What Beauty Brands Don't Want You To Know | Bonnie Gillies

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All natural makeup is [ __ ] It'll last you two. It's like food. It's made from food. It will last you two weeks. They all have some sort of preservative in it. There's these brands saying they're all natural, but they have red lipsticks and bright pink lipsticks. You cannot make those colors naturally. The only way is Bonnie Gillies is a beauty expert with over 20 years of industry experience. First making her mark in fashion and film before launching Oz Beauty Expert and her award-winning

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brand basic by B. There is just so much of this BS. Like no one is out there putting toxic chemicals in your makeup. Brainwashing is out of control and it's brainwashed people thinking they need all natural. Bonnie Gillies. Bonnie Gillies. Beauty expert Bonnie Gillies. There's so many content creators now and there's not a lot of value in a lot of the content. So I don't feel like it's the skills to create the content that's needed. It's the understanding of the platforms. Is it all natural? Does it

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contain chemicals? Water. Is it chemical compounds? All down to the dose. Water is toxic at a certain dose. You will die if you drink too much water. So, what does that mean? Has it got anything that's toxic in it? Well, of course it doesn't. Why am I doing this? And I am genuinely I know I'm selling something, but I my passion is to help people. What's your thoughts on where the industry really is at this point in time? Um, this episode is brought to you by Wix Studio. Now, for you and your story, there's a

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few interesting points. One is that you have been involved with the royal family. Uh, and also you've been on set and done beauty within the film industry for like the Da Vinci Code. Yep. So, I worked overseas when I was young and I was a national makeup artist for Elizabeth Arden and they used to fly me all around to different jobs, but they had the royal warrant for cosmetics, which means they supply Buckingham Palace with makeup. And one day they got this letter. The general manager of Elizabeth Arden um got a letter from the

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Queen's lady in waiting saying, "We're getting all these boxes of products and we have no idea what to do with them. can you send someone to show us? So I went there. It wasn't with the queen, but it was with her ladies um and showing them how to use all the products at at Buckingham House, which is right next to Buckingham Palace. So you actually went into Buckingham House. Yeah, I did really good jobs really young. Like I worked on Hollywood movies and um lots of TV and fashion and I was

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just on the hustle like to back then to get on the movies that I got on to you needed contacts. you needed to know someone and was borderline harassment to until they give you a job like I was hungry then you know to do some really good makeup jobs. So if you take me into the mind of a makeup artist as I understand it there's there's so many things kind of converging into one. One of course is you have to work and learn how to work with skin because there's different skin types and textures and

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and um you know health and all the rest of it. Then there's, you know, obviously understanding the latest trends in what's popular and what is going to fit someone's face. Take me into the science of of, I guess, makeup in and of itself. Like, what things do you have to be conscious of as an artist to be able to get into circles like being on sets for movies or being in Buckingham Palace? Well, to get to get into those kind of jobs, it's such a small industry really. The pe the amount of people that are

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working on those jobs, it's especially in Australia, it's almost impossible. That's why I ended up in fashion in Australia because when I came back, the industry is so small. There just wasn't any films going going on. But it's yeah, you have to kind of make contacts and connections and now it's probably easier because there's social media. We didn't have that. You have to actually find people and you had to cold call them back then and like email them and like Yeah. But um it's competitive to get

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into those top jobs definitely. And nowadays I would say you absolutely need to have a social media presence already because that kind of adds it to your like works as a business card almost. And then in terms of like knowing an experience to work on those jobs, after I studied makeup school, like at makeup college, I went and worked overseas and I worked a lot of um department stores on beauty counters and that is like makeup artist university because you are doing all ages, all races, like all skin tones,

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all skin types. it it's really good to get teach you how to be quick at what you're doing, do a good job and know what works for, you know, different ethnicities and different skin types. If you're looking at how everyone's trying to be a content creator in the beauty space right now, what's your thoughts on where the industry really is at this point in time? Is it a good thing that everyone is out there making content or is it changing the industry? I feel like I I feel like there's so many content

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creators now and there's not a lot of value in a lot of the content. Um, and because what gets views, a lot of it is trend kind of like uh entertainment stuff, there's so much of that. The creators that want to get good reach and followers are doing like what the trends that they think are going to get them the most views. I don't know. It's kind of disappointing in the quality of what's out there, I think, on social media, the organic posting, but then at the same time, it's so good for

