Why Your Network Is Your Most Valuable Business Asset | Taryn Williams

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If you're not constantly out there sort of creating and planting these new seeds and tending to new parts of your garden, you're just going to end up with this like really barren field. And that's when people come in and they're like, "Oh, I need to network." Now, that's the thing is you need to think of it sort of like tending a garden. Like you need to kind of be constantly planting seeds cuz you don't really know which ones are going to grow over time. Karen Williams is recognized as one of

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Australia's most influential business women and the founder of the right fit and wink models. She's built two industry defining companies by mastering the art of networking and building connections. >> I'm so glad whilst I didn't know it at the time that I was investing in my network in my 20ies. I didn't realize that it was building something that was so so important for the latter part of my career. All of us only want to do business with people who do what they say they're

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going to do. All of those little tiny touch points in life, whether it's personally or professionally, are all shaping what we think about a person. I would definitely say you're going to save yourself like years of pain if you surround yourself with the right people. It's about how do you build a long-term sustainable, successful business, businesses, and career. And you're far more likely to do that with the right people in your corner. How would you help prepare the younger you venturing into the network you've

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now created? [Music] This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio. Here at the agency podcast, we're building a community and we would love for you guys to be a part of it. So, we would love to hear from you. What are you enjoying the most? What would you like to see more of? And what do you think might be missing? Drop a comment, make sure you subscribe, and now on with the show. You've said that networking isn't just a safety net, it's a growth engine. What mindset uh do founders need

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to alter to be able to really grasp what networking really is? >> I think the whole word networking has this like really negative connotation on both sides. People either feel like, "Oh god, I can't imagine anything worse than going to a networking event and it's really cringe." And people feel on the receiving end like if they get a networking request or like can I pick your brain for 15 minutes and like can we have a networking catch up they're like oh god this person's going to try

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and sell me something. I think we all inherently have that idea and it completely undermines the beauty of building really deep meaningful networks and relationships which have been like so meaningful and important in my career and both my professional life and my personal life. my friendships have all culminated in personal growth and professional growth. But I think it probably took me a long time to realize that there's a a real art to networking and building these sort of deep really meaningful strategic networks. And it's

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not a case of just going out there being really transactional going in for the kill and the ask on day one. You have to be really mindful about exploring it with curiosity. I think >> now something you said there which was hey I just want to pick your brain for 15 minutes over a coffee. It's my pet peeve. >> It's your pet peeve. You've communicated how like it just feels like they're after something. >> So, what are some of the pet peeves or the things that people should avoid

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doing when trying to approach people to connect or to build a network? >> I think cold outreaches are completely fine. I use LinkedIn all the time for a cold outreach, but go with a specific ask and make it easy for someone to say yes. So, don't say like, I'm not sure what to do with my career. Can you mentor me? Can I have 15 minutes of your time? or can I have a coffee or whatever with >> it's like whoa there's too much responsibility. >> Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I don't

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know you. I've never met you. I don't know what you need. I don't know anything about your space. Go to someone firstly that the um advice that you're seeking from that person is relevant to that person. the number of people who have come to me and they're like I'm a fintech founder or I'm growing a direct to consumer fashion brand and I'm like hey look that I I grow marketplaces like I know a lot about specific very deep niches of industries but hey I'm not your girl for you know building a

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fashion brand or so I think go to someone who's got the relevant domain expertise number one and then make it an easy ask so go to them and say hey I'm building a two-sided marketplace I've got to the point of you know building a payment gateway and I don't know how to build this one particular piece. I've looked at these three suppliers. I can see that these are the differences. Can I have an hour of your time to talk through challenges of building a marketplace, where I'm stuck with the

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payment gateway, and your advice on one other thing? And go with a very, very clear ask. Make it easy for that person to say, "Yes, I know about those things. I can help. I can see they've done their research. They're coming armed with really detailed questions. I want to help this person. I can see that they're serious and they're going to take my advice seriously." So if you have a script like that where you come in and you basically and what I'm hearing here is you say, "Hey, I have a very niche uh

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challenge that's specific to your domain expertise. I've looked at some other uh ways of solving the problem. I'm stuck with one piece of it. Can you help me solve that piece?" What What are you really doing there? Like how does that make it easier for them? It sounds like you're asking a lot even though you're not really. Like can you unpack the psychology >> from the receiving end of of a request like that? >> Yeah. So, it shows me that the person is serious about solving this problem that

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they've gone and done the research. They're not treating me like Google. They're not they're not there's so much public available um information now. So, they can go on and find most of the crux of these problems have been solved by someone else. So, they can go and do their deep reading, go and watch some YouTube v videos, you know, go and like really do that research before they're coming to me. So, it's showing me they're serious. they've done that work first and they're coming to me now

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because they've got to a particular pain point in their problem and they need maybe it's not specifically for example with that payment gateway problem it might not be look I'm trying to choose between Stripe and Brainree and PayPal for example maybe they're going look in my particular use case which is very specifically similar to something you've solved in the past why did you choose to go with this particular provider or would you have any advice on best case implementation or I'm really stuck with

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finding a service provider that could help me with that. Could you connect me with someone? So, showing me that they've gone, you know, they've done the work in the leadup, they've got a very specific challenge, they're serious about solving it, and that they're not just coming with these wishy-washy they're going to waste an hour of my time going trying to build a marketplace or I'm trying to build a tech company and like I don't really know where to start and like how do I raise capital

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like that's not a question. >> It sounds like overwhelming. It's like I don't have the time to unpack all of this >> to completely solve your business problem for you. Yeah. Cuz the presumption is even if they ask you for 15 minutes, you know, it's going to be actually way longer. >> Exactly. It's going to be an hour. And you know, if they're coming to you with like, I'm trying to build a marketplace, where do I start? Like, oh my gosh, there's so many challenges in that.

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Like, what do you mean? Do you mean raising capital? Do you mean building a team? Do you mean solving liquidity? Do you mean solving churn? Like, what is it that you're trying to solve? Come to me with a specific challenge within those things. And I'm more than happy to catch up with founders or, you know, people on multiple occasions. And that was certainly my experience. You know, I met so many mentors on my journey by going to them with a very specific problem and I would always close the loop and I

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would come back and say, "Okay, you asked me to do, you know, go and read this book, read this article, look at this thing and speak to that person. I've done these things. I've got to this point. Now I need help with this thing." >> Why is it so important to go back and close the loop? It's interesting because I I I remember spending time with people that have approached me for coffee or what whatnot and you give them all this advice and then they leave and you're

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like >> you never hear from them again. >> What happened? Like did they did they use it? Did I waste my time? Yes. >> Why is it so important to close? >> Oh my gosh. I think it's the it's the easiest win in networking. Firstly, say thank you afterwards. Send a follow-up note saying I really appre here's the things that I took away from it. Like these five things I'm going to focus on those areas or thank you for this advice. Thank you for that introduction.

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or following up and saying you mentioned that you could do this introduction to so- and so would you mind you know if you could connect us I'd really love to talk to them about x y and z so taking that initiative off the bat to say appre you appreciated their time it's been well spent and then in a few weeks time or depending on how long it's taken you to action those things close the loop with that person and say I executed these things or I got stuck with this or I've you know I've gone down this rabbit

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hole here and I can't quite see what you meant about x y and z could you help me with that and so often people like you've explained it like the number of people I've had coffee meetings with and you never hear from them again and you're like wow wow I wonder how that turned out but the people who take the time to close the loop and say hey look I did these four things you know we managed to close this round or you know here's the website it's live now we've done these four things I'd love your

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feedback on the branding or whatever it might be it just it's um it's really respectful and appreciative of the time that that person has spent with you so >> I would agree with that because there's so many there's so many cases where you know I've invested time in people and There's a weird part of your brain where it's like, well, I feel like a little used in this relationship. >> I don't know what that is. >> And that's where it starts to feel

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transactional, right? You're like, oh, I just gave this time, energy, effort, knowledge, you know, 25 years of business experience. I've condensed it all for you and given it to you on a platter like it feels really yeah transactional and and not nice. And you want I think the ecosystem works and networking and building relationships work if everyone feels like it's mutually beneficial and they're receiving something out of it. And sometimes it's just a case of receiving the benefit of seeing someone else go

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and succeed. Okay? And you know that that can be so rewarding. I mean, I'm sure you've had so many examples of that where you go, "Wow, I'm so proud of that person that I mentored or that you know, I helped early in their journey has gone on to do these incredible things." Like that can be enough. But, you know, it is really really nice to just close the loop. Make sure you keep that person updated and make it feel like their time was well spent. Now, when you're when you're like creating these like uh I

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almost in my mind imagine like you're creating nodes or you're plugging wires into a system or you're creating a spiders web or something like this where great way to think about it. >> Yeah. You're you're trying to expand your network and spiral outward, right? So, in the case where you send snail mail or you send follow-up or you close the loop, >> um what's the big play here? So, if that's if that's the immediate short term, you know, thank you, respect, etc.

