationship and to have the other individual want to do business with you? >> Yeah, I think empathy is a good one. So, you know what your posture is and you know what your stance is on behalf of your business, but really um asking questions and really getting out and teasing out from the likes of yourself what what your objectives are because if there's no common ground there, this thing's going to fall down in a heartbeat. So, really asking questions is is the most important thing for me.

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and then listening back. So, it's an old adage that you should listen more than more than you talk. And and I totally get that. And I think asking questions to understand better why someone is at the table is probably one of those sort of key, you know, key points that that create a greater greater long-term respect. Um, and I think respect is probably the other other good word there because if you show respect and you and you demonstrate respect, that's where people are going to buy into you as an

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individual and therefore you as a as a business. I think the key here is people are going to call you up when they perhaps made a mistake or they've represented your brand slightly wrong and they didn't get permission to use a logo or whatever it might be. Once you've created that trust and you've got that mutual connection, I think they're more likely to connect with you and let you know and and admit a mistake or or whatever it might be. Um rather than you finding out the hard way.

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>> If you think about negotiations, sales, building relationships with other people in business makes sense for vulnerability, empathy, being honest, um being your authentic self. What are some of the other things you could begin to do in the negotiation stage to give yourself altitude or to make yourself look like the best option versus a competitor? What else could you do in that situation? >> I think bringing your team in and showing that you've got you've got good people around you, I think, is the other

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good one. So, there's no way you're going to go and negotiate a big deal on your own. You've got a good team around you. And I think giving people, your teammates, the sort of leg up to have that sort of um exposure to the conversation is also super important because you're certainly not a one-man band. Um when you work in large corporations like I have, it's you know, you're only as strong as the team around you. And if you've created a really strong connection with your team and

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you've you've got trust in them and you show that you're willing to give them the limelight as much as possible, I think people are going to buy into to you as a a person and as a leader and I think that's probably the most exciting bit as well. So, um trying to do everything on your own is is never going to get too far. But showing you're part of a team and you're you you are part of that team. You may lead the team on paper, but you're part of a team, I think is is is an area of of of great

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strength. >> What's something most people believe about a business relationship that's completely wrong? >> So, I think it's around understanding what the value is. So, I might value something slightly different to you, but talking it through. So, there might not be a given price tag on that, but you've represented something at a certain value, and I might have a different value to it. And if we can't agree, let's probably take that off the table and we'll talk about the things that we

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can agree on. Um, so I think it's around creating creating mutual understanding of value and perceived value. There's um a program I did years ago by John Belfett from the Wolf of Wall Street and he talked about in a sales negotiation if you end up clashing horns with the prospect across the table from you to loop back to a point in negotiation where you agreed. So he said basically rewind the tape to when you agreed and try to go back to agreement and then work your way from there. What is it

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about being in agreement versus disagreement that will either drive or stagnate a deal? >> Well, I think being comfortable in disagreement is not a bad thing as well. So I think if you understand what it is that you've disagreed on and you've understood how both parties have got to that disagreement, that's not a bad thing to learn from as well. It's a great example of going back to where you have agreed, getting that positive energy back again. But understanding what you've disagreed on and why you've

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got to that point is probably going to hold you in goodstead for any future um conversations you have. So if you're going deep on some clauses or some points um you probably see some red flags based on some previous conversations you've had. But being comfortable understanding that is not a bad thing. It doesn't break down all communications and and all negotiations, but it does tell you where perhaps one entity's understanding of of of an activity or a point is and and representing that. Well,

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>> you've sat on both sides of deals. You've both pitched massive deals and been on the receiving end of it as well. Um, what's the thing entrepreneurs do that immediately kills a deal? thinking that you are always going to be right and that what you've got is what they need is probably where you're going to fall down a little bit. Um, if you're working for a big I've worked for a big corporation, I've worked for startups. If you go into a negotiation as a big

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corporation and assume that they need you, you're not going to get that human connection we've already referenced. I've worked for the small businesses as well and and and and negotiating with bigger businesses and and it's about creating a value that we have and a respect that we have for our brand and our smaller business um and how we're trying to get a leg up. I think it's okay for the bigger for the bigger guys to help the smaller guys out. I think it's around um accepting that you can

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give a little. You don't have to win every single conversation. I think when you give someone a little bit, they feel a lot better about where they are and where the conversation's going. And I think you're more likely to end up in a much better position. >> When you think about doing a business deal from one business to the next, what are the things that you like to have in place? Do you have certain procedures or methods or approaches that you like to have to make sure that things don't go

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sideways? >> I think just sort of breaking down those barriers of corporate talk is a really good a good place to start. um that's not very natural to speak in in in consistent corporate corporate jargon so to speak. So why not create that sort of personal connection with someone understanding who they are where they've come from what their history are. Maybe you've maybe you both lived in a city together. There's been many times where I've chatted to um people and we both lived in Dubai around the

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same time. We're probably drinking in the same bar for all we know. But that's that's a nice little connection point and I think that starts to create a lot of velocity when it comes to agreeing um partnerships and deals when you've got that sort of personal connection that's been created. And again, when we go back to trust and we go to personal connections, there's nothing greater than knowing you've got that little personal connection. Um and then we can let the corporate stuff take care of

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itself. >> Why do you think it's critical before a deal starts when you sit down to have had done your research to understand who's sitting across the table from you? I think it's respect to show that you have spent the time to understand who they are and what their business represents. You should be well verssed. You should be well researched. And to be honest with you, there's no excuse. Now, you can be in a taxi on the on the way there and you can get your phone out and

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you can say, "I'm going to go and meet these people. This is who they are. This is who I am. Give me 10 questions to go and speak to speak to." And I think that that's okay knowing that someone's probably used AI to research. At least they spent the time. >> How did you do this before AI? I think when LinkedIn came about, it was a it was a cracking platform because you could see people who worked there, had worked there, or knew these people, and you could perhaps, you know, drop a drop

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a message saying, "I'm going to go and meet this person. Give me a little insight who they are." I think just finding ways um it it was very difficult back in back in those days um in my early career. Absolutely. And I think you relied more on instinct when it came to meeting someone. um it was less around, you know, perhaps didn't have the tools to research on who they were and where they'd come from. >> Now, let's flip it. If you were to meet with someone and have not done your

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research, has that ever backfired on you? >> Yeah, it's it certainly has. Um I've been at a point where um I thought this was a great deal was back in the telco I worked for. I thought it was a great deal for for for everyone involved. Um and I assumed they were keen and um it went south pretty quickly. um the conversation didn't really get started. There was no human connection, no personal connection there. Um and it was very clear that I hadn't done my research and I was very honest about it

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afterwards. I said, you know, I didn't come as my best self. Um and and and again, there's no excuse. There was no excuse for that. But it was a shame because um I felt these were two entities that would work very well together. We had common audiences that we were trying to um speak to and and and do business with. And I regret that to this day. I wish I'd done a little bit more research and I'd created a bit more respect, which I didn't do. >> Yeah. I I remember um I did a pitch to a

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massive clothing brand here in Australia, like a massive brand. They they were in every city in every and they had locations all ac all across the country. I think they had like 39 locations. And I remember going into the boardroom and I didn't do my homework on the founder of the business. I did my homework on the brand. And I remember I was at a boardroom table and there was 20 executives around this table and um the founder was quite a uh how would you say like quite a direct blunt get to the

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effing point person and I was like whoa I wasn't ready for this and I remember having mystery shopped nine of the locations and I did a full analysis of full report on the brands music tags change rooms like everything the brand was doing great and everything they were doing poorly and right as I stood stood up to introduce myself. The founder just goes, "How much does it cost?" And I I I said the price cuz in sales I was trained to just tell him the price right away and then go back to the objection.