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the consumer and the everyday woman to be able to find people that can educate them and help them. So, yes, there's really amazing content on there that's way more easy to access than it used to be, but you've just got to sift through all the crap first to find the people that resonate with you. What led you into making tutorials? Like what was the first idea that went through your head of like, okay, I'm going to start sharing my craft uh online and publicly? Do you know what I actually don't know

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why I started doing it? This is I've always had a passion for education. And I've always been good at articulating trends and, you know, taking something that someone might be struggling with beauty-wise and uh taking it in and then relaying it to them and showing them how to do it in a way that they can understand and then replicate at home. Um, and I never really knew because like I said, I was I started I remember I was a makeup artist working in fashion and I started posting this is how it all

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started to be honest. started posting pictures of jobs I'd worked on and listing what products I used and other people that I was shooting with, stylists, photographers were so rude and condescending about it. Oh, you want to be one of those makeup artists, do you? Like an a t an Instagram makeup artist. And I just like made me feel really ridiculous. And then so I I don't know why, but I knew it was a thing. And I knew people liked it because people were responding with like, "Oh, what lip

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color is that?" And like, you know, I knew that there was something to it, so I just kept doing it anyway. And then fast forward, you know, two to three years later, all of those people that I was working with are scrambling to have a social media presence because, you know, photographers, everyone's trying to have a presence on on Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever it is. So, I just think I don't want to sound like I'm like stuck up or anything, but I just think sometimes I do things and I don't really

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know why I'm doing them, but I'm on to something, you know? like I just seem to be a little bit ahead of the curve with things like that. I was posting on it before a lot of other like most other people started posting their tutorials and things. So I took that's what I was doing first. I had little kids. I was a bit embarrass like I wouldn't have posted photos of myself. It was anonymous. I was known as Oz Beauty Expert and I was posting models and how I did their hair and how I did their

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makeup. And then I got approached by Roxy Jenko cuz she started an influencer agency and she said, "You've got to start posting your face." And I remember thinking, "Oh my god, how embarrassing." Like all these moms at school with my like the moms from school going to go, "Look at this girl posting pictures of herself and videos of myself." And when I did that, that's when I really just like took off cuz people like want to see a person. So I started posting

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videos and content on myself. And to be honest with you, that kind of content works so much better than when education wise than when you're doing makeup on a model. Because if I post a video and I'm doing makeup on a model and saying this is how you do it, the viewer thinks of course she can do it. She's a makeup artist. But if you're doing it on yourself, they can actually relate and go okay that is how I would do it on myself. So that's why all the content that I post even though I could be doing

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beautiful models makeup and it's mainly on myself or if I'm using UGC creators for the brand now, I'll always get them to be doing it on themselves, not doing it on someone else. some of the things you said there that are interesting because I talk to people about this all the time which is, you know, I would like to make content but I'm fearful that my colleagues will judge me or people in my industry will make fun of me or um you know I'm nervous to put my face out there and just the idea of that

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terrifies people. What what do you think was going through their minds when people were I guess judging you at the very beginning when you started doing this and they thought that you're going to become one of those? Um, I just think that so it the fashion industry was very closed off. Like someone had to die for you to get a job in there, you know, like they and you know, I'd come back I'd come back from London. I was 26, 27. I had all this experience on amazing jobs. No one ever said, "Oh, how old are

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you?" I came back here and just because of my age, everyone said, "You'll have to be someone's assistant. You'll have to be." And I was like, "No, if you tell me I can't do something, it'll just make me want to do it more." So, I didn't. But everyone's like, "Oh, you'll have to be someone's assistant. You're too young. You're too young." So, I it was just the industry at the time. It was very exclusive. Um, all those people

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kind of had a lot of p power. They were very highly paid, way better paid than they are now. Makeup artists, stylists, photographers. Um, so they were very protective of it. And I guess in their perspective, they probably do think that Instagram, social media has has ruined that. But I don't know. I just um yeah, I think that's where they were coming from. and then they realize, oh, hang on, this is this is a thing. People people want that kind of content. Would you say that? Like, for example, there's

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two things happening at the same time. One, I imagine would be, you know, call it the old guard, which is this is how makeup is done. Uh, if you want to earn your stripes, you need to be someone's assistant and you need to do it for 10 years and whatever that might have been, which was that was the blueprint for let's say however many years. All of the sudden these new platforms show up where people can just literally turn their camera on and talk to the whole world. Now all of a sudden there's no