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like unpack that for me. Where where does that lead in the future? How can that really allow you to not just like have an interaction but genuinely build a an actual network that's going to help you? >> And I think that's the thing is you need to think of it sort of like tending a garden. Like you need to kind of be constantly planting seeds cuz you don't really know which ones are going to grow over time. You don't know, you know, that person may move overseas and you never see them again. But some may end

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up becoming your biggest client or your biggest investor or the person who introduces you to someone really really important or helps you with your next hire. And so you kind of always need to be like fostering these relationships, tending to them at different points. Some are going to develop into things that require a lot more time, energy, effort, input. They may become someone who joins your board or, you know, plays a much more pivotal role in your life. Some won't. But if you're not constantly

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out there sort of creating and planting these new seeds and tending to new parts of your garden, you're just going to end up with this like really barren field. And that's when people come in and they're like, "Oh, I need to network now. It's time to like go to some networking functions and they think that they can just or go on LinkedIn and call outreach to 50 people." Like it's not how to build a community. It's not how to build a network. >> And like tendering to a garden, you

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can't just force the roses to bloom. >> Exactly. >> So you have to wait till the right season arrives. you might not be in the right place at the right time. So, when people think about networking, do you think people are too forceful? They're too where are the >> where are the short-term mistakes that have a long-term implication? >> I think that's exactly right. And a great example is raising capital. So many people come to me and they're like, I need to raise capital and I need

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introductions and can you introduce me to investors? And I'm like, the time to start meeting investors is like 12 months before you want to raise capital. You want to start having these coffee meetings when there's no ask. When you're purely there to get to know that person, curious, find out about their fund. What do they invest in? What's their mandate? What sort of companies do they look for? What size? Are they even a good fit for you? Do you like them? Could you work with them as people? And

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then, you know, keep in touch. Maybe send them some updates as to how your company is performing, you know, what's on your road map, some wins, all of those things. when it's time to raise capital, those leads should be so warm because you've built this network and you should know also these people were great and they were really supportive during our journey. They would make great investors. I'd love to work with them. Not just like, oh my gosh, I've got a cold slate of people I've never

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met that I that have no idea about my business and I'm going to go in there cold and be like, "Hi, can I have a million dollars to build my startup?" Like, it's just, you know, and it seems so obvious after the fact when when someone explains it to you like that, you're like, "Oh, yeah." like that's never how I would, you know, get married, right? Like it's you wouldn't just go to somebody be like, "Hi, I've never met you before. Do you want to get

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married?" And that's sort of like effectively what raising capital is. Like you're getting into business with someone for a really long period of time and you can't divorce that person. Like they are on your cap table. So I think it's about really thinking through going in with a cold ask is never going to be the best way to build a relationship with someone. if you can have soft touch points in advance and as I said you you may not know in advance what those are going to be but if you approach people

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with curiosity and I just think it's so easy to meet people and approach them with curiosity and go you know what I'd love to know your story or what are you working on or what are you interested in and and out of those interactions you will almost always find some sort of common element with someone where you're like wow that's fascinating like I didn't know that you had traveled to Bolivia or that you whatever whatever it might be and you're like, "Wow, there's

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these little common touch points that you can find with almost anyone to start building a relationship on." And so it might be in a month's time you read a fantastic book about, you know, a character in Bolivia. And I I'm a constant sender of books to people as well. It sounds like I just love like analog snail mail, but I'll frequently finish reading a book and go, "Oh my god, this reminds me so much of that person that I met at that I was sitting next to at a conference or whatever,

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LinkedIn them and said, "Hey, what's your postal address? I'm going to send you a book and just go, you know, it's such a low touch point. It just made me think of them. And you can guarantee that that person is going to go, wow, that was a really thoughtful act. And who knows, in 5 years time, I you know, may reconnect with that person or, you know, they may be sharing my name in a room that is really helpful and advantageous for me in future. >> I I just love the details and how much

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effort you put into the little things that stack up over time. Some things you said there, I just would like to maybe add some definitions to for the listeners. So you said um the cold ask, the soft touch and the touch points. Um can you just quickly define like the cold ask, the soft touch and the touch points? Like what are these things? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So cold ask is just going into someone straight up, you know, could be in a LinkedIn message, it could be on DMs on Instagram or on email and just asking

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very very you know uh literally out of the cold coming in and saying, "Hi, you know, I'd love an introduction to so- and so in your network. Could you make that introduction?" So um without any sort of prior uh connection with this person or relationship with this person and usually those fall flat um unless there's some sort of big upside in it for the person who's making the introduction or making the effort or imparting the wisdom it's very unlikely that you're going to get a good response

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from those things. Um, a soft touch is just some sort of little touch point that you might have with that person over the could be I I think a really popular one is like sh congratulating and sharing someone's wins publicly. So, >> oh, okay. Like resharing. >> Yeah. It might just be like, "Wow, you just saw that I don't know someone hit, you know, a milestone number of followers or they just their company won a big award." And it's so simple to either reshare that and say,

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"Congratulations." Or send them a quick DM, post it on your LinkedIn saying, "Wow, congratulations. great big milestone. Send them a quick email. Hey, I saw that great article in the AFR. Congratulations. I can't imagine that would have been an easy journey. Like, congrats to you and the team. >> It's quite endearing to be like, I'm paying attention. You're valuable. I I noticed you. >> Yeah. And again, it just hopefully comes from an inherent place of curiosity and

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kindness and wanting to see others succeed because I think the whole ecosystem works if you kind of if everyone works from that premise. So, I think I didn't realize these things until I look back on them later. It was just inherently how I was wired. And so I was always like, "Hey, I'm so happy to see you succeeding." And hey, like, "Oh my god, I know this person I could connect you to that could really help you in your journey." So >> if we define a touch point in

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networking, what's that? >> So I actually keep a personal CRM, which people think is a little bit crazy. And I would love to tell you it's in some sort of like sophisticated, you know, a HubSpot or a notion or whatever. It's not. It's like an Excel spreadsheet. So not going to lie to you. But >> So I'm on your spreadsheet. >> You are on my spreadsheet. So essentially I just got to this point where a lot of it was just running around in my head and I'd be like oh my

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god must touch base with Dane about blah blah blah or we were just talking about this before I was like oh my god I must introduce this person to you about the podcast. So so much of it just runs in my head and I was like this is not scalable. I need to get something down on paper where I'm just keeping touch of all of those touch points. A lot of the personal information that I might forget about someone like I don't know do they have kids? What are they interested in? Um, yeah, any particular things that

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would come in useful down the track if I, you know, I might read an article that's really relevant to them and I'll say, "Hey, like, you know, I know that you love the Sydney Swans or whatever and I don't know if you saw this really interesting use of AI in their business or something." So, little touch points like that. So, keeping a a database or some structure, some way that you can keep a track of like the the touch points that you've had with that person and then try and track them over time.

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Obviously, it's so much easier if you use like a HubSpot or whatever and you can just track and see like when did you last email them? When did you last call them? You can put in little notes, when did you last see them, when did you catch up? Like all of those things. I think it helps you create a more cohesive view of the person and it just really helps deepen those relationships over time because I think it takes it out of your head into some sort of structured database and it helps make

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sure that those um touch points that you have with someone are adding value to that person as opposed to I mean I'm sure you all receive them but like when someone just sends like a blanket like hey read this article thought of you and it's just like a generic article to something not related to you at all and you're like that's actually worse than not sending anything at all. So, make it targeted, make it meaningful. >> It feels more romantic that you have it in a spreadsheet and not a CRM cuz a CRM

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feels a bit more like, well, okay, this is official. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I got you on a database. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's >> I have a sequence ready to send them. Yes. >> Okay. So, if I were to look at your Excel right now, like if someone were to create one of these for themselves, it's kind of like a creating your own little virtual blackbook, right? Uh what tabs would you have? And then what do you like to track in these uh spreadsheets? Yeah. So I have people broken down into

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people that I need to catch up with. I used to do weekly and I don't have weekly anymore but fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, bianually or yearly. >> Right. So you have different um >> cadences almost. So I have people in my life that I go okay this person a particular investor maybe or um mentor that isn't that close but is someone important to me that I derive a lot of value or satisfaction from who I find really interesting and that I learn a lot from. I might say okay I'm going to

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have a touch point with that person once a quarter and I'm going to see them at least once a year and I'll make sure that I reach out to them whether it's for a coffee catch up, a dinner, a lunch, a walk. I'm a big fan of orcs. Like easy things that are I always say to people, ask for a Friday morning catch up. Almost everyone's free on a Friday morning. Like it's the end of the week, you know, if you try and make it a time that's really easy for people to say yes to. And I always offer like

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multiple different options. So a lot of people these days don't drink, for example. So I'm always like, do you want to have a coffee? Do you want to have a walking date? Like let's get some exercise in. Let's get our step count in while we catch up. So just giving people different options to make it easy to say, yeah, yeah, like great. I'll I'll come to you. I'll come to your side of the bridge. We'll go for a walk. >> Clients want it all. A slick looking website that can run their business and

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need to break a sweat when clients grow fast. A dynamic CMS with global design settings and reusable assets lets you turn one page into hundreds. Design smoother and deliver sooner. Go to wixstudio.com. >> What's the danger of an entrepreneur or a founder being in a network where it does become an echo chamber of people that look and see things in the world the same way? >> Yeah. >> Why is it so important that we create friction? Why is it so important we create disparagement actively in our

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networks? So I think what you can be guilty of is just building a product that is purely designed for you and your echo chamber of network and a business that is designed for that echo chamber which is not reflective of society as a whole. And I think we can all be so guilty of this falling into the traps of you know reading the same media. I really try and have done trying to read and see both sides of the aisle and trying to challenge myself to go okay whilst I might think my particular views

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on something are correct let me hear about the other side. And I think it's so important in business and you know in every aspect of life to go okay who outside of my you know echo chamber okay they clearly have a very strongly held belief on whatever it might be how to do SEO or you know how to build a great tech product or how to raise capital or whatever it might be. I need to understand these different points of view so that I can build the best business and have the best chance of success that I possibly can by

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understanding these different ways of doing things and these different beliefs. I almost find that when I am spending time with people that there is friction against their value system or their moral compass or how they solve problems versus mine. It almost elevates your own thinking. Like it always feels like an additive, not a subtractor. It feels like, oh, okay, like I've never thought about that problem that way. Let me rethink how I think about how I do things and see if I can improve it.