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And he scoffed at the price and he said, "Who do you think you are? And why do you think you can help us?" And I reached into my backpack and I pulled out a stack of reports. It was about that thick. And I put it on the table and I said, "I mystery shopped all your locations and I've got a full report on how we can help the brands." every executive leaned forward except he leaned back. I just made him look bad in front of his team. Right. So then I didn't do my homework and I completely

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absolutely just tarnished the entire pitch. And I remember going down like a 60 floor elevator on the way out just being like damn it like I just I should have done my research on the the person who was in front of me. What happened in that deal? What what did you miss that sent the deal south? I was very it was very similar in that I had a very passionate owner of a small business um who who had a value for their business and and and was very proud of what they'd built and I perhaps came with I

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hadn't done the research that you just explained there at all and I and I and I just assumed it would go ahead but I think not knowing the individual as well and not giving the respect that they deserved was probably where it all fell down. Does it change the paradigm of the relationship or how the conversation starts? >> I think so. I think you if you don't have a an understanding of who someone is and and and create that sort of warmth um and engagement from the start, I think you you're never really going to

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get going. It's always going to start cold. And I think that's that's the hardest bit. >> It's almost like it's like pushing the business out of the room for a second and saying, "Hey, I just want to get to know you. I've heard a little bit about you. I know X, Y, and Z. I saw your LinkedIn post. What have you just kind of I don't know. So I find it takes the tension out of the room when you do that. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's not a bad thing to to look at other people in

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the room as well. You've obviously got your focal point which would be your sort of decision maker or your owner, but you know, have you called other people in that work in that office and ask what their opinion is. The only way to do that is again pick up the phone and speak to them. And I think going back to where we are going with these technology advancements now, um it's probably even warmer to speak to someone on the phone now knowing that it's not not AI. And and I think when you're

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trying to create common ground as fast as possible and you're trying to create a warmth about you before you walk in, you want to create an environment where people like you before you even walk in. Ideally, they don't have to love you. They can like you though. They can like the way you're going about your business. They can like the way you are approaching matters and you're taking the time to understand who an individual is or a business is. Um, I think picking up the phone and and speaking to people

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in the office if you can in the other office is is a pretty good one. I think you would have found out a lot more about that. If you're thinking about the prep, the research before you go into a deal, before you go into a negotiation, that can certainly set you up to know what you're dealing with. What's something that you learned about someone before meeting with them that completely changed how you approached the deal or the individual? I think that assuming someone's got this

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sort of tough exterior and they're actually quite soft inside is always good to know as well. I think there can be very different characteristics or personalities that come through. You've got your your person sitting around a boardroom table and you've got your person at home. Um I'm recently a father. I've got two children under three and I've become very soft since having my children. If I look back to where I was sort of 1015 years ago, I had this sort of hard edge um which I

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like that it's eroded now. But that would have been dealing with me in two very different ways. The one that deals with me now and the ones that that dealt with me back then are very very different um characteristics for me. If someone contacted me and they knew I had a couple of children and perhaps, you know, I've got two girls and you're going to be a girl, dad, you're a little bit softer. Knowing that about me would would probably make me feel more comfortable that they they understand

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that about me. Um, but in the past, I think you're too busy trying to prove yourself or I was too busy trying to prove myself. Um, and had this sort of hard edge. Um, and and having that eroded away has been great. >> What What happened? What do you mean? What what changed? >> Well, I just I think I think empathy is probably the key word there. Really understanding that um, everyone's got families or a lot of people have families now that that they are sort of they feel they're representing as well.

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I feel I represent my family and everything I do and and I want them to be proud of what I do. And I think that's the sort of soft exter soft interior that that really matters. Um I can be um strong at work. I can be great at my job. But I think knowing that I'm always got this sort of soft soft interior about me is great. So if people know that about me um and and respect that and understand that, I actually quite like it. I've unlocked something in my mind about this empathy piece

00:31:13

because I think a lot of people think that by nature, by default, they're already empathetic. But exercising empathy is a totally different thing, I think. And I'm thinking to a recent phone call I had. I I called one of my friends overseas and I had this very weird, very specific problem in the business I was trying to solve and I was super stressed out about it. And we got on a Zoom call and I'm like going on this wild rant about this problem and how I'm going to solve it. And I

00:31:39

remember the person across from me on the camera just leaned in and just smiled and said, "Hey man, like I think you're being a little hard on yourself and if I were in your shoes, I'd feel exactly how you feel right now. And here's three reasons why I'd feel the way you feel right now." And it was just a moment where it took the tension out of me and it's like I sobered up and I could think clearly. When you're in a deal and you're in a negotiation between

00:32:03

one business and the next, I think a lot of things can get in the way of the human interaction. When you think about empathy, how can people better empathize with the person in front of them? What are some tricks, some things that they should think about, some questions they should ask to actually exercise empathy? I think just going back to basics is is is probably the best one. So, why are you even in that room from the start? So, regardless of conversations that have happened or you've been derailed in

00:32:29

some way, just go back to why we're even here. and and and you know, we're here because we're trying to do the best job for our business or we're trying to do the best job for ourselves and and that's totally fine. So, really going back to that um the basics I think is important, but also then what what are those objectives? Why why are we what is it that we're actually trying to achieve here? Um so, we know we've got this common ground. We know we want to be in this room, but what are the objectives?

00:32:54

Because often often times you can a conversation can keep going and going going and then suddenly your your objectives appear to change. Now, if they are derailed, go back to what those original objectives are. So, maybe it's going into a room and having the objectives written down. So, having three to five objectives that you you would like to leave with um or you believe that that even created this opportunity is not a bad thing. So, that if you do feel a conversation is going is going south or going one way, just go

00:33:20

back to what's written down in front of you and understand which objective you want to really focus on and go back to that. It's like going when you disagree on something, go back to something that you did agree on previously. It's the same with the objectives. Go back to one of your objectives that you know you need to achieve or you would like to achieve here because you've done your research and you know who they are um who the people are on the other side of the table. Go back to the objective and and

00:33:44

get the conversation back on track. >> Okay. If we're strictly looking at this from a sales perspective, is there a certain point by which a deal's gone too far and you can never win it back? I think once emotion takes control, you're probably going to it's probably going to be hard to take it back. Um I think once someone gets to a point of and I'm no no psychologist, but they get angry or they get um they feel disrespected, it's going to be hard to to pull that back.

00:34:10

And maybe that's where you just say, do you know what? Why don't we leave this conversation here and we'll come back to it. Because at the end of the day, um you're pro the deal you're probably doing doesn't have to exist. You think it's right for your company, but it doesn't have to exist. So why let emotions get in the way? So why not just sort of say, do you know what? This conversation's going nowhere. Um why don't we read why don't we come back to

00:34:30

this in a week or so? Um I'll go away and do a bit more research and and and understand a little bit better about what you're saying and perhaps you do the same and then we'll come back to the table. And I think being okay with that is is is is probably going to stand you in goodstead. Have you seen that happen where a deal is going bad, it's going south, negotiations aren't going well, and you've said that and paused it early, then come back and fixed it? >> Not enough, but I've definitely I've

00:34:56

definitely I've I've seen a leader of mine do it, and I was very inspired by that. We were in the same negotiation. It was it was it was great fun. Um, and then there must have been a comment that just turned things. um and she's very good at understanding people's emotions and and read the room pretty quickly. Um and actually before the sort of fire really took off um just stopped it there and made an excuse to leave. I've got to take this call um and left the room and I thought that was brilliant. And then

00:35:23

when you know I was left in the room, there's a bit of tension but the tension wasn't with me. The tension was with the conversation. So um it just diffused what was turning out to be a very uncomfortable situation. And um I'll never forget that. >> What did you take from that? Like how did you change your approach to business meetings? >> It's the taking a breath. Taking a breath when you feel a conversation is going. You don't necessarily need to leave a room and as per that example,

00:35:49

but um she obviously got to a point where she felt this was going to be hard to pull back. So left the room. But I think it's okay just to sort of sit back and and and and take a breath and and say, "I'm just going to think about that for a second because surely that's okay as well. You don't have to answer every question really really quickly. just take a moment just to just to have a think um perhaps say you know what I'll come back to you with that one if it's a particular question and I think that's

00:36:14

that's a very powerful confidence that you can exude is saying I just need a break I just need to think about that no one has all the answers to every single question there's no two ways about that um and I think as we go into this technology world that we're we're obviously steamrolling through now um you won't always have the information to your fingertips tips while you're in a conversation. Um, and knowing that is okay. So, just taking a moment just to step back, have a pause, and then go

00:36:44

again. And I think it's just that um ability to read a room and read people's body movements and body language to understand if if something is getting derailed a little bit and just getting it back because you need to get back on positive terms, whatever happens. Otherwise, you're all going to leave the room frustrated. You've sat at a lot of high stake meetings, I imagine, with some wealthy people and some massive brands and big companies. When you're sitting around a boardroom, what are

00:37:11

some of the things you look for or try to avoid when it comes to body language and posture? >> I'm watching people fidget. I'm very interested in fidgeters. >> Yeah. Just sort of moving your hands and tapping your leg. I think that is a a sure sign that someone is maybe overthinking something or maybe not wanting a question to come to them or they they're feeling uneased. Um or maybe it's just a tick and that's that's totally fine as well. But I love watching out for those characteristics.