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gatekeeper. It's you yourself are the gatekeeper. I think two things are happening. One which is when something changes whoever controls the old version wants to protect that at all costs. two is like those that are tired of being rejected from said system are then going to be the first adopters of the new system. Did any of that drive your thinking patterns or you were just more opportunistic like I'm going to pounce on this? Um I just think that that that I don't know. I knew I was on to

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something. I was getting traction from the people that were watching it so I just kind of ignored it and and kept and kept doing it. Um, but yeah, I just I just did it. I'm one of those kind of people. If if someone tells me I can't do something, it'll just make me try 10 times harder to do it. I love that. Okay. So, when you're making content and you're thinking about beauty, I understand it's a somewhat of a sensitive landscape because you're talking about someone's personal

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routine, something that they might do in private. Um, there might be fears or concerns. And then there's also the zygeist of, you know, beauty brands prey on people's insecurities. Yeah. So how do you navigate that territory without you know rocking the boat too much? Like what's your approach, your take on um educating women when it comes to something so personal? So I my content I will usually try and deliver it with some value and some sort of piece of education in there suggesting that this might make you look

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and therefore feel great. I would never say that you're doing this wrong or you're doing, you know, this is how you should do it. One of my pet peeves is when people comment on videos saying that's not how you you apply that. It pisses me off because makeup's an art. You don't tell a painter how to paint a painting, do you? Or what tool to use. You can do it any way you want. There are no rules. So, what I am showing people are just suggestions or guidelines that might make their life

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easier and might make them feel great, might update their look a little bit. So, I'm never like saying this is how you've got to do it because I actually really don't believe that that should be ever said. Um, yeah, makeup's an art and it's designed to make you look and feel great. And if you apply your makeup in some weird and wonderful way, doesn't matter as long as it looks the way you want it to look and you feel good about it. That makes sense. And I think that when you are making content and you're

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being conscious of like, let's focus on the positives. Let's not make anyone feel silly or stupid for doing it a certain way. That makes sense to me. If if you're saying, "Okay, let's take the beauty space as a whole and hypothetically everyone's trying to be a content creator, so to speak, fresh out of college, fresh out of university, they did a program or a course, now they're an educator." I'm sure you see this a lot and go, "Okay, cool." Like,

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they're probably not as experienced as they need to be. But if everyone's a content creator, um, but not everyone's a brand builder, like how would you define the difference between just posting content and someone who's actually building a brand for themselves? Because I think if you're just posting uh makeup educational videos alone, it's that's what you're going to be known for. It's not going to evolve the brand. I think that the difference for me has been the makeup

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educational content, which is why people keep coming back, but also showing my personality, showing behind the scenes, showing my like normal day or where I go or what I do. Those little bits tie it all together, you know, and like build the brand out, make the person not just you can't just be one thing, one niche. You have to sort of show who you are. Many people argue that they need to find that one niche. What's your thoughts around that? I Well, I like on my OB Beauty Expert page, I just do

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educational makeup, post to the grid, but on the story, I'm always posting bits about me and everything. I just think people will identify you less as the person and it it's not as good for your community if you're not giving them a bit of yourself as well. That's what I feel like. Um, it's always going to be in beauty and predominantly in beauty what I'm posting, but I I think you need to have that person that you're identifying with as well. And it just helps to build the brand and the

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community. I think that people my brand went so well in the beginning because people kind of felt like they knew me. I wanted my content to be educational, but I wanted them to because I know I look at my demog like my analytics and on my videos, I always get way more saves than likes because heaps of people, women are busy and you're not going to go and go, "Oh, go girl." and like put um emojis and comments and like you don't, but you're like, "That's handy. I'm going

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out on Saturday night. Save that for later." So, I always get way way more saves on my videos than any other interaction. And I want to be that friend that you go and go, "Ah, I'm just gonna go check what Bonnie's get some ideas for Bonnie from Bonnie for Saturday night, like how I can do my makeup." So, if I was just I don't know. I've given them a sense that the people that follow me, they think they know my personality a little bit. So, I think that makes it more like a friend. And

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yeah, I'm trying to articulate that the right way. that I do know that people look to me as like not I'm up not up here like a professional makeup artist or some expert. I'm like a girlfriend that is good at makeup that can give them some really good tips. Business owners, if you're stuck using one platform for every project, you're probably stuck in a growth bottleneck. More clients means more hires, which just adds noise and cuts into profits. To break the loop, you need flexible