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>> And it challenges you to, I think, justify and think about your own beliefs. the number of times I've come home from, you know, conversations and, you know, you you're lying there at night thinking, you know what, like hm, why is it that I hold this belief, you know, so strongly to be true or, you know, why did that conversation with that person trigger me in this particular way? Like what was it? Is it bringing up an insecurity in me? Is it bringing up like what is it? So I think

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having that chance to ruminate and think about those conversations that you've had later I think is probably one of the most beneficial parts of building a really robust network. >> Yeah. You find this with younger people in particular that they tend to avoid contrarians. They tend to avoid those that challenge them actively. When you reach a certain level of maturity as an entrepreneur, it does seem to be the case that people realize actually I do need people to call me out on my What's the benefit of that? And how do

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you make sure you don't have people um taking advantage of that? Because, you know, I tend to have an open mind and I've been burnt a few times by trying to have voices of counsel and it's gone too far. Like where's the sweet spot to have a contrarian voice as a mentor? >> Yeah. So, I think I've had two mentors in my life who were very contrarian and inc like absolutely shaped me as a person and I couldn't be more grateful for that. But I think the big thing for me was really making sure that they

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always have my best interests at heart. And I think it all it is is just taking stock and going does this person have a vested interest in you know shaping this business for anything other than or you know my personal professional journey for anything other than my success and wanting what's best for me. Yes or no? Um, and so I think if you can answer that in a way that is like, no, this person genuinely wants what's best for me and they're really only trying to help me see a particular challenge or,

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you know, challenge me on something that I'm missing, whatever it might be. If you can answer that and say like, no, hand on heart, they do genuinely want what's best for me, then I think it's worth taking that advice. You're not always necessarily going to follow word for word that what they instruct you to do. And so certainly in my example, you know, I'd had to bang my head against a wall a couple of times before I was like, oh, okay, maybe this person might have a point. You know, I was like, no,

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doggedly determined like, no, this is the right way to do something. And so sometimes, you know, it's a case of trial and error. But I think, yeah, trying to make sure that their their incentives are aligned um and that you you genuinely believe that they have a good moral compass and good values. Um and in which case I think it's yeah it's important to still listen to that council even though it can sometimes feel sticky and uncomfortable and sometimes yeah might take you time to to

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really take it on board. >> Now with uh you said there like investor types or what have you like if you're in a relationship with someone and you've built a network with them. How does adding um dollars to the relationship change the intimacy of the relationship? Yeah, it's certainly a different dynamic and all of a sudden this person becomes a investor or they become a business partner, you know, really obviously definitely changes the dynamic. Um, and I think you need to have one of the

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things that I really struggled with my early career was having difficult conversations and having to sit down with people and say like, okay, this fundamentally kind of resets our relationship and how are we going to approach that because I still want to be able to have these kind of conversations with you about whatever it might be. They might be giving you advice on your personal life or you know personal growth whatever it might be but yet we're we're going to have a very different relationship now around these

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kind of things. >> So you're creating like a landmark in the relationship like hey up till now we've been friends now we're going into business together. >> We need to reset the expectations. >> Yeah. >> And and what's the benefit of doing that? What are you really trying to to establish? >> I think some healthy boundaries and also removing the awkwardness for both of you because you're both thinking about it. you're both probably going home and

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talking to your partners about it or your friend other friends about it saying like you know what if this goes south like what if this doesn't work out um you know how are we going to reset I don't want to lose them as a friend or as you know a valuable part of my network and so I think just calling it out and addressing it up front really relieves the awkwardness for both of you and I think it gives you some frameworks of you know with a ex- business partner of mine we sat down and went okay like

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building a startup together is going to be really really hard and there's like a strong likelihood that this relationship is going to go south. We both know that like it's it's the case of you know if you're in each other's pockets 24/7 building a high growth product you know there's a strong likelihood most co-founder relationships fail. So what could we do in advance to make sure that we try and preempt that happening and what could we do if we get to that point? Who do we both love and trust and

00:27:43 - 00:28:29

admire that we could bring in to moderate between us if things go get to a point where we're like I don't want to talk to you. I totally disagree with that decision. Who could we bring in? And it was >> I love that, by the way, because it's almost like establishing, hey, worst case scenario, we got a plan. >> Yeah. Yeah. And we just kept these small touch points in our lives where we were like, okay, we know that we both really enjoy going for long walks. It's we're

00:28:06 - 00:28:49

not, you know, stuck in the office, you know, at our laptops fighting over work things. We're going to come up for air. We're going to go out and walk in the sunshine. We're going to take a breather. We're going to catch up, talk about life. We're still going to talk about the business obviously, but you know, we're going to have these, you know, points that we made sure we kept in our diaries to make sure that that relationship stayed healthy. And then, yeah, we had definitely had times where

00:28:28 - 00:29:11

we had to call on those people to moderate and go, hey, we agreed in advance that we both really admired you. It's not at the point where we're going, well, I don't want that person to come in because that person's going to side with so and so. You know, it was really a pre-agreed thing that we're like, okay, we admire these people. we respect their opinions and we think that they're going to do what's right for the business and not for either one of our personal vendettas.

00:28:49 - 00:29:43

>> Someone someone I knew was explaining that uh them and their wife were having arguments and when they asked their spouse, hey, like when we have an argument, who do you go talk to? They're like, "Oh, these people." And then they realize, "Well, hey, those people side with you." And they're kind of anti-me. >> So, I like what you're saying there about how like >> again, it's that echo chamber thing, right? Like, where are they going? Yeah.

00:29:15 - 00:30:11

>> It's like, "Okay, >> when you're thinking about like this this dynamic in a in a business, I can see the power of that >> having a a voice of counsel that has a equal vested interest in it working out versus creating camps or sides." Yes. There's no point in having a network that you go to who just like reinforce your belief. Like, yeah, you're amazing and you're right and you're always right and you're amazing and like go you. Like, yes, of course you want someone

00:29:49 - 00:30:36

who like believes in you and like doesn't think you're nuts or crazy or a terrible person, otherwise hopefully they wouldn't be in your network. But you do want people who go like, "Hey, okay, what's the underlying issue here?" And like, "How can we solve this? And have you thought about this? And you know, I've seen you go through this pattern before. or like do you think it could be these kind of drivers or you know you want someone who's really there to help you grow and develop as a person

00:30:12 - 00:31:03

um both professionally and personally like I think that that's really important. >> Why is it so dangerous to have a professional career while being surrounded by cheerleaders that just agree with everything you say? >> Yeah. And I think this is why like there's a there has to be a sort of certain dynamic between you and your staff too because you can't overshare all of this information with them as well. like you don't want to put them in a situation where they're um like I

00:30:38 - 00:31:21

remember after I'd raised capital for the right fit. You know, we had a finite runway. We had like 18 months to prove out this business. And as you go the months tick down and you're like, "Oh my god, I've only got nine months of runway left in the bank." And you know, that means at the end of that, no one's got a job, right? Like I don't have any money left to pay them. And so you got this delicate dynamic of like I want people who to surround myself with cheerleaders

00:30:59 - 00:31:54

who believe in the idea and believe in the business and are going to hustle really hard and get things done every day. But I also need voices around me who are wise experts who have walked this path before who ideally are further along their commercial journey than me so they can spot some of those things that I'm not going to see you know whether it's in particular metrics or whether it's in the growth stage of the company that they can go hey like watch out for this or be mindful of that. And

00:31:27 - 00:32:24

so I I think you need to be careful that, you know, you don't necessarily want dissent in the ranks in your team, but you do need like a culture of healthy ability to to have some naysayers or um have I always say it's like it's not a democracy, but it's not a total dictatorship. Like there needs to be something in between where like people can have a voice and there's a meritocracy of like great ideas getting through. Um, I think that should come both internally in your company and

00:31:55 - 00:33:02

externally from your network. >> Something you want to do here is kind of talk about the the ask >> and the art of the ask. And uh I guess to open this segment up here, how do you define and identify an askshole? >> Oh, okay. Um, I think someone who has put no thought into the ask, I think is probably the biggest warning sign for me. like if they're coming to me with an ask about um an industry that I have no knowledge in or something that's completely outside of my wheelhouse um

00:32:29 - 00:33:23

and it feels like they've just fired off that same request to like 20 people like that >> you just feel like a number. >> Yeah. And I think it's just it shows to me you've given no consideration to my time to my skill set to the years of you know learning and and growth and development that I've done. Like I just think that's a a really sure shorefire way to get me offside. >> Okay. Now, in the event where you're in a cold relationship, you've not been in

00:32:56 - 00:33:48

touch for a long time, you've not had soft touches, uh, and you're like, man, I got to get back in touch with this person, is there a way to restart a cold relationship when you need them without appearing opportunistic? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think hopefully there's always a reason to get back in touch. um whether it is as I said maybe celebrating someone's success like maybe they've done something interesting maybe they've had a birth of a new child maybe there's something in

00:33:21 - 00:34:14

the press maybe there's some reason that you know you can get back in touch with that person and I think in times where you've had a long established relationship and you do have a very clear ask like hey I know we haven't been in touch for a while but you know I remember you had this amazing whatever it might be copywriter or someone and I was thinking about you the other say, you know, really hope you're well. You know, I saw you've had another child. I was hoping it would be okay if you would