00:37:39

You also get the leaders in the room. You get the leaders who have lean forward and they they they dominate the conversation. Um and those are the ones you listen to. you just listen and and and you and you don't agree to everything, but you sort of you nod your head and you know, I'm I'm I'm fully on board with that. But I do love directing conversations to those who are perhaps a little quieter around the table and getting their um and getting their point of view. Um there are some leaders in

00:38:05

teams that perhaps want to dominate the conversation and and everyone else is irrelevant in their team. I'm the opposite. I like coming back into the team and being part of um a group of people rather than an individual leading the stakes, but that's not always the case. And and I think watching out for including people and watching out for the the ones that perhaps don't have the loudest voice um is probably going to give you a more balanced view of what a company is bringing to the table

00:38:30

>> rather than just one individual's um perspective. Have you been in a room where, let's say, there's a decision maker that you're negotiating with and they're kind of happy and they're in agreement, but then there's someone next to them or someone else in the room who's playing black hat who doesn't want them to do the deal. Have you been in a situation where you've had that dynamic? >> Yeah. I think you when they when you you can tell that a couple of people have

00:38:55

said, "I'll I'll play this role and you play that role and and you kind of pick it apart quite quickly." Um, and I I guess you just have to play up to it or or call it out, but but I but I think that shows a little bit of bit of vulnerability on on the other side of the scale there as well. So, um, perhaps a lack of confidence that you need to have these sort of preconceived characteristics or characters that are being played out in a conversation. Um, I think it's about spotting it quite

00:39:21

quickly and then, um, I personally laugh it off. I find it quite quite funny. But but I think it also the greatest challenge is then how do you work with the good and how do you work with the bad? Um and and the bad doesn't necessarily always want to play that role and I think that's what's interesting as well. So how confident are they in their particular role? Um and why is that even a thing? Why why do we always need these good cop bad cop? Um it it it does happen I think bit less

00:39:48

frequently now than than than in the past but um I think picking it out quite quickly is is is always a good game. Okay. How do you pick it out respectfully in a way that doesn't blow up the meeting? >> I think trying to direct the sort of the good questions or or the questions that the good person would like to take towards the towards the opposite. Um, and and what I mean by that is if a if a type of person or the character they're playing is is comfortable receiving a type of question, just divert it to the other

00:40:19

one and see how they react. they might talk over them or the one who's playing bad cop might get a little bit frazzled. Now, this is just might be a little game or whatever it might be, but I think it's around unpacking characters and being an individual and being a human is actually more important around a table than playing a character. And I think that's what's important. Trying to sort of bring everyone to to to being humans and being personal. I think that's that's where we're going to get the most

00:40:44

sort of leverage and the most agreement out of all sorts of terms. Bringing characters up and bringing these facades in front of you, I don't think lends much good to a conversation. >> When you're in a room, what is a tell that someone's playing a character or a facade versus being themselves? >> It's rolling the eyes, isn't it? It's rolling the eyes. It's looking away. It's sort of shaking their head. Now, you get some people who are um quite happy to be almost rude in that regard.

00:41:10

Um, now again, I I've had many times where that's angered me, that someone's actually being rude, but now kind of just sort of accept that that's what they're going to do. And my my role now is to turn them around into a more pacified approach into what this conversation is going to be. Um, now I'm no human behavioral scientist or anything like that, but I think trying to unpack someone's character when they're putting up a clear facade is actually quite an enjoyable process. Um,

00:41:41

it can be tricky because you don't want to be rude and disrespectful to someone, but you also want them just to be a human again. Just come back to where we are and why we're here. Um and and and there's there'll be many ways to do that, but but I think just asking questions that um perhaps let them open up a little bit >> is probably the best way to do that. >> I want to talk a little bit more about calling out the elephant in the room because I've seen and experienced

00:42:06

certain situations where it's backfired, but then others where it's actually played in your favor. Uh there's a funny example I have. I remember when I was I was 22 and I was going for a job at an insurance company and I was in this interview and a friend got me the interview. It's this big company and I remember sitting there and the guy who was interviewing me was fidgeting on his phone. He wasn't paying much attention. He's asking me questions and then looking down at his phone and flicking

00:42:30

through social media and I'm sitting there thinking like this guy's interviewing me. He's not even paying attention to what I'm saying. And I remember saying to him, "Excuse me, do you need a minute to finish something on your phone before we continue the interview?" just a polite shoot across the bow and he looked up at me and he smiled. He goes, "Oh, I'm sorry." And then conducted the interview. But I remember being terrified to ask the question cuz I was like, "Man, this

00:42:51

guy's a guy is probably going to hire me." I found out later it was a test to see if I had a backbone to call him out on the disrespect because if I'm going to go into a sales job on the phone, he wants to know I have a backbone to deal with a tough client. I just thought it was really interesting that he was playing mind games with me and having called that out actually got me the job. Have you seen experienced or dealt with people who are um playing mind games in meetings or or trying to um make things

00:43:19

difficult for you? One of the worst that I've sort of experienced or made me feel most uncomfortable is that sort of condescending attitude. It's sort of I know more than you. I shouldn't really be sitting here with you. And that's happened in internal meetings. It's not just on on external negotiations. Um I worked for a company before where um our stakeholders were sort of external facing salespeople. Um and they had this sort of very um laggarded view on marketing that it sort of it didn't

00:43:51

really matter and it was a bit fluffy and all these sorts of things. Now um those conversations when I would go in those conversations were always very very uncomfortable. I was I would go in showing fear I would think. Um now this was quite a few years ago and and and now it's the world's very different but um it made me feel kind of inferior. Um but what that turned out being was a learning learning that maybe the maybe the lack of confidence was on their side rather than than than my side. Now what

00:44:20

it made me do was a couple of things. Always be prepared so that they couldn't feel that I wasn't bringing anything to the table. that that condescending attitude would s start to lift a little bit once I showed I was very well prepared um and really clear on on why I was there and be quick because the moment I started dragging out conversations with internal stakeholders that just dragged it kind of fueled their fire as to why I shouldn't be there. You should show confidence in your ability and you should show

00:44:50

confidence in your preparation before you go into any form of meeting. Um, now we've got all the tools. You can use your PowerPoints, whatever it might be. But like just showing visibly um what it is that you are there to represent and the research that you've done is super important. Words can take you too far, but I find that that sort of um visual representation of of a world that you're trying to convey actually makes us makes it makes it easier to buy into what we're trying to bring to the table.

00:45:19

Um, so that was my biggest learning in my career to date was was if I go into those meeting with what I would call sharks because they'd eat you up. Um, with a lack of preparation, without any sort of visual representation of what it is that I was there for, um, it would never end well for me and my confidence would get shot to bits. I'd come out of there and then next thing you know, the whole world's falling apart, which it wasn't, but in my mind it was. Now, um, that's made me, this is, you know, 10,

00:45:48

15 years later on, I'm so well prepared now for everything that I do. And I and and and I value that. I value the time taken to prepare is super important. In a room where you walk in and people are challenging you and whether you know what you're doing or not, um, it can be quite an awkward position to be in. I've had sessions where I'm in a high stakes meeting and then the whole meeting is just them vetting out. Are you the guy or the gal who can get this thing done? What are some go-to maneuvers that

00:46:19

someone could use in a meeting where they're getting picked apart whether or not they fit what is required of them? I think asking questions back is super important. I think if you get to a a point where all the questions are coming to you to try and pick you apart, you almost need to put the question back onto the individual who's asking that question. Now, again, that's not very easy. I'm I'm not saying it's easy, but but what it does is show that I'm listen I've heard your question. Maybe a little

00:46:49

bit need a little bit more. Maybe really explain what it is that you're looking to um to to get from me here. Um and then I'll take it away and I'll I'll bring it back. So, not just being that sort of um punching bag and taking all these questions that is making you, you know, seem less confident and and and eroding what it is that that the reason you were being in there. Um I think it's asking questions back, really understanding where it is that they're coming from and where this sort of um

00:47:19

what can feel like an attack coming from because it might not be. They might just be curious, but it might not be coming across like that. So the more questions you ask back and listening to what those answers are can help you change the way you come across as well. >> Could you explain more to me what type of questions you would see in a negotiation or in one of these meetings and how would you break down what types of questions you should be asking? >> I think asking questions that show they

00:47:44

know who you are and why you're there is important. So if I ask a question back um what do you know about my company or what do you know about um the people that work in my team? What do you know about our solutions or any sort of um technologies that we've taken to market? What do you know about us? I think starts to sort of change the the narrative a little bit to be more around okay I've done my research on you. I know who you are. What do you know about us? >> Because at the end of the day if they

00:48:13

start to then answer questions in a certain way maybe their perception's wrong. maybe what they maybe if they haven't done their research, what they what they think of your business or what they think of you is might be inaccurate in your mind. So, I think asking questions back um is the one thing, but asking what they know about you as well. Um and not you as it's the wider you, it's your business, it's your corporation, it's your industry that you might work in. Um I think that's that's

00:48:39

quite crucial, >> especially if they don't know how to answer those questions. It puts you back into a position of power. Like, I've done my homework on you. you haven't done your homework on me, but now let me explain or fill in the gaps for you. Is that >> let me let me talk let me talk you through it and let me let me tell you where I'm coming from. That's exactly >> Is that the playbook? Are you trying to get them to give you permission to speak versus just jumping in and telling them

00:48:58

what what you do and why you're there? >> Well, you should be pretty confident talking about who you're representing, whether that's yourself or your business. So, if you can get onto that topic and you're comfortable talking about yourself or your business, then get on to it. I think there's nothing wrong with that. when you let's say you're in a meeting and versus just jumping in and saying I'm going to tell you all about me and my company and what we do starting by asking the question is

00:49:21

does that change the dynamic of of the room if you ask the question first? >> Yeah, I think it shows that you're willing to listen and understand where where they're coming from and what their perceptions are and then it becomes a discussion because really you want to get into a conversation about about whether it's your businesses, whether it's yourself. get to conversations rather than statements as fast as possible. I think um once you start making statements, you're starting to

00:49:48

believe your own truth a little bit too much maybe. So I think getting into conversations makes you um understand who they are as well. The way that they're asking questions and the way they're listening to your answers um really helps understand the dynamic between the two of you. And um I think breaking down any pre preconceived conceptions is also a good way to do that through conversation. when you're when you're in a negotiation and we're going back and forth and we're asking

00:50:12

questions, what are other things people can do to improve their ability to ask questions versus making statements? >> I think once you you've listened and you've and understood where where both both parties are, I think just taking the time to to change the topic is always a good one. So, being able to and capable of uh moving a topic on when you kind of feel like it's exhausted is is a good thing. um feeling the body language change a little bit and knowing that you know maybe that's time just to move on

00:50:42

from there. I think identifying that is is is super important. So how do you do that? Creating um a sort of a bridging comment or a or a statement or or a question that just sort of clearly ends that topic and then we move on to the next one because once you drag something out you kind of you're probably going to lose a lot of momentum. You're going to lose a lot of um that sort of connection. So understanding, you know, having in your pocket a couple of sort of changing topics or changing questions

00:51:11

that just sort of bridge that gap and and clearly end a moment and then we'll start a new one because dragging something out, it's probably not going to end well. I think showing a little bit of authority on that as well. So showing some leadership and in understanding that perhaps the conversation or the the discussion point is nearing an end there. Um and being able to go, right, that sounds great. Really happy with that. I'm really looking forward to moving to the next one. Shall we move on?

00:51:35

>> Thinking about all of this, would you say that the most powerful tool in a negotiation is the ability or the learned ability on how to ask questions? >> Yeah, I think that's I think it's a great shout. I think um it's showing an an inquisitive nature that is is super important. I think going back to preparation and going in with armed with questions is is is a good way to do it. And I think, you know, with all these AI platforms that we have at our disposal, there's no excuse for not going in with

00:52:04

sort of 10 questions in your pocket that say, um, you know, I'm I'm here to learn. I'm here to understand. Um, and I think being able to do that is a is is a real talent and a real skill. And it shows a, um, again, an empathy that you're you're willing to listen. You're willing to learn from others. It's not just all about you and and you portraying what you want to say. Have you been in a situation where people in the room might be insecure? And I can give you an example. So oftentimes I'm

00:52:32

talking to people uh in teams, right? So, I'm talking to the founder who owns the brand, but they might have their own head of marketing, their own internal graphic designer, and here I am an external third party in a conversation suggesting what them and their team should do when they have their own team that may or may not have expertise that overlap of mine. And it can cause a bit of friction inside of a meeting because there's insecurity. Uh, you know, people are trying to defend their jobs and their titles. How do you

00:53:00

deal with that kind of energy in a team? >> Yeah, it's an interesting one. I'm finding that in this sort of marketing world that we're in now, the role of the creative agency is still very powerful, but I think the way you brief now is changing completely because you can do your own research and you can sort of almost explain exactly what you would like. Now, in the olden days, I feel like um a creative agency or someone working in as a creative might be a little bit offended by the fact

00:53:28

that you're almost dictating what it is that you would like to see. Now, I think there's a real great collaboration that happens now between a client and a creative creative agency. And I think going into what you mentioned there, it was sort of, hey, this is my role, that's your role. You just sort of brief in and I'll and I'll and I'll do the rest. Um, it's actually becoming much more of a partnership now. Um, and I and and I I think that the better agencies are the ones that accept that and and

00:53:54

and embrace it. um the conversations that you have are more around um discussing what's on the brief rather than um trying to suggest that someone's trying to be built out of a role or whatever it might be. More more building a partnership and a collaboration. >> Now, what are some of the tools that you use to do research? Do you have a go-to um step process or or a platform that you like to use? So personally, I'm I'm I'm consuming as much information as I possibly can from wherever. And that may

00:54:26

sound quite broad because it is. It it depends on the sort of the situation and the topic and and who the individual is on the other end. Um you've got all your sort of business networking tools. Um but you've also got every news outlet out there. And I think there's, as we've said before, there's no excuse for not digging really deep into um not just a company, but also the industry they operate in. Understanding what their regulatory um kind of climate is. people are often

00:54:58

operating in environments that are very regulatory um uh very powerful in that regard and they're never far away from kind of getting up in front of a a regulator and that's not a very comfortable place to be. Now, if you understand that about a company and you understand that about an industry, it's a um it's going to stand you in betterstead. So, it's not necessarily just researching the financial performance or the individuals they're in, but the operating environment that

00:55:24

they're in. And I I personally spend a lot of time going down that route. >> What What else would you say that would allow someone to do a better job of that? >> I think curiosity is is is is probably where it's at. Um you'll find that as you're doing your research and you're really looking into something, you're actually learning. Um now, I wasn't great at university. I didn't love it. I did it because it was the right thing to do at the time. Um I've got a Spanish

00:55:48

degree that I've never used again, but that's just what it is. It was just what I did. Um but my curiosity is learning now in in a different way. It's not sitting in a lecture hall and it's not being educated at. It's around spending time reading, understanding, caring about operating environments or within demographics that are perhaps more challenging that I probably don't know more. something you mentioned earlier about being a good brand custodian, being a good representative

00:56:18

of the brands you work for with or are collaborating with. When you think about one of the brands that you're working for now, how do you respectfully act as a custodian on behalf of something that literally has thousands of people working and representing the brands? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I I was once told that um a brand opens a door, not a person. So when it comes to a sales perspective, um you know, the brand is a is this very very powerful aura um that exists around all of us. And I think

00:56:48

that's actually quite exciting. And I think a lot of what we do or we've done in the past is really getting our people to buy into the brand and what it represents. Um and not just value, but but trust in the brand and the mechanics that make the brand what it is. And I think educating internally is is a really really good starting point there. Um externally there's a there's a number of ways that you can market a brand that you can advertise that you can stand for um community and you can stand for

00:57:19

credibility. Um but I think for me the the fulcrum of success when it comes to brand custodianship is around the people and getting everyone to buy into it. And I don't just mean everyone wearing the same color cap or or color socks. I'm talking about really buying into why we exist. Um, and for me that is brand. That brand is why we exist. Um, and if our people buy in, I think we're halfway there. If you take into account someone who's not yet created the aura to their brand that you're speaking about, what

00:57:47

are some of the things someone could do to create their own brand that has their own aura to give their team um, that edge or that advantage over the competition? >> Yeah. Yeah. I like the question. and I I moved from a big company to a to a startup as I mentioned earlier and um and the brand wasn't well known. I was employee number 13. Um they're they're they're very big now and doing very well. I'm very proud to have been part of their journey. But part of the the role that marketing played then was

00:58:14

creating a buyin to the brand. Um and we had a a very colorful brand. It was um brand new and no one really knew it and and and that's fine. But then comes that word culture. So, how is the brand affecting the culture and creating a buy into what you're doing? So, I don't mean forced fun. So, forced fun for me in that sort of corporate world is um very hard to take. I mean really buying into um a sort of collaboration and a community inside. Um now you can do that in many many ways. It can it can be