00:33:48 - 00:34:30

be able to remind me that person's name. >> So, it sounds like you're trying to be personable. You're trying to be a little thrifty. Uh, and I guess every situation would call for a different angle. >> Yeah. And I think just being mindful of the person's time, making it as easy. Don't say like, "Would would you have time for a coffee?" If all you need is an introduction to their copyriter, for example, like being mindful of their time, being respectful, being very clear

00:34:09 - 00:34:56

in what you need. And if it is a more in-depth conversation, then maybe highlighting that in advance as to the reason why, like, I'm about to make this senior hire. I can see they used to work for you. I'm hoping you've got 15 minutes for us to have a coffee catch up about or a call about that particular person. >> Now, how do you know when it's the right time to ask? Like, how do you make sure you time it so that you're not like prematurely asking where they're like,

00:34:33 - 00:35:14

"That's too much. I'm not even going to reply to you." Like how do you how do you judge or gauge whether it's a good or a poor time? >> I mean try and avoid things like straight after a public holiday when everyone's like, "Oh my god, drowning in emails and like straight after they've come back from vacation or while they're on vacation, straight after Christmas break when everyone's still checked out, you know?" So >> or if they have kids and they're going

00:34:54 - 00:35:38

into the weekend. >> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So trying to be mindful and just like cautious of what what does this person have on in their life outside of me? if they've just raised a massive round of capital and they're like super stressed and now have to go or if they're raising capital and you know that and they're super stressed like trying to avoid or if they've just had a massive PR disaster and something blow up in the press and you know that they're going to be really stressed

00:35:15 - 00:36:10

about that trying to avoid those times when you just know it would be like I'm adding another thing to this person's plate who's already probably at breaking point and they probably don't need that. Um so trying to just think about them as human and and how can I do this in the in a way that is not going to make them feel um overwhelmed, pressured or um likely to say no to me for this ask. So I think just being conscious of those things. Um and then I think I'd always say don't ask things on Mondays like

00:35:43 - 00:36:35

Monday mornings like everyone's busy. Everyone's everyone's got to get through their daily life. Um, I generally find later in the week, like I always used to say to people like ask people for an 8 a.m. coffee on a Friday morning and tell them that you'll come to wherever is near their office. Like I think making it as easy as possible for them to say yes at a time in a place that says it is easy for them is definitely the easiest way to to get in someone's diary. >> Is there a way to resurrect a

00:36:09 - 00:37:18

relationship when you've deeply offended someone, albeit uh strategically or uh situationally? Yes, I definitely think there is. I think it's hard. So, I think you need to absolutely own your mistake. You need to truly truly apologize and really show that you are serious about that apology that is you're not saying it for apologies sake. Um, and you need to actually, I think, be able to show to that person what it is that you um how you understand what it is you did wrong. So, not just saying, "I'm really sorry

00:36:44 - 00:37:31

that that offended you," or, you know, "I'm really sorry that I sent you that email that was not meant for you," for example,, but actually saying like, "You know what? I'm really sorry I sent that email that I meant for someone else and I sent it to you and it said something not very nice about you in it. You know, I've been meaning to address it with you and I felt really uncomfortable. Um, you know, I know I said that I whatever it is. um you know, I was having a really

00:37:07 - 00:37:51

bad day and I shouldn't have said those things and I understand if you really don't want to speak to me again or you don't want me in your life, but I really actually do value our friendship and I said it in the heat of the moment. I'm really embarrassed. I'd really love the opportunity to, you know, rebuild this relationship with you. Is there a way that I could go about doing that with you and what would make you feel comfortable? >> So, really relishing the sting of the

00:37:30 - 00:38:27

pain that you created. >> Yeah. and and and then adding context as to how that might have impeded on their life or rippled out into other problems for them. >> Yeah. Impacted them. Yeah. >> Some would say that that's, you know, a sign of weakness or a sign of neediness. Um, what would you say to those people? I think it's a sign of humility and I think that you really recognize that what you did had a great, you know, it could be something like missing a really important meeting that someone had

00:37:58 - 00:38:47

organized for you or whatever it might be. Really shows that you deeply understand that you've put that person out. You've maybe damaged their relationship with someone else. like if they've done an introduction for you and then you've dropped the ball on that thing or you know whatever it might be really shows that you value their relationship, you value that person and that you understand what you've done has had a negative impact on their life or their relationship with that person as

00:38:22 - 00:39:10

well. And so I think taking that really really seriously and showing I recognize and I'm humble enough to come to you and apologize and and not just sweeping it under the rug or pretending it didn't happen or just ghosting them and never speaking to them again. Like none of those things are going to improve your standing and you can guarantee that they're going to tell at least one other person. So think about your reputation more broadly and that you you really want to protect that.

00:38:47 - 00:39:42

>> Okay. Now, as someone who's scaled a massive network, I imagine people ask you for favors all the time. How can you say no to someone without damaging the relationship? >> That is a great question. I went through a big phase of people asking me like to speak at events or come to functions and I just felt so guilty and I would always say yes because I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know. This person's asked and I feel bad and so I should go." And I actually had to get someone to write me

00:39:14 - 00:40:01

a no template because I was so uncomfortable in saying no. I was like, "Oh my gosh, it makes me seem like I'm conceited and that I'm like too important and that like I don't have time for them when that's not the case." So, yeah, I had to get someone to write me a note template that was like, whilst I would really love to, the reality is I'm in the middle of building my own three companies and my time is really limited and can I help you in some other way? Like if this especially if it's

00:39:38 - 00:40:16

people asking for like a coffee meeting, I'm like, is this something you could ping me a question on an email and I can flick it back at another time, you know, so I can do it in my own whatever. >> Can I help you in some other way? Yeah, in some >> that's powerful because that's I'm gonna steal that. >> It's really Yeah, it's a good one. Especially because a lot of people are like, "Can I have a coffee meeting or do you have time for lunch in the next

00:39:58 - 00:40:40

couple of weeks?" And you're like, "Realistically, I don't have time for lunch in the next, you know, 6 months." And nothing to, you know, no offense to this person, but like if you say that, you oh my god, I seem horrendous. Um, but being able to say like, "Hey, like what was it specifically that you needed to hand with?" And a lot of the time it's just like, "I really wanted to learn more about that Harvard AI course you did. and I'm great. You know,

00:40:19 - 00:41:11

>> here it is. >> Here it is. You know, here's a quick voice note that I can answer all of your questions in. So, >> um yeah, I think asking for those things, I think, >> um most people when they come to me with an ask, especially for an introduction or something like that are pretty conscious that I'm protective of my network in that I think it's really important that the connections. There's nothing worse than an over introducer and I think I want people to know that if I'm

00:40:45 - 00:41:27

introducing them to someone, it's someone that's going to be mutually beneficial for both of those people. >> Um, so I'm very cautious of making sure, you know, if someone just called reaches out and says, "Hey, like can I can you connect me to Dane?" I'll be like, >> I'll either ask first or I'll be like, "Hey, you know what? Like he's got a lot on his plate right now." if I know it's not going to be a mutually beneficial introduction because I think it's really

00:41:06 - 00:41:57

important that when people see my name in their inbox or you know a phone call coming through that they're like this is important I want to take it it's going to add value to my life >> and then when you think about someone who's getting started let's say we go back to square one and you lose your network you lose all your contacts which sounds horrendous and you were back at square one and for the listener who's like okay I want to build a network like you've built one day um how do they

00:41:31 - 00:42:17

start to connect with people far above their current level >> without coming across like a cloud chaser. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I think definitely attend events because so often at those events that everyone's in the same room together, you've got as much opportunity to speak to that person as the next person. So, >> you're all on an even kill. >> Exactly. Exactly. And I think going armed with something interesting to impart to that person, whether it is something interesting that you've just

00:41:54 - 00:42:43

read, whether it's something topical that you might think. when I was building the right fit, which you know had a large element of social media in the business, a lot of the investors and people far more senior than me that I was meeting with didn't really know a great deal about Tik Tok, about social media, about algorithms, and so they found it fascinating to learn more about that space. So, >> Oh, right. So, you can show up with something you're really great at. >> Yeah.

00:42:19 - 00:43:09

>> And they might be >> Yeah. that I could sort of add value to their world by saying like well this is how it might work in your sector or hey actually here's how your competitors are using Tik Tok shop to grow their brand or like actually there's an amazing article that just came out I'll send it to you about x y and z thing that was in my wheelhouse and it just I always say don't show up empty-handed and it doesn't have to be obviously physically bringing a gift or something but don't

00:42:43 - 00:43:30

show up without some sort of information some sort of some relevant thing to impart to that person it could be a contact Like if you know that that person, I don't know, is really into whatever it might be, you could be like, "Hey, a friend of mine has this, you know, XYZ. I'd love to connect you and they'd be like, "Oh, wow. How great. You know, I'm really into polaro." Whatever it might be, you know, some sort of information or contact or relationship that you can share with them that is

00:43:07 - 00:43:54

going to add value to their life. >> One of my good friends who would network professionally for a long time, he had what he called stacking bullse eyes. >> Oh, I love this. >> So, so he would do as much research as he could about the guests in the room. And similar to what you're talking about, he's like, "Okay, cool." Like he knew enough of the people in the room to approach them and say, "Hey, like uh like I've seen this that you've done this thing or what have you." And he was

00:43:30 - 00:44:18

liking it to like pulling a an arrow out of a quiver. >> Love this. >> And then shooting it into the conversation and hitting a bullseye, which means they go from like, "Oh yeah, nice to meet you." to, "Yeah, me too." Like, how do you go from >> I love that >> surface level conversation >> to getting cut through >> to cut through. So like what are some things people should be mindful of to not stick at surface level and to get into an emotional conversation with