00:58:50

through activities. It can be through throwing on drinks on a Friday, whatever it might be. But it's a consistency. It's a it's constantly buying into your people and reaffirming that we're here for a good reason. Um, and then also asking them to really showcase the brand where they can talk to it. Um, ask questions about it because it as a brand can be any number of things and and it's not just a logo. It's it's an identity. And the most exciting part of being at a startup was sort of almost creating an

00:59:19

identity from from scratch. You can you can almost be what you want to be. Um but also listening to people you know not enough listening happens at brand level as well. What do you think of us? How do we when you see us what what do you feel? Now it's very easy for a big brand to do that because they've got the sort of funds to research that at at great length whereas a smaller brand doesn't get to do that. So getting out and about talking to partners talking to suppliers what do you think about us

00:59:48

when you see us? What do you feel? Um because then you take that information back and you can kind of build on it. Um but but without asking the question and without really hearing firsthand what people are buying in from the outside, it's very difficult to know what where your brand's going, >> right? I kind of imagine, you know, how people used to go on to American Idol or Australian Idol and they would think they're amazing and then they would sing and then the judges are reacting and

01:00:13

going, "That's awful." You know, I see a lot of brands have that where they think their brand is exceptional and then you think about how the market actually sees them. How can people look at their brand naked in a sense where they're not being disillusioned by their affinity or their love of it? Expecting people to love who you are and who you represent is not the way to do it. It's around showing that. So, showing that through your people or showing that through investment into

01:00:36

various different sort of community elements. Um, there shouldn't be more pride than helping others. um as a brand. Um now there's a there's a ton of um sort of exercises that we've done um in all sorts of companies that I've worked in where you know either feeding sort of homeless people or um you know going collecting clothes for for the more needy. And I think those sort of elements that are away from your everyday work actually really add up and and they're fantastic. But so there's

01:01:05

those sort of demonstrations of of community support. Um, but I think then it's just around consistency of what you're trying to represent and being being always there at the right time and saying the right things and and and I think that comes through to your people. >> What's been your best experience of observing someone's company culture that's impressed you and made you think, "Wow, I've not seen that before. That's interesting." >> Yeah. My first job in Australia um was

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for a big South African bank and I would go out and say that I've never seen a culture like that before. There was a there was about 450 of us I think it was at one point um all with one common goal all very proud to represent who we were representing. Um we loved what we did and we loved doing it together and I think that was the important thing and I think that emanated out as well. So we had a um again a very colorful brand that that stood out in the marketplace but we were happy to talk to it. Um I

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was also working uh in Australia when there was a royal commission into the banking industry and you sort of your pride was lost a little bit because you was almost felt embarrassed because of all these things that were going through the media. Now, um I worked in financial services before and after that moment and before there was this sort of love and affinity and I think once you get that back um it it it's a great place to be. You don't want people to not admit where they work. You don't want people

01:02:34

to not be proud of where they work. And and I think getting to a point where as a leadership team you you create that pride, I think it's going to create amazing output and it's going to create great productivity as well. >> Okay. Something else I'd like to talk about is you sit at a very unique >> position in the market where you get to see a lot of data. Let's just say that. Yeah. And you're seeing um financial data, you're seeing market data, you're seeing business data. What's some of the

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things that you've noticed at the moment because it feels like we're at a really interesting time where everything's shifting at the same time. What's your take on it? Do you feel like things are the same as they've always been or do you think that we're actually living at an intersection where where we're experiencing change? >> I think we're experiencing a tidal wave of data. And I and I think that the most important part of all of this is the insight we derive from that

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data. So spending the time to really work with experts. You don't need to be an expert at data, but you need to be very good at understanding what it is that you're seeing and giving an opinion. And I think being okay to give that opinion. So being having a succinct amount of insight based on a lot of data is actually one of the real powers I think in in the general operating world that we are at the moment. So not every data point is going to be a ve of very use to everyone. >> Okay. When you're when you're looking at

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how the market is moving right now, it feels like I've never had access to so much data at the at my on my phone. I can access and ask any question I like and get a full comprehensive data set on kind of anything I want to think about. Has this muddied the waters and made marketing more difficult or has it made it easier? >> Maybe it's done both. Maybe it made it easier because you've really got a better understanding of of the marketplace and the audiences that you're trying to connect with, but it

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might have made it harder because it's very difficult to understand the most powerful data points that you have or should there be 10 or 20 and and I think really the skill is around creating an insight. So, and what I mean by that is is a commentary and almost a storytelling about what the data is telling you and that should then inform your next step. So um from a marketing perspective, it could be to create a campaign, it could be to create a new channel to market, whatever it might be. And it could be taking into negotiations

01:04:56

around, um the power of what it is that you're bringing to the table is the amount of data that I have. Not all of it is is available in the public domain. Some of it's commercially sensitive, whatever it is. But being able to tell a story that is the insight, I think is the most powerful thing. And I think where analysts are amazing um is around generating that sort of storytelling that narrative over the top of the data because there's just so much there. So I think it's a good thing and a bad thing

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and I think it's just around simplifying it, creating succinct commentary that really guides to that objective around why you've even pulled the data, why are you even looking at this thing, >> right? Because before you said that you can look at a pile of data and kind of come to any conclusion that you want. Um I I I'm imagining it almost like a a magic lamp and a genie and infinite wishes. I can I I'm just going to be perplexed because there's so many questions I could ask. There's so many

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wishes I could command and then I'm spoiled for choice. Do do you think that marketing perhaps if it does appear to be more complicated has become complicated because now we're spoiled for choice? >> I think absolutely. I think we've got more channels to market. We've got more data points feeding into into us and and and and really to your point muddying the waters on what is the most accurate and most important data point that's out there. Um but but it's a blessing to

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have that much confidence in what you're what you're seeing out there and what the data is telling you. having that much ability to read that much is is a really amazing place to be. Um I think it's just around making sure it's succinct and really understanding what are the sort of key data points that you that you want to work on. So recently I thought it would be really fun to start a shoe brand. And I can't talk about what I'm doing yet, but it's pretty crazy. And I remember one evening I

01:06:39

spent man probably eight or nine hours just going through shoe data. And I just remember feeling super overwhelmed and super perplexed by the amount of data I was looking at through these AI channels. When you're looking at an ocean of data, what do you look for? How do you draw insights? How do you know that your guts picking the right things up? So there's trends in there and I think I think experience helps you with that. But you're looking at um what are the outliers and I like seeing why the

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outliers are there. So if there's a a mass data point collecting in the middle, why are the outliers the way they are? And I think >> could you create an example just to take us through this? >> Yeah. So I think um if you're looking at the performance of high street retail stores for example um and you're looking at footfall, you're looking at foot traffic, understanding when they're the busiest and when they're at their least busy and why is is is a really interesting one. So, you're looking at

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the time of day, for example. You might be looking at the weather, whatever it might be. Yeah. So, if you if you've got a store opening hour from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Um, and there's very little foot traffic in the first thing in the morning and very little foot traffic at the end of the day. I think understanding what drives that sort of behavior, why there's so little impact. What is it around the surrounding area that creates this sort of lack of traffic is actually an interesting data

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point to me, even though other people might ignore it and go, "Well, that that's not of no interest. there's no one there. Why is there no one there? Can can we generate an extra couple of hours either side of your trading day by understanding who's around and who your who your sort of customer base is and where they're coming from? Um, can you put on a courtesy bus to come to your come to your store and create that extra hour because you're bringing people from um from a an area of the city where they

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probably wouldn't normally come over to. Things like that I think are the most most sort of exciting part of reading data. So there's lots in the middle. We get that. I like to understand why the outliers the way they are. And you can always dismiss them, but spend some time really understanding them, not just the mass. >> What's something interesting you found in the outliers that have um that has surprised you in the past? >> The behaviors that you've seen businesses conduct and and the sort of

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commonalities between has been interesting. So, um, we've actually picked up the phone to a couple of customers who have have been sort of outside of the traditional data points and and and really spent the time speaking to them and understanding, you know, why they were trading up at a certain time when others weren't, for example. Um, and just hearing from them firsthand. Um if you have a customer base that's very engaged and very receptive to to you as a as an individual or a group of individuals um

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pick up the phone to them and understand you know why why they are perhaps trading out outside. So, um we've seen businesses in the past who um who have opened very late and that's that's to allow for young parents, for example. They've got to pick up the kids from school and they've got to do all the home stuff and and and then they then they're allowing to go to the dentist, for example. So, opening a dental practice at 8 n:00 at night when the kids are in bed, that's the time you can

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go because otherwise you're just stuck during those working hours and you've got to take time off work and all this sort of thing. So we found that by picking up the phone and understanding um you know why it is that they opened the the sort of clinic or the practice at a certain time really opened our eyes to them creating an empathy with their customer base. So they understood that um that they couldn't necessarily service all of their customers just in the in the working day. it would either