00:43:55 - 00:44:43

something that the person in front of you is interested in? >> Yes. So I definitely think if you can find some sort of shared interest areas and that's so easy to do now with social media like it's really >> go into the room with a shared interest ready ready to talk >> so easy to find out so much about people from their public profiles like really easy win. Secondly, some sort of if you if you need something to fall back on, come armed with some sort of interesting, snackable, insightful piece

00:44:19 - 00:44:59

of information to share. Whether it's, you know, a really interesting stat, an amazing podcast that you've just listened to that you've got these two or three great quotes from that you can share that people are like, gosh, that's really interesting. And like all of a sudden, this person has just gone up in my esteem of them. >> Almost like prepping for a keynote. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Prepping for a job interview, you know, like you'd research the company beforehand. you'd

00:44:39 - 00:45:23

ideally go and read their annual reports and, you know, come with some examples of times that you've, you know, solved a similar problem in your past career. So, >> I'm going to go in there, I'm going to be interesting as hell. I'm going to do my research. >> Yep. And I'm going to be super curious and I'm going to ask them like I just read this really interesting thing like how is your company tackling that? Or like, have you guys started implementing AI? or like gosh, did you see? You know,

00:45:01 - 00:46:01

I just think trying to build a natural flowing conversation that where you're thinking strategically about ways to show the best side of yourself and and your um I think domain expertise or how you could add value or, you know, potentially why they should include you in their network. Um but also genuinely being curious and, you know, exploring the conversation with them and and getting to know them as a person. So, so what's your advice for those people that are like, "Oh, but I'm an introvert and

00:45:31 - 00:46:17

like I can't do it and it's not natural for me." Like, you know, is is this an inherent natural skill or is this something that any introvert um any, you know, quiet person can learn how to do? >> So, it always surprises people that I'm an introvert and they're like, "No, you're definitely an extrovert." And I'm like, "Nope, definitely an introvert. >> I would definitely take you for an extrovert. That's surprising." >> It's interesting, isn't it? I've just

00:45:54 - 00:46:46

lived in the world as an extrovert for such a long period of time that I probably display now as an extrovert. But for example, on a Friday night, all I want to do is go home quietly to my apartment. The last thing I want to do like having plans on the weekend is like my idea of like stress and hell. So, um, but I had to learn how to show it was a big part of my career, especially when I was modeling and then obviously building my agency. I had to get comfortable in going out, cold networking, meeting

00:46:20 - 00:47:17

people, overcoming that. And it I still find it incredibly depleting like you know coming off stage after a big event or going to a networking event where you're meeting hundreds of people at once and I'll come home and I'll be like I need to recharge. But absolutely it's something that can be learned and I think you know you practice makes perfect. The more you do it the more you build your trust that you can do it and that you see I guess the the benefits of that and the um those relationships

00:46:48 - 00:47:43

coming to bloom and fruition over time. I still prefer one-on ones. Like I still much prefer to catch up with someone in an intimate context where I can have, you know, a a conversation that's easier for me than at a, you know, in a mass event. Um, but yeah, so I don't think um I don't think people should feel like, gosh, everyone else is really great at networking and they nail it and they thrive off it and they love working into a room of strangers and I'm the only one that doesn't. I think most people find

00:47:16 - 00:48:09

it a little bit intimidating and don't love the first day of uni or first day of a new job or going to a networking event. We're all like not psyched about it. But the um benefit, you know, the compounding interest to your career of building a network is so worth it that you just need to overcome those fears to do it. Now with the different dynamics between different um types of people, do you find that there's a different approach between uh men approaching women, women approaching men, women

00:47:43 - 00:48:44

approaching women? Like does does the rules of engagement change? >> Yeah. And I think unfortunately in this day, I think people do need to be more mindful of it. Um I think I think back to my early career and you I'm getting on now. Um but you know it was frequent that you would go out for drinks with a client or you know even you know your whole company team would go out and get really drunk and and that there wasn't sort of a natural gender breakdown between having to be conscious of okay

00:48:13 - 00:49:11

um is there a different power dynamic between men and women or are the females in this um interaction comfortable with the males in this interaction um and vice versa but predominantly it's that way. Um, and so yes, I do think it's a little bit of a different dynamic now. So I think as a man at a networking event or meeting women for the first time, I think some of the I what I love when people do is immediately sort of disarm the conversation by talking about their wife or their children. So you

00:48:42 - 00:49:24

absolutely know, okay, you know, safe boundaries here. Not and if you're single, it doesn't mean you don't get to go to networking. >> I throw out the kids the wife card just quick. >> Exactly. Get it out there. >> I'm not a creep. I'm not I'm not saying just because you're single you're a creep, but you know making sure that it's super clear out there that like yeah I'm I'm not you know approaching you in that way. I'm not you know

00:49:03 - 00:49:46

>> and um and so I think making the other party in both senses feel comfortable and that you know making it very very clear that that's not what the approach is about can be really beneficial. Um >> especially when someone's like a really known figure cuz they probably get hit on or what have you. It's just trying to I just find it interesting how the dynamics shift depending. So like having some sensitive proclivity to like, okay, cool. Let's just be mindful of these

00:49:25 - 00:50:15

things going into it. >> And I also think I still see it happen so often that women peel off into a group of women and men peel off into a group of men. And I'm like, no, this is like, you know, as I sort of said earlier about building people, building a network of people who don't look like you. You know, you want to have a mix of genders, a mix of ages. Like I always try to go to an event and go, "God, that person's like, you know, 20 years younger than me. fantastic. Like I'm

00:49:49 - 00:50:34

going to get to understand the way that generation thinks or what they're working on or how they approach work life balance so differently to me or like the person who's, you know, at the further further end of their career and about to retire. Wow. Like I'm going to get such a different lens in the world. And I think, you know, crossing across genders is so important, too. >> Yeah. No, I like that. And something I did at an event recently, I went in with the mindset of like, I'm going to ask as

00:50:12 - 00:50:57

many questions as possible, and they can't be generic questions. Yeah. So, I was asking really rogue questions in um these different groups I was hanging out with. And the groups I was like approaching, they were kind of having like menial business conversations. And you know those situations where you can tell people aren't fully engaged. Yes. >> They're kind of like nodding like we're pretending to network and they're like, "How do I do someone to save them?"

00:50:35 - 00:51:19

>> Yeah. How do I get out of this situation? I got to go to the bathroom. Um so I was approaching these groups and just saying, "Hey, what's up? Like we don't know each other. What do you guys do?" And then I would just throw out a rogue conversation. I love this question. One of my questions was like, >> you know, if you were in a situation where you had to pick between building a new business and it was e-commerce or retail, what would you pick? >> Love this.

00:50:57 - 00:51:36

>> And then people like, ooh. And then it would start like a fun conversation. So So >> that's a great idea. Little ice breakers. >> Yeah. With little ice breakers. And I was having the time of my life and I was just asking questions and everyone would then look at me like, "What's the next one?" >> Yeah. Who's this interesting dude? I love that. It's a reason. It's a reason to be memorable to people as well, right? Like it's it's those ways to cut

00:51:16 - 00:51:58

through. Like you want to have I mean some people do it with the way they dress or they start, you know, they might have crazy glasses or something and they're like, "Oh, that was that guy with the quirky glasses." >> I'm the crazy question guy. >> You could be the crazy question guy. But anything to make you more memorable and to get cut through and Yeah. And it makes people comfortable immediately. >> Yo, my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding. I

00:51:37 - 00:52:36

had to figure out a way to do branding every single day. And so I branded myself. >> Then I started my agency, Rival. >> And hired a team of branding mavericks hellbent on creating brands so good that they'll make your competition their pants. So here's the thing. You want your brand to go viral and Rival makes brands go viral. That's why we're offering you a free 30inut branding session to get an expert's opinion. If you don't believe me, the proof is in the pudding. Here's what clients have to

00:52:16 - 00:53:27

say about Rival. Rival is trusted by brands like Nutrition Warehouse, Flight My Bricks, and Voom. So, if you want to absolutely smush the competition and make your brand go viral, hit the link below and book in your free 30-inute branding session. What's more valuable? Knowing someone with influence or being the person that everyone wants to know? >> Oh, am I allowed to say I think both are really powerful but in very different ways. >> Go ahead, take me down the rabbit hole. >> So, I think having access to someone um

00:52:52 - 00:53:51

through your network who is very powerful obviously by de facto um instills in you some power. you have access to that person, they are a part of part of your network. People want an introduction or they want to um you know you've got some leverage in that dynamic of being able to put the right business ideas in front of them or whatever it might be. So I think that is powerful in one particular way. Being the person that everyone wants to be introduced to is obviously a very different type of

00:53:21 - 00:54:17

power. Um I think comes with a whole bunch of different responsibilities. I mean both have a lot of responsibility but in different ways. um comes with a lot of responsibility um in how and where you spend your time and what you apply your energy to. Um so I think both very powerful but in very very different ways. >> So when you're in touch with someone who's let's say a known figure, a famous person uh and they're trying to use you to get to that person like how should you handle that respectfully? I think

00:53:49 - 00:54:43

really vetting what the request is for. Um, and then being able to genuinely hand on heart say to yourself like is this something that is going to be of value to that person and how do I present it to them at the right time in the right way that is respectful of their time. So I think if you genuinely believe like wow, you know, in your case maybe Steven Bartlett like desperately needs to see this idea. It's awesome. It's amazing. I'm willing to use one of my social currency credits to to put

00:54:16 - 00:55:13

this idea in front of him. So you have to I think really believe in the founders or the founding team or the business. Um really believe in the idea and the match with that particular person and then presenting it in a way that's respectful of their time. So whether that's like I love it when people do a succinct email with the bullet points of like here's the f you know topline revenue you know key talking points x y and z deck attached introduction made. Um, obviously going a step further, asking him first if you

00:54:44 - 00:55:38

know, if you can, um, is great, but if not, I think just making sure that you think it's really going to add value and be received well. And if not, don't do it. It's not worth the the social capital. >> Don't be an introduce hole. >> Exactly. >> What's the biggest price you've ever paid with money, time, or reputation to get in the right room, and was it worth it? >> Wow. Um, great question. I think early in my career I probably didn't think a

00:55:11 - 00:56:16

lot about it um as like building networks maybe um but I loved I would fly myself to conferences I would attend so many events um things that were way outside of my field of expertise um I did a lot of in-person courses as well where I met so many interesting people um and I just really wanted to improve myself as a person so at the time I was probably looking at it more of like how can I learn really interesting things at these conferences or by attending these events. I really want to hear that

00:55:44 - 00:56:40

particular keynote speaker. I probably wasn't thinking about it as much as wow how can I build a great network out of this but while I was there I was inherently networking and I think probably that was something that I didn't realize until later in my career was something that I was doing naturally by talking to the person sat next to you at the conference or reaching often I would reach out to the speaker afterwards on LinkedIn and say like I really enjoyed these three things from your talk like awesome keynote I loved

00:56:12 - 00:57:07

it like thanks so much and not because I wanted anything out of it just genuinely I really thought that they'd done an amazing job or I'd learned something really interesting and I it wasn't until much later in my career that people like that's strange people don't normally do that. Oh, okay. So, >> do you have a story where you had an interaction with someone and perhaps you mis um perhaps you under assumed their value and then you were completely in shock and awe later on with how much

00:56:39 - 00:57:36

value they brought to your network. >> Oh, absolutely. All the time. Like I think early in my career I was meeting people who I probably didn't realize how senior they were in their ranks or how illustrious their career had been especially probably internationally um when I would meet people and you know especially maybe just through a a dinner with you know 10 people after you've been at a conference or something and you sort of don't know necessarily that this person is like a hugely powerful

00:57:08 - 00:57:55

influential figure in in their industry or in a particular field. Um, and so it wasn't probably until afterwards that I think that's why it's always really important to be really nice to everyone. You know, you don't know who anyone is. You know, you don't know who your weight server is going to end up becoming. So I think genuinely approaching people with curiosity and kindness is like base rule number one in being a good human. Um, so yeah, definitely all the time there's

00:57:31 - 00:58:36

been so many cases where or where people in my life have ended up becoming incredibly powerful um or successful or um and certainly weren't when I first met them. >> Now, what about the law of proximity or the law of osmosis? By being in the right place, you're changing your luck. Um, there's a friend I have in my network and he was telling me about one of his friends who had bought the cheapest possible Ferrari he could buy. So, we could go to the car meets and hang out with the other guys and pretend

00:58:03 - 00:58:51

to care about Ferraris. Uh, and now he makes millions of dollars of business just because he's in the orbit of those people. >> I like the hustle. I respect the hustle. It's a creative way of approaching it. >> Apparently, this guy does not care about the car at all. He's like, it's just an investment to get me in that circle. Honey, I love that. I love that. I mean, I definitely think investing in your professional development, however that comes about, whether that's through

00:58:27 - 00:59:26

attending workshops, going to networking events, yeah, paying to send yourself overseas to something that you know is going to be, you know, like CES or one of the big conferences internationally that you're like, this is going to put me in the room with really important power players. Like, I think those things are really worth it. And I think investing in yourself like that is something I think I don't know if it's a generational thing, but I think maybe my generation or the generation above me were sort of

00:58:57 - 00:59:52

more hustlers and more inclined to do those things off their own bat and um had more of a proclivity to invest in themselves and professional development. I think find a lot of people now, you know, are like, I don't want to go to networking events after work or like, you know, I just want to go and see my friends or I'm like, you're not doing it for me. You're doing it for you. Like, this should be something that you're investing in for your, you know, if you get offered to go, I don't know, go to a

00:59:25 - 01:00:19

great conference for work or whatever it might be. going because you're like this is an opportunity to develop myself and my career. I always say to people like my responsibility if you work for me is to get you from here to here and then accept that ideally you're going to leave and go to a new job and have another career after me, right? like I can only develop you so far and my job is to get you from here to here with as many contacts, as much self-confidence, as much training, great network so that

00:59:52 - 01:00:43

when you go to the next thing, you're so much more empowered and successful than you could possibly be if I didn't do those things with you. So, I think for people listening, I just think taking those opportunities, being the yes person who puts their hand up and says like, "I'd love to volunteer for that thing or I'd love to go to that function or you know, if you see things, there's so many amazing public events these days um that are free to go to." Like, throw yourself in the deep end, go be the yes

01:00:18 - 01:01:11

person and build those networks. It will just serve you so invaluably. Do you think that the youngest generation in business are struggling more in business because they're less inclined to have uh more in-person relationships? >> Yeah. And I definitely think that, you know, the rise of social media um you know, I've had junior staff members who are terrified of talking on the phone. They're like, I don't use the phone for that. Like I text or I email. And I'm like, no, no, pick up the phone. Like

01:00:44 - 01:01:37

pick up the phone and call someone. like you can build so much more rapport and get something done so much more quickly in a phone call than you can by endlessly emailing each other back and forth all day. Like don't be afraid of that. So I think it's definitely like a cultural generational thing. I think um yeah advent of social media, the internet, co probably exp, you know, expedited that and made it exponentially worse. Do you think that uh you know social media, LinkedIn, these platforms

01:01:10 - 01:02:08

because they're so easily accessible 24 hours a day, has this made people lazy with the traditional networking skills? >> I think it has made has made people confuse um connecting with actually building a rapport or a relationship. So they think, oh, I connected with this person on LinkedIn and I commented on one one of their posts, so like job done. I've added five people to my network this week, but that's not actually building a relationship and it's not actually that person's never

01:01:39 - 01:02:36

going to advocate for you in a room that you're not in. So, it's not actually adding to any value to your life. They're not someone that you could pick up the phone and ask it for advice for from or, you know, so I I think they're misconstring the idea or the nature of building a network. Now, through our network together, I've met so many cool people in business that are deep domain experts that have almost zero social media presence, >> no digital footprint, but you put them

01:02:07 - 01:03:00

in, you know, a situation in business and they're absolute killers. >> What What's been your experience with people that have built these massive careers with these enormous networks? what are you finding that they're struggling with um when it comes to the world moving into more of a digital format? >> Yeah. And I think a lot of people strategically and very deliberately are like I don't want to be contactable like I or or I have a very minimal LinkedIn presence for example and they're like I

01:02:34 - 01:03:16

don't use Twitter, I don't use any other social profiles or I consume but I don't post. And they're like they can be very intentional about that. They're like if the people that need to know me know me and they know how to reach me. So sometimes it's very intentional and sometimes it's very deliberate. Other times it's that they weren't digital natives and you know were building their businesses far before any of these sort of social platforms and it's kind of a

01:02:55 - 01:03:50

it's probably a little bit like me and Tik Tok like you know I'm aware of it. I know it's really interesting. It doesn't necessarily really jam with me. I don't spend a lot of time on it. Um so I think it can be that for a lot of people um and that they're just not um maybe natural embraces of particular platforms and technologies. Um, so I think it's a combination of both of those things and that their time is often best spent in intimate like a boardroom style lunch

01:03:22 - 01:04:15

conversation or you know they're meeting with really interesting people in you know more curated networking events. Um, so I think finding a way to be in those rooms and connect with those people, um, can be really powerful. And also like, you know, it is still worth reaching out to them through social media or, you know, getting their email address and sending them a cold note, sending them a snail mail, you know, I'm a big fan of that. So sending them handwritten correspondence never goes astray. Now,

01:03:49 - 01:04:37

when you think about perhaps younger generations at large, when they're using their digital first platforms for themselves to build, you know, reputation and what have you, can that overflate like how they're perceived and what their true value is? >> Yeah. And I think you need to be really mindful about what you share online, um, personally and professionally, like obviously it lives online forever. And the first thing anyone's going to do when they're looking at, you know,

01:04:12 - 01:05:06

inviting you to an event or hiring you or dating you is they're going to Google you and they're going to see what's out there about you. And it needs to be authentic. And I think unfortunately with the rise of, you know, AI and chat GPT, there's just so much sludge on the internet now of like just information overload of people curating and and um sharing all of this like AI dril of, you know, thought leadership pieces or whatever. And it just doesn't resonate like you know if you're looking at a

01:04:40 - 01:05:37

25year-old sharing these deep you know introspective thought leadership pieces on something that is just so not you know something that is not naturally going to have come from them it just jars and it feels totally inauthentic. So it's much better if you share really meaningful witty sharp interesting pieces that genuinely come from you and are genuinely your view on the world and are real and they're not perfect but people love that. they want to deeply know you. So, I just think about use use

01:05:09 - 01:06:01

each of the platforms in the way that they're designed. Um, utilize all of the features like video is great on LinkedIn. You know, there's so many still so many ways that you can use those platforms in a way that is right and relevant to you in a format that feels right, but yes, just don't churn out a whole bunch of AI generated information that is of no value to anyone. So if we look at networking and we look at you know whether someone's digital or organic and you look at the

01:05:34 - 01:06:29

levels or the tiers of building a network what I've experienced is like there's this >> social surface where everyone's online and then there's like okay we know the the top performative content creators in our industry or in our space. What I found is as you get deeper into industries, um, you pull back the curtain, so to speak, you start to realize like, okay, like there's some players here that have almost like no profile and you have to actually do homework. You have to actually figure

01:06:02 - 01:06:52

out who am I in a room with. >> How would you define the different tiers of network building? Obviously, there's the entry level, there's the novice, uh, there's mastery, and then all the way to the top. And I'm talking about like the absolute highest echelons that you've worked in. How would you define those brackets or those parameters and how does the game change every time you move up? >> Yeah. So, I think you're right. Like you start with the really sort of surface

01:06:27 - 01:07:21

level stuff of like I can follow this person on Instagram or Tik Tok and I can comment on their posts. I can like their things and maybe I can DM them and probably I'm not going to get a response but I'm somehow inserting myself in their orbit but I'm not really adding value and this is not a mutually beneficial relationship. >> Right on the outer layer. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um then ideally you move to the next layer of that which is you're doing something that is adding value to this

01:06:54 - 01:07:49

person's life. So you know I'm sure you have but I've certainly met so many people through social media that I don't know in real life but they are interesting, entertaining, informing. They've added value to my life in a way that I would now count them as, you know, an outer part of my network of someone that I would think of if I'm like, "Oh gosh, I need, I don't know, maybe a speaker for this event or a I don't know, whatever it might be." Um, an expert to recommend for something.