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be all in the weekend and not everyone can go on the weekend um or they they basically open for for a couple of extra hours during a weekday and they advertised that and I thought that was very clever. >> Uh there was a gym nearby that had a crash where you could put your children and I remember looking around Sydney and there's no gym in like a 40-minute drive from where we live right now that has a crash. Meanwhile, there's a ton of parents that live here. I just thought it was I was baffled when you think

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about those conversations that you have with those clients. Let's say you find an outlier, you make a phone call. What are some of the questions you should be asking if someone were to listen to this and go, I want to try that. I want to start ringing customers in the outlier components of my business. What should I be looking for? >> Yeah, I think it's around sort of almost saying that you're impressed with the way they're doing things differently. So, um, you can always say, you noticed

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that you're you're you're operating your business in a slightly different way to some of your competitors or some other, you know, peers that you have in your industry. Um, and and certainly expressing that you're impressed with the way they're thinking differently. Um, the world would be very boring if we all operated in exactly the same way. And understanding why people operate differently and what the sort of drivers were for that um is also important. Um, so I think just really positioning the

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question around um, I'm impressed with what you're doing. I'd love to learn more. Really, you'll find that people open up. >> Now, can we talk a little bit more about leadership and you're in a position where you're in charge and you're responsible for a lot of team members. Could you just unpack a little bit about how big your team is and what your day-to-day and what your week might look like just generally speaking? Yeah, my my sort of day-to-day team there's

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there's 11 of us um in in different sort of levels. Um we fit into a team of about 300. So um it's it's sizable, but I think the important thing there is we're a very flat structure and I really like that. So so as a leader I feel like I'm part of the team. I don't think I lead the team. Okay. >> I think I can I can always lead the team in my behaviors. I can always lead the team in in the the sort of the way that I speak and the respect that I show to everyone. Um but being part of the team

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is actually the best place to be. Um now I may have more experience and I may have spent more time um doing this particular job but I don't have the same perspectives as everyone and I'm not going to know them unless I feel part of the team. So I like to foster and create an an energy in the team that is total um buyin as one team. Um, and I'm always happy to represent them because I feel part of them. >> Can you give me an example of what benefits that comes with and maybe the

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risks of having a flat structure? >> The benefits are that you're all pulling towards one common goal. And I think when you feel like you create a goal together and you create an objective together, you're more likely to all pull in the same direction. And I think that's um, you know, that's that's the most important thing. Um, I think where it might fall down every now and again is um if there's a lack of respect that that that exists in there for each other. And I don't mean that in in a

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hierarchy point of view. I mean the lack of respect for the roles that we all bring and the sort of um characters that we are and the behaviors we bring. Um if you are all kind of at the same a similar level for example um it doesn't take much to create a little clique. And if you have a little click and you're not of that that big a team, you're in a bit of trouble. >> What have um some things that you've learned over the years to be a better leader? What are what are the main

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traits you've learned to adopt over your career? >> So I think of two two things really. Um going back to showing vulnerability. So showing where you are fallible I think is super important. where you perhaps have made a decision that you you trusted your convictions and it didn't actually end up going that well I think is not a bad thing to talk through to explain it doesn't mean to say that the decision you made was wrong it just didn't play out right and I think that's

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fine because what that does is foster a culture of transparency and honesty um I personally would love to know if something has gone a little arai or is not quite gone right I'd love to know really upfront um and I've had leaders who who demonstrate that as Well, and they don't necessarily create an air of fear when you make a mistake. They actually encourage it. Um, too often we can fall into a um into a yes culture. And I think that's quite dangerous for any any business. So, um, if you're a

01:14:46

yes culture and you only share the good news all the way up the chain to the CEO, I think they're ne never really going to understand what the truth is and how how perhaps people have worked through adversity transparently and honestly with each other to create a successful outcome. Um, so a yes culture, breaking down a yes culture, I think starts with with all leaders and actually all within everyone just to be able to go um, put my hand up, something's happened and be comfortable with that. I don't think anyone's really

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going to tell you off anymore for for making a little mistake. I think if you are if there are systemic issues in there, that's very different to sort of um trying to create a a moment or a project or launch something that you believe in and it doesn't quite work. >> Now, around the the cultural piece that you're talking about with the team, having a flat structure, really trying to do business with them and share common goals and write our goals together. I love all of this. Do do you

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guys have some values or some principles that you live by? Um some things that you've been able to introduce into the team that that has created result. >> So the one I stand by and I and I always will is is an 8020 rule. So 80% is stuff that you enjoy doing and 20% is stuff you have to do. Now no one is ever going to really do 100% of what they love doing, but I think 80% will always carry your 20. So if you do 80% of what you do, so um you know that's a lot of hours in any day, you

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love it, you enjoy it, you're bought into it, you're passionate about it, that'll carry your 20%. The 20% it could be admin, it could be invoicing, all the things that you probably don't feel a lot of love for, but they've got to be done to create a successful business. So I'm 8020 through and through. I love it. I I swear by it, and I encourage it at the beginning and the end of every financial year. um analyzing how we've gone on the 8020. If you feel you've gone up to 7030, I think then you need

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to have a conversation around prioritization, around capacity management. Are my resources okay? Are my team uh feeling well supported? Um because as soon as that sort of 30 creep 20 creeps up into a 30, I think you're in a bit of trouble. >> What's the difference between 8020 and 7030? Why is that the tipping point? Well, I think because then suddenly you um it's kind of the scope creep comes in. So if you're comfortable with the 20 that you've got and it then becomes 30,

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what's the next one going to be? Or what's tomorrow going to bring me if I've allowed this one to slip already? Or is is Ed my leader um protecting me enough and and the work that I'm doing? Why am I getting loaded all this work I don't like anymore? And I think it's just creep. And I think it's just 20 is obviously a nominal number and 30 is a nominal number, but I think it's just showing that there's a bit of growth in the stuff that you don't necessarily

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feel passionate about. Now, if you've got a decentsized team and and even if you don't, you got a smaller team, you all bring different skill sets and you all bring different behaviors, surely you can share the load and you can share some of the tasks that you might find m find mundane to someone else who actually probably gets a bit of a thrill out of it. So, I think it's more about the creep. I want to talk about what it's like to be a marketer in a world where it feels like you have to be a

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walking miracle. Meaning uh us founders and founders have a great ability to just say to a marketing team, figure it out. You're marketers. I need you to make content. I need you to film and edit stuff. I need you to post and schedule. I need you to be a social media expert and a platform expert and a meta ads expert and a Google expert and a email marketing expert. How do you mitigate the pressure from a large company like yours where they just try to ram a lot of responsibility into a small team?

01:18:28

>> I think it starts with not accepting a an ask which is definitive of channel. And what I mean by that is if someone says to me, I want to do a social media post, there's nothing that really winds me up more than I want to do this. It's more why do you want to do this? and what is it that's got you to a point where you want to put this message out there. Um, I think we as marketers, we understand the channels at our disposal much better than perhaps a sales function will, but it's our job to

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explain back that there are multiple options at play here. If you let me build out a go to market plan on your behalf rather than be explicit in what you want me to do, you're probably going to get better results. And I think having confidence in that and I think demonstrating as well. So going back with um an answer not just to say yep I'll do a social media post for you. It's more like have you considered this or I've done this in the past and I've laid out sort of different channels to

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market and why why they were effective and why the audience was receptive to them. I think that creates a much better conversation as to what is the common goal and what's the common objective here rather than can I do a social media post >> doesn't end well. How do you manage the pressure from people that in the company might not understand the responsibility and might just make random requests? Like I'm sure you've been in roles before, maybe in the startup, where you're just the brunt of everything that

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the the founder or the team might need. It's interesting how blame can get a portion to different teams and different scenarios. Um, an easy solution to blame a marketing team or whatever it might be. And I think being resilient to that is is is one thing. And knowing that perhaps they don't mean it. It's just an easy way to project what it is that they're thinking and and actually maybe if we got to the crux of the issue together, it wouldn't have to be any one department's fault or problem. Um, but

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we can all bring different solutions to the table that would help unpack something. Um, so bringing the blame game, I think identifying the blame game pretty quickly and and being confident enough to say, do you know what? Maybe marketing isn't to blame. Maybe we've been doing things right all this time, but we're happy to change. Maybe we're happy to bring a different scenario to you or we're happy to bring a different go to market plan to you um based on the fact that you haven't bought into this

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because if a a sales team or um or another department in a business doesn't buy into what you're doing, they're never going to stand up for your brand and they're never going to sort of um speak confidently about all the work that you're doing collectively. So, I think being part of a a a multitude of functions and all bringing their best is is probably what's going to mitigate the blame and and building something together and being honest and and open about what you're building.