01:07:21 - 01:08:11

Um, the next layer on top of that is where you're starting to really think strategically about your network and developing a network that's going to work for you in future. So thinking about who maybe the important power players are in your space or who's going to really add value to your career, to your business, to your personal life, whatever it might be. actually starting to think about that and map that out and finding different touch points whether it's through events, whether it's

01:07:46 - 01:08:44

through um structured clubs like being a part of groups and functions, joining membership clubs, connecting with those people online and trying to actually make more of a strategic approach to those people, getting that one-on-one facetime or at least meeting them in person at an event and starting to build that personal CRM with those different touch points in it. you've really started getting cut through with these people. You are on their radar. They're aware of who you are. They can probably

01:08:15 - 01:09:12

ideally talk to what your domain expertise is or where you add value, why they consider you a part of their network. I think advanced is where you are probably one of the people being sought out by others. And >> okay, so it's like uh novice, intermediate, uh mingling. Yeah. >> Advanced advanced. >> Okay. So now we're moving into advanced, right? So now I think you're at a point where you are adding value to other people's lives in a way that they are deriving um a lot of value from and they

01:08:44 - 01:09:26

find that m and they want it to be mutually rewarding. >> There's commerce taking place. I'm doing favors for you, you're doing favors for me. >> Yeah. And you're probably front of mind. Not obviously all the time. It's going to vary from person to person, but they're the sort of person um they see you as the sort of person that they're coming to when they need when they want to seek counsel um and when they want advice on something. um they're putting

01:09:05 - 01:10:04

business opportunities in front of you and vice versa. It's a very um mutually beneficial and respectful relationship um that feels like not necessarily always as peers because there can always be a different power dynamic um in the relationship, but there's mutual respect um and admiration. >> How how important is it that people stick to their words um for for good or for bad? >> I think it's really important. I think it's it comes down to the core of integrity, like doing what you say

01:09:34 - 01:10:32

you're going to do. And I think all of us only want to do business with people who do what they say they're going to do. They deliver on time. They, you know, excel. They're honest. They're hardwork. And I think how you show up in those micro interactions with someone is so important. That's what builds that trust and it's what I think shapes people's view and identity of you, especially when you don't know someone that well. So yeah, were they on time? Did they um come prepared? You know,

01:10:04 - 01:10:51

were they professional? Were they articulate? Were they well-groomed? Um you know, did they after that meeting, did they send the follow-up notes like they said they would? You know, did they come back with a timely quote? Like all of those little tiny touch points in life, whether it's personally or professionally, are all shaping what we think about a person. Um uh yeah, are they constantly disorganized, always late, always in chaos, you know, never come with a pen to a meeting? I don't

01:10:28 - 01:11:30

know. All of those little things, you start to shape a perception of someone. >> Do you have any stories where like, you know, crazy things had happened in networks where like promises were fulfilled? Like, have you got any um any stories in that regard? There's lots of times where my network have come out to bat for me or you know actually a good example is um online model academy the new business that I just launched where I went to a bunch of people in my network who are you know the ex head of

01:10:58 - 01:11:55

IMG Australia um Max May the celebrity makeup artist two top international models um top celebrity photographer um so many amazing people and went to them and said like hey I've got this idea here and I think it would be really good if we built this together and you know I'd love you to be involved. Would you like to be involved? And they're like sure like you know it was such an example of my network being like look I trust her. She executes you know she's a good business person. She's a good

01:11:27 - 01:12:17

person. She's not going to rip me off. She wants to build something that's good and inherently good for the industry. That's always been her premise. I'd love to be involved. Why not? You know and I think that that's a you know they they knew that I was building from a place of integrity. They knew I had runs on the board. Um, they cared about what I was trying to build and it was, yeah, as simple as, you know, picking up the phone and and asking. >> One of my mentors in business said to me

01:11:52 - 01:12:52

very early on, I was 19 at the time, said to me, Dane, your network will either help you or hinder you. >> Yeah. >> Based on how you've treated it up to date. >> So true. For me, I realized at that point in time, I called out to my network and he said, "Look, I want you to play this game. I want you to call 100 people in your network and ask them for a favor and make a weird request and see how many people answer, how many people call you back, how many people text you back,

01:12:23 - 01:13:11

>> and what happens." And like, no one cared. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was like, >> I love that. >> 19. No one gave a flying rip about helping me. Yeah, >> I promise you now if I did the exact same thing now, like everyone would call me back, >> the the question I have for you around this is like this notion around building a network, like what is that >> what is that really worth to you? Like how do you put a value on that? >> It's really interesting because I've

01:12:47 - 01:13:51

been thinking about it a lot in this sort of next chapter of my career because it's it's so inherently valuable, but you you actually can't value it. And it's a weird um unlike experience which is sort of very tangible when you look at it on paper um >> like a resume or >> resume. Exactly. Or you know training courses or degrees or things like that. It's very very hard to sort of articulate and explain to people the value of your network and especially when it's as disperate and strange and

01:13:19 - 01:14:20

odd as sort of mine is. So, it's something I've been thinking a lot about because it has been instrumental in my career and also so many opportunities that I've been given personally like incredible experiences that I've had, amazing events that I've got to attend, um, incredible people that I've got to meet has, you know, been been so much through my network. And so, it's unquantifiable the I'm so glad whilst I didn't know it at the time, that I was investing in my network in my 20ies. And

01:13:49 - 01:14:43

I really did it purely organically and probably just maybe from innately being a bit of a hustler and thinking like, okay, I really met this person. I really like them. I'm really interested by them. I want to, you know, get the opportunity to have another lunch meeting with them or whatever it might be. Um, I didn't realize that it was building something that was so so important for the latter part of my career. >> How do you how do you try to at least quantify that? like if you had to um

01:14:16 - 01:15:16

attach a mentality to it or some poetry to it like how would you define uh the intrinsic value of a network? >> Gosh, I think it is it's it definitely is the thing that can make or break your career. Absolutely. I think having >> no matter the industry >> no matter the industry absolutely like I think having the right people advocate for you especially when you're not in the room and say I mean and there will be untold number of times that someone has done something for me in my career

01:14:47 - 01:15:37

that I'll never know about you know I wasn't in the room they yeah they advocated for me or they suggested someone reach out to me I mean very very um occasionally will you get someone that says like so and so told me to reach out most people just reach out, right? Like they don't actually say, "Ben told me to get in touch with you or Ben recommended you'd be great to speak to about X, Y, and Z thing." Um, so I think, you know, there's I can only imagine how many times that um,

01:15:12 - 01:16:03

opportunities have come to me because someone has advocated for me or recommended me or said my name in a room and I'm eternally grateful for that. >> So, if you think about that as a concept, it's almost like uh, let's say you have territory on a map. >> Yeah. and you're trying to like put these flags on the map where you're like, "Okay, I got contacts over here and over there and I'm trying to like almost like gather territory or gather resources." How do you actively shape

01:15:37 - 01:16:34

how you're spoken about in rooms that you're not in? >> That is such a great question because I would be very intrigued to know very similar to what you were saying like how do people describe me like what does she do because my career is sort of quite broad and diverse. Um I think um what's important for me and one of the things that I really try and do with people when I first get to know them is getting them to like firstly feel like warmth about me like I think people can sometimes when they've seen something

01:16:06 - 01:16:57

about you online or have a preconceived idea about how you're going to show up like I really want them to a lot of people always say you're so much nicer than I thought you were going to be and I god what did you think I was going to be like? So, you know, really sort of maybe dispelling that myth um and making people comfortable with me and then hoping to expose them to so many different elements of me as a person. So, not just my professional career, but like my interest areas. I'm I'm really

01:16:31 - 01:17:18

interested in geopolitics. It's a lot about what I read about, you know. So, I think getting people to understand the full breadth and shape of you as a person so that your name is not just coming up in transactional situations, >> okay? Like instead of being like Dane, the personal branding guy, the branding agency guy, it's like, "Oh, there's this guy I know who's like they could tell a story or they could flesh your character out a bit more." >> Yeah. Exactly. That you know, you've got

01:16:55 - 01:17:43

these really deep interest areas or that you're actually like an incredible comedic talent or that Yeah. you you're an amazing podcaster, you know, like they have these different touch points about you so that they can shape a really informed way of knowing when is the right time to bring opportunities to you and what's going to be of interest and where you can add value to others. >> Okay. So, in in your case with your character, what are the things you're trying to keep top of mind about