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>> Has there has there been a campaign you've ran that has surprised you with the outcome? >> I'd hope there's been quite a few. Um there there was one recently that we did that um we really changed the way we went about sharing sharing insights. We used to share insights in a um really long form report that we thought you know everyone wants to see exactly all the data that we have and it's 36 pages and this is the way to do it. Now, we tore that up and and we decided to go

01:21:51

down a different route around infographics. And the reason uh I call that one out in particular is to have the confidence to reduce the length of the report that you were putting out there into almost six stylistically created um visual representations of what you had built actually created far more interest. there was that sort of we know that the the attention span of individuals now is much shorter. Maybe it's the same with things like reports. Maybe maybe it's sort of a being a bit clever in where you place a snapshot

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rather than a long form um asset is is probably where we've found the greatest success of late. And we we managed to get it into new channels. We we did a lot of advertising with Uber, for example. um really sort of focusing in on um on location um around a certain around a big event that we had, but really leveraging that sort of snapshot rather than the long form report. That's been my my favorite thing to change of late. Just really reducing the asset that you have into a a more of a

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bite-size component rather than a long form. Yeah, with marketing it it's from my experience, you've got a finite amount of attention before you kind of wear people out. And when we're thinking about the pitch, let's say a pitch for a campaign, um why is it so critical that less is more? Why is it so crucial that we don't overwhelm people with data and facts and paragraphs and what what is the art form? What is that tight rope to make sure that we can get an idea from our minds into another individual's

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mind? Yeah, I I I I think the key there is the fact that your audience has a finite amount of brain space for what it is that you're putting into market. So, if you try and flood every channel, um it's going to be harder to report on that and to to optimize on that because you've got too many channels to market, but also your audience, you know, you do want them to see a brand and you do want them to see your asset as many times as as possible. But I think being sensitive to the fact that it doesn't need to be

01:23:54

at every channel and flooding every channel, there's no economies of scale in that regard. So, if you're just you're just filling every channel you possibly can for the sake of it, I feel like you're not going to get the the greatest amount of engagement and impact than if you just kind of you might start with say, let's call it six channels, but by the end you might only have three because they're the ones that are really optimizing. And that's because your audience are choosing to engage with you

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in those channels. >> I I love how you've spent so much time on finessing yourself and progressing your career over time. You've also talked about how you spent um your early 20s in Dubai chasing parties, not getting much sleep, coming into work with this alpha apex predator kind of mentality where you wanted to be sharpnosed and and make sure things were getting done and things were getting across the line. How have you learned to soften over the years? How has that benefited your career? Uh and and how

01:24:48

can we learn from that? You know, Dubai was a and still is a wonderful city that in 2004 to 2009 when I was there, it was growing and it was sort of new hotels were opening all the time and new party venues and you just felt like there was always somewhere you could be. You're 24 years old and you're, you know, you're invincible in many ways. And I think I got a little bit caught up in that sort of um that excitement and and feeling that I was on, you know, on this sort of amazing um amazing path. And I think

01:25:17

having a few hard knocks along the way wasn't wasn't a bad thing. Um, the biggest learning was accepting fault when it was there. Um, you mentioned like an apex predator. I don't think I was quite predator, but I was an apex sort of character that that sort of really wanted to prove myself all the time and I and I I wouldn't accept any form of um defeat in any sort of in in any any sort of um grounds. And I think I I've softened over time in that you don't have to win at everything and you

01:25:49

don't have to know everything and you don't have to be um the best at everything. You just have to be part of something pretty cool. And I think being part of a a team that's that's high performing or a business that's performing well, not because of you, but because of a team, I think that's where it's come into. And knowing that um perhaps you're not an island all the time is actually where a lot of growth comes. Um and it certainly did for me knowing that it wasn't me against the

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world. it was, you know, it's us against the world. And I think that's that's um that's a pretty cool place to be. >> What do you think it was that um put you in a position in your life where you didn't want to admit defeat? >> I grew up playing a lot of sport and I think it was that sort of competitive instinct that existed um on the sports field. Now, I'm certainly someone who won't go on a sports field to compete. I think you should be there to win and my

01:26:41

poor daughters because they're probably going to grow up with that as well. But um but I I I I love the thought of winning in a competitive environment, but as soon as you win the game, it's shake your hands and you and you move on. Um when it bleeds into your your personal life and your everyday life and comes off the sports field. Um for me, that's where the lines were blurred a little bit too much. Um, now you can have that competitive instinct and it's fun to sort of um know that you've got

01:27:07

something just right, but accepting that that not everything you do is going to be bang on and you're not going to sort of win everything. >> What was the thing that caused you to change from always wanting to win to embracing the team and being a bit less hard-nosed about things? I think working for um a couple of businesses that I have done where I felt part of a collective environment that was was exciting to be a part of. I think that's where where it really stood out. So we've mentioned

01:27:39

culture a couple of times. When I felt like that cultural identity was there and we all bought into it, it was way more exciting than trying to win as an individual collectively creating an outcome or getting to an objective that we set out together. Doing that together was always far more appealing. And I think that's happened over um the last 10 years or so, 10, 15 years where I felt part of really cool teams with good people who all have that sort of common goal and we trust each other. And I think that's that's where

01:28:13

our identity as teams gets formed when we have that respect for each other. Um it's been a really exciting time to be a part of teams when you're collectively winning. >> I think that's a really important revelation. I I remember a quote from Arnold Schwarzenegger where he talked about there was a moment in his career where everything felt like it was going against him and he said that he intentionally changed it so that everything felt like it was for him. and he's got this quote in his book called

01:28:40

Total Recall. And he said that rather than walking around Venice Beach thinking the whole world's out to get me because at the time he was trying to, you know, go to film school to learn how to act and he was bodybuilding at the same time and winning competitions. He said a simple belief that he changed was instead of the whole world's out to get him, he trained himself to believe that the whole world was out to help him. So by changing his belief system, he felt that he changed his aura or how he'd

01:29:09

walk into a room or how people would react to his energy. >> What did that change in your life when you went from I'm going to fight these people, I'm going to win. I won't accept defeat to I'm going to collaborate. I'm going to work with the people around me. What What is that energy shift? Because I I'm imagining that it's changed your life in many ways. >> I think generating a mutual respect from the expertise that you bring to a table. Not everyone has the knowledge that you

01:29:34

necessarily have and you certainly don't have theirs as well. And I think understanding a collective power of um once we put our minds together and we bring our own expertise to a table, it actually creates something we never thought we could get to. Um and I think being from a marketing point of view, we never really felt the right to be at the table when it came to sort of business performance. And I think now because we can justify and we can prove through the data that we have that what we're doing

01:30:05

creates commercial growth. I think then you know knowing that we're the experts in what we do and being comfortable with that and bringing that to the table listening to others and what their expertise is that combined force is super powerful. >> Now something else you mentioned is that you mentioned that you didn't like the guy you used to be. Who was that guy? and why don't you like him? >> Uh, he was just he was just a bit overconfident, I think. Um, he was having a great time in life, but he was

01:30:34

he was very confident in his in his own ability. I don't think um enough had gone wrong in that in that time frame. And I think that that's an experience thing. I think as you spend more time working, you're going to have more uphill battles and headwinds that you're going to come across, but it's rather than fighting those, it's sort of working with them. And I think I always used to um have so much self-belief that it would come across as overconfidence. Um now I look back at at that guy and I

01:31:08

he was he was great. He was great fun. He was a party boy. But um but he didn't learn quick enough from from others. And I think he didn't he wasn't receptive enough of um other people's opinions. And now I like to think I spend a lot more time listening and a lot more time understanding others and and and their behaviors and and why they exist in a in a commercial environment. Um certainly more than I ever used to and it's it's a lot more endearing I think. >> Was slowing down and adapting harder

01:31:44

work than being your old self? >> Yeah, I think so. I think it was um I think things just change. Time just time time just time just moves on and I think that's absolutely fine. >> You've worked in the UK, in Dubai, Australia. I imagine you've done business abroad as well. What have you learned having spent time in these different countries about how to build relationships um when it comes to business? >> Yeah, I think the the Australians are are pretty open to a chat. they wouldn't

01:32:15

mind a little little conversation. And I think that's that's pretty cool. In Dubai, it was very um very linear. It was very transactional. Um and I think in the UK it was kind of a blend of the two. Um I love the environment that Australian business brings. It's um it's got a little abrasive edge to it, but at the end of the day um people are very receptive of each other and I think they're very warm to each other. Um I've worked in other markets where perhaps that warmth didn't exist. Um, I like to

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think I have a sort of a softer interior, a more sensitive side. So, I quite like that um that that people first approach when it's very transactional. I I I don't you won't get the best out of me when it's just transactional. I think you need to need to understand each other a bit more than that. >> If you're thinking about yourself and in the space you're in now and all the experience you have collectively, what what do you think is your superpower when it comes to marketing?

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Yeah. So there there might be someone in the team who is a little bit more sort of commercially u minded. They might have a really good understanding of what a product construct looks like. Um there might be someone who is really really powerful in in creating um industry partnerships for example. I think taking sort of financial acumen taking commercial nouse and creating that sort of softer skill and the relationship management. If you can create a team where you all complement each other, um

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then you're going to create a more powerful one. Um I've got a team now that we all complement each other in terms of skill sets. Um, and that makes me feel more comfortable that we're going to create a common goal whatever happens and whatever we're faced with because we've all got different skills and one of you is going to rise to the top um when the other one is feeling a little bit more uncomfortable because it's probably not your area of expertise or the conversation's gone down a way

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that you you're not as comfortable. Um, but knowing each other has each other's backs and you've got these different skill sets and combined is what creates the power. When you think about marketing holistically, a lot of people get confused about advertising, marketing, consumer research, analyzing data, creativity, design, branding. How how do you tend to look at the market when you see all of all of these moving pieces? >> Yeah. When I see it all out there, it's um you try and pick out the why. I think

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I think why does a brand exist? Why why is a certain channel being used? I love walking down a street and and taking in all of the different sort of visual identities that are out there, all the different sort of brand cues that exist within any creative um creative asset and really learning as to why. Who are you trying to speak to here? Who are you trying to get noticed by? And if it's me, great. I'm probably looking at it looking for it because that's kind of the nature of the work that I'm in. I'm

01:35:00

looking to learn from from other platforms. But but I think it's just knowing that there is just so much out there and not all of it needs to be for you um is the most exciting thing. But at the same time, if you're sort of on a on a platform like YouTube and you're getting served different adverts, I'm like, why am I getting served that one? What was the thinking behind it? What's the cohort I'm in here? And I think I probably spent a little little bit too much time doing that rather than just be

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entertained by what's being put in front of me. >> Now, when you're doing marketing, you're looking advertising, content, campaigns, etc. How do you split the difference between commercial acumen and raw creativity that is going to strike a nerve and get people to pay attention? >> I'm always going to start with the commercial the commercial acumen to be honest with you. Um I think none of this is worth a huge amount without commercial growth, without business growth. Um and I think you need to find

01:35:51

that that common strand, that DNA between what you're doing and the activity you're building and commercial growth. And even if it is, you feel like it's slightly um slightly skewed or slight not not as linear as it as you'd like it to be, knowing that it is still there and that you're contributing to business growth is super important. I think the days of um just getting marketing out there and seeing engagement numbers and and reach alone is not enough. You want to be seen. You

01:36:20

want to be noticed. But I think if it's not driving an outcome that is linked directly to to commercial growth or business growth, it feels like an unnecessary investment in some ways. And if we go back to sitting at the table and being comfortable with the fact that you as a marketer are at the table for a reason and being able to attribute something back to that commercial growth, there's probably little more satisfying than that. If you were to think about what's getting attention in today's economy

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with the younger generation, what have you noticed that's surprised you? >> Well, I think the short attention span is um quite intimidating at times. I think getting trying to get a a very powerful message into sort of six, seven seconds is um is is really quite something. And it goes to show you that perhaps you don't need to get the whole message into your seven seconds. Um, maybe it is a series of assets that you need to put together that combined would have been an old school 30-cond ad, for

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example. But like, but I think it's just the the generation coming through now, they're digitally savvy by nature, and I think that is something you need to embrace. They're understanding of the fact that they are opting in or they're giving consent for you to to market to them. Um, and you have to respect that. I think that the power of learning that we are in now is so much more advanced and so much quicker because it's all at your fingertips. You can learn about moon travel just as quickly as you can

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you can learn around the bus routes that are being created in the city because it's all at your fingertips. And I think being respectful of the fact that people can see through the fluff and they can see through um you putting out something that is just to catch attention I think is um it's an interesting place to be. people know what they're looking at and they know what they're looking for. Now, >> what mistakes do you think most brands are doing right now when it comes to

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marketing, >> creative out there for the sake of creative being out there? Um, if again it goes back to being able to tie that to commercial activity. I see some brands out there that are just in every bus stop and in every they're on the phone all the time. It's just every channel is being flooded. And I think the the perception that you need to be seen all the time in order to be bought into um is happening a little bit too much at the moment. So I think flooding too many channels is probably the one.

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How can you possibly optimize when you're in every single channel? I just I just think there's so much wastage there from a spend point of view having worked for big corporations and startups. I think the greatest thing I learned from working from a startup is that those dollars matter. Every single dollar matters. And why shouldn't it matter if you're for working for a big corporation as well? It was the greatest learning I had and the greatest lesson that I I I feel um grateful for having was almost

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having to prove every single dollar that I was spending >> because it's very very easy in a big corporation to shrug the shoulders and go well look I tried but what were your learnings from that will you do it again and how can you pass on those learnings and how can you teach that to others to prove to to show that they won't do it again as well >> do do you find that like talking to startup founders at the moment that they're discouraged by the current climate of what it takes to market

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successfully. >> I think they're probably intimidated and and rightly so. Um, we've we've spoken a little bit about time, but not everyone has all the time in the world to do their research and and to to to invest in the culture as well as to understand all the data points and all the marketing channels at your at your disposal and understanding what the right ones are. um some startups and some founders perhaps don't have the luxury of access to um creative ability or um media companies or or being able

01:40:01

to connect with audiences or having companies connect with audiences for you on your behalf. And that's tough. That's really really tough. Um, but if you have the time to to think about who your audience is and how they connect with brands like yours andor yours, um, you're going to go a long way to making sure that the message is landing at the right time when you've got to put it out there. >> You find that when you're trying to get the right message out there and you're

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trying to count every dollar and you want to make sure it goes as far as possible that people tend to stick to just one platform and get stuck with how they think about marketing. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's too easy, isn't it, to just um have belief in one platform because you know it's worked in the past and then and then that'll do you. um we don't all necessarily have the luxury of trying and failing on loads of different platforms and loads of different channels, but um being

01:40:55

blindsided into working with one particular channel um I personally think means that you're going to you're going to lack that creativity. You're you're obviously working to within the specs that they have on their particular platform. Um you're going to try and shoehorn as much information down that one that one channel on that one platform and I think there therefore lacks the connection with the audience. >> What's been the favorite part of your career that you weren't sure you would love but

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you fell in love with? >> I'm I'm loving working on thought leadership at the moment. So working with um with customers and building case studies that show why we as a business may have helped them grow is probably one of the most satisfying pieces. It's not necessarily traditional um marketing channels necessarily, but you're creating a dialogue with your customers. You're getting to know them as part of the process. You're giving them a platform where you are showcasing who

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they are and you know that you're essentially giving them free advertising, but also connecting it back to what your role was in their business growth. Um, that's a channel that I've been enjoying the most at the moment because if you build a sort of long form article that is all about a customer, cutting it up into sort of bite-size quotes and commentaries to fit into channels like your social media channels means that you're stretching out what this particular asset is for much

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longer. Rather than just put an article out there and and hope for the best, you're finding ways to cut it up and dice it up and put it out um into more channels. And ultimately what you're doing there, you're showcasing your customer and also the connection between you and the customer. >> The entire idea behind this show is I'm a guy who runs an agency who has been obsessed with taking agency and I've I found that everyone has a different take on what agency means to them. Um, what

01:42:46

does taking massive agency mean to you? Where does that energy come from? If I think agency, rightly or wrongly, I think accountability and I think agency in in what it is that I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Um, but being accountable for when it works and also when it doesn't. So, I think if that's my that's my position of agency, that's that's totally fine. But I think accountability is one that um it makes you feel grounded and it makes you feel honest in what you're doing. Um, and I think for

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those that can celebrate the successes, but also share the the the failures or the losses or the sort of headwinds. Um, that's showing true agency for me. >> This has been a pleasure. It's a ton of fun getting to unpack your world of marketing and all of the things you've been able to accomplish over the years. And I we've caught up a few times before and I just appreciate you making the time to be here. Thank you so much.

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