01:17:19 - 01:18:21

yourself so that people don't just see you as like a onetrick pony? >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's been really because my career has sort of naturally morphed from very much talent focused to social media and sort of digital marketing and then into tech and being a founder and sort of startup raising capital venture um and then into advisory and across a whole bunch of different spheres. So it's kind of taken this but my I actually studied politics and international relations which is

01:17:50 - 01:18:45

absolutely nothing to do ended up doing what I ended up working in. So um and then I'm probably known for other things like I'm really into biohacking and longevity and health and wellness and exercise and you know exploring sort of optimization of those things. So um I guess in some ways social media is really good for that and that I can share my interests more holistically. Um, >> so you can kind of like create a narrative that control that in some way which I which I imagine is

01:18:17 - 01:19:18

>> maybe more beneficial today because people couldn't do that back >> exactly exactly the internet. >> Um, you know, and I I did studied at Harvard in competing in the age of AI 18 months ago, two years ago, which was quite early in the sort of this next advent of AI kind of era. Um, and so I'm deeply interested in AI and um, generative AI tools and how that's going to transform work forces and also what it's going to look like on a macro scale like you know universal basic income and

01:18:48 - 01:19:41

some of those things. And so I try and share a lot of my sort of musings and thinking and reading around that. Um, sort of I guess some of those more fringe areas that are not core to my um, I guess commercial career um, because they're really important to me and they're what I'm more interested in at this point. when you're thinking about your network and you're looking at all these amazing beautiful people that you know uh like you said you had your one week, your six month, your annual

01:19:14 - 01:20:00

>> um how do you identify which places you should be watering in your garden? >> Yeah. And it will change dependent on what I'm going through in life and in business. Um >> I'll give you an example there. So let's say someone's like really early or new in business and they're like, "Hey, I want to like start to get a leg up. I want to get into my uh the circle in my industry. I want to work and rub shoulders with the coolest people. Um, you know, where should they put their

01:19:38 - 01:20:27

energy at the beginning of their journey? >> Yeah. So, there'll probably be people that are like much further along on the journey than you and you might be lucky to get on their calendar twice a year, you know. So, great, you know, you should take those slots. You should, you know, try and get those slots and and be front of mind with those people for that time. But there'll be other people who are maybe closer to where you are in your journey but a little bit further ahead or they might be you know

01:20:02 - 01:21:06

strategically aligned. They might be you know a supplier or someone that can add a lot of value in a particular way. So you know in my journey I've had mentors or people in my network that were CTOs. When I was first building a tech company I didn't know anything about how to build a product. So I was I spent a lot of time very very close to someone who was a super senior CTO who you know I would probably see once a month. Um who I would probably endlessly email that you know I was very very lucky that you

01:20:34 - 01:21:34

know that person you know really could see that I was putting my back into building this business and they were willing to give me that time. So there'll be times like that where you'll have a really I guess deeper need for a particular skill set or relationship or um strategic uh like door opener from a particular person and so you might be spending more time with that person or connecting more with that person and that might naturally evolve over time that you know you see less of that

01:21:04 - 01:21:52

person or so I think it's about working out what are the things that you need right now. Also, do you need um particular skill sets? Do you need door opening? Like, if you're raising capital, the type of connections you're going to be making and where you're going to be spending your time is is going to be very different. And then I think it's important to have ideally you want to have people who stay with you throughout the whole journey and that can be those people that can reflect,

01:21:28 - 01:22:35

you know, 2 years, 3 years, four years, 5 years down the track on patterns that they've seen with you. they become those sort of deep key parts of your network who maybe have a more 360 view of you as a person as opposed to particular parts of just your commercial life or just your personal life. So I think it really depends on the seniority of the person um or availability of the person that you're trying to connect with. Um the needs that you have at the time personally or professionally um and also

01:22:01 - 01:22:58

probably how much time and capacity you have. Um because I know there were certainly chapters in my career when I was like heads down building a business and I was like I actually just need to build like right now or you know when I was selling one of my businesses I just needed to get through that transaction like I didn't have time for you know I remember sending a a WhatsApp to probably my 10 closest friends and some of my family just saying give me 3 months like I don't have I can't I don't

01:22:30 - 01:23:17

have time to reply to emails. I don't have reply to time to reply to texts. not coming to anyone's birthday, not coming out for drinks, nothing. I just need to get through this transaction. Sorry, see you in 3 months. Buy myself some head space. So, I think it will depend on a bunch of factors. >> No, I like what you're saying there. It reminded me of something that Chris Williamson was talking about recently where he said that you meet people and they're at the same level as you and you

01:22:53 - 01:23:44

do business together. you, you know, share commerce together, but the speed you're moving at and progressing is greater than the speed that they're moving at and progressing. And it ends up in this predicament where it's like you're leaprogging into higher echelons in business. >> Yeah. >> And >> unfortunately, people feel like they get left behind. >> What's your approach when when you know you're busy and you're leveling up and you're crushing it and then people

01:23:19 - 01:24:10

inside your network that were once there aren't able to fit anymore? like how do you handle that? >> I think I I'm always very mindful of making pe making sure that people um have like a warm interaction with me. So I never want people to feel and this probably why I needed a no template, but like I never want people to think like she's too busy, she thinks she's too cool, she's thinks she's too important or whatever. Like I'm not the leader of the free world, right? Like I got time.

01:23:44 - 01:24:37

So, I really want to make sure that if someone really really needs me for something that they can always reach out and that, you know, they never feel like they're going to be met with, you know, a cold reply or an automated message or whatever. So, firstly, I think that that's really really important. Secondly, I think it's really being honest with yourself and others about your time constraints. And I think I'm pretty honest about that publicly on my social media and I think people respect

01:24:10 - 01:24:59

that and they don't I think they're um they're respectful and they're honest in when they do need me. So if someone comes to me, you know, it still happens where I'll have like a young model reach out and say like, "Really don't know where to get started. Can I have some advice?" Blah blah blah. And now I've got a course that I can direct them to. But prior to that, I'd be like, "Okay, like look, here's two or three things to read." um or you know or a quick voice

01:24:35 - 01:25:32

note because I thought you know what like I I was that person once asking a CTO for advice or you know so I do think it's important that there's a managing of your time trying to create scalable processes like a big part of creating online model academy was so that I could do that at scale without having to do the one-on-one with people. So thinking about is there I have heaps of blogs on my website that are about like advice for raising capital or you know building an MVP or some of the really common

01:25:04 - 01:25:54

questions that I would get so that I could I guess scale myself in some ways. >> Now if you could go back in time and imagine yourself sitting across the table from yourself >> and the young version of yourself is you know in this state that you were explaining before where it was kind of like I don't need help like I got it all figured out. I'm going to surround with people. >> Yeah. >> Surround myself with people that agree with me, etc. What would be like >> that conversation if you had 10 minutes

01:25:29 - 01:26:36

with yourself? >> Gosh. >> How would you help prepare the younger you venturing into the network you've now created? >> Yeah. I would definitely say you're going to save yourself like years of pain and heartache and misspent time, money, any energy, effort if you don't surround yourself with the right people. So if you could go back and if I could go back and do it again like >> trying to explain to myself at that age that it wasn't about being right. It was

01:26:01 - 01:26:59

about building a better business and however that is getting there like it's not it's not about you know having all the right answers or having it be perfect or you know being being the one to you know get I guess be able to always nail it and always execute. It's about how do you build a long-term sustainable successful business or businesses and career and you're far more likely to do that with the right people in your corner. >> If you were to give yourself three unbreakable rules, what would they have

01:26:32 - 01:27:48

been? >> Definitely always act with integrity. So if you say you're going to do something, do something. Deliver on it. Um get the no template written earlier so you don't burn yourself out. I definitely burnt myself out in my late 20s and early 30s just feeling obliged to go to everything and feeling obliged to take every coffee meeting and you know burning up a lot of time and energy doing that. And I think um probably having the humility and um honesty to know what you don't know

01:27:11 - 01:28:12

early in your career and being okay with that and not feeling like I think there was this whole hustle culture, fake it till you make it, just work 24 hours a day. um that I think was really really unhealthy. And I think if I'd been at a place earlier in my career to put my hand up and ask for help, ask for feedback, take it on board. Um admit what you don't know. I think that first probably five years of my career would have been so much easier. >> I would love to have had this advice

01:27:42 - 01:28:47

>> like a good six years ago. You don't know everything. You can ask for help. >> Uh and you don't have to work so hard. >> Yeah. And people people are good and they genuinely want to help others. I think that that's so true. >> Um, final question. Obviously, this podcast is about how people like yourself are taking massive agency over their life and their careers. What does taking agency mean to you? >> Wow, what a good question. Um, I think probably being more mindful and more

01:28:15 - 01:29:17

strategic about where I spend my time and energy and head space um, both personally and professionally and making considered decisions on the back of that and I guess having the freedom and autonomy to make those decisions. Beautiful answer and we've far there's so many more questions I wish I could ask you today. I I think this has been a ton of fun and like just understanding networking at such a deeper level has been like insightful and eye opening to me. There's like a good eight things in

01:28:47 - 01:29:38

here I'm going to start doing. Uh one of which is like you know post interaction like connect with someone and like close the loop. I think that's gamechanging. Like that's really super great advice for me. I always love hanging out with you. We've caught up numerous times and I've always felt like my cup has been full when I've left and I'm certain we'd love to have you back again in the future. But yeah, Taran, thank you so much. >> Thank you. I always love these

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