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how do you know if your content is resonating? Do you go by gut? Do you go by analytics? Before you said you went by saves. How do you know if content's doing good or if it's doing poorly? Um, I will go by analytics. I will look at what's performing. Um, but you're not always right. Like I spend a lot of time considering what content I'm going to post and what needs to be posted and sometimes things that I think are going to be amazing flop and sometimes that I think sometimes I think should I even

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post that and then I do it goes so well. So um I would go by analytics. I usually look at what's being saved. Um yeah, and how things are performing and they the way that that works on every different platform is completely different. Like I will rarely post the exact same video from Tik Tok to Instagram or vice versa. Why not? I just think they need different captions or different text or just a slightly different edit. It'll be the same video but just delivered a little bit different. What's the main

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difference between Tik Tok and Instagram? because on the surface they seem like they're kind of the same platform, but they really operate differently. Totally different audience. Like for one, we know it's a much younger audience on Tik Tok. Um, and the content on Tik Tok is always delivered with sound on. So the hook can be a hook that you hear, can be spoken, but if you do that on Instagram, if I'm speaking to the camera for the first 3 seconds without captions, people do not engage.

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They just keep going. So you have to it has to be delivered differently. I never thought of that. Like so people tend to use Tik Tok with audio on almost always. Well, Tik Tok is Yeah. Usually like all the kids all the young kids they have their AirPods in and they're just watching Tik Tok with the sound on. On Instagram most people have the sound off to start unless they actually go into reals and they're watching them. But most people watch the reels with the sound off. That makes sense cuz you know

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the younger generation always have their AirPods in. Yeah. Whereas if I look at my mom, she doesn't even know how to use it. She's always on Instagram. Yeah. So she's not going to have the sound going. So on Instagram, you've got to be mindful that the content has to capture attention without the sound on. Interesting. What else would you say is the predominant difference like how it's edited or the style or the lighting? Anything else? Just the trends on Tik Tok, the the entertainment factor.

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There's a lot more entertainment. But I do find now that Tik Tok is kind of setting a trend and that the entertainment type content is now really working well on Instagram. And have you seen you see a Tik Tok trend and then it shows up on Instagram two weeks later? Yeah, like a couple days or a couple weeks. Yeah. I just think that it's a little bit slower. It it gets there eventually, but the kids I think start the trend on Tik Tok and then people carry on and someone moves it over and

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then it goes there. So, do you post the same content on both or do you tend to reshoot uh for Tik Tok and Instagram? Um, yes. A lot of the educational content will post on both, but we will slightly edit it. Um, so Instagram will have captions or just a way that you can clearly see what it's about without the sound on. Um, and then some of the on Tik Tok we do like a lot of brand fun that fun content that has nothing to do with makeup or beauty. It's like, you know, um, who's the most likely to do,

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you know, those funny trends. We do those on Tik Tok and we do post some of them on Instagram, but not all of them. I just think it's not as it's not they're not going to go as well on Instagram as they do on Tik Tok. Those kind of things. Yeah. I find that the um Tik Tok is a lot more able to go viral typically. Like if you upload a lot of content, you could have one video do 15 million views. Um, but you could post on Instagram for years and never see numbers like that. If you're going to,

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this is part of the reason why Tik Tok is so important for a brand because it's the only place now that you can go viral organically. I think maybe YouTube shorts you can I've had some success on those as well, but Tik Tok you can go organically uh viral organically a lot easier than on Instagram. I would agree with that. Yeah. Once upon a time you could on Instagram. It seems like that's not the case anymore. No. Because you're competing with so much paid content on Instagram. Like most people are spending

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the majority of their ad spend on Meta or Google. Um not so much Tik Tok. I would say I'm assuming that's my business and a lot of businesses that I work with and know. Um so if you're trying to go organically viral on Instagram, you're competing with all those that that content that's got money behind it. M that's a really good insight because every time I meet a business owner and they're talking about their paid ad campaigns, it's always Instagram. They never talk about Tik

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Tok. Yeah. Right. So you're saying that from your perspective, Tik Tok seems to be a lot more organically built uh and have a lot more verality with reach whereas on Instagram maybe there's more volume of people paying. So then the paying people get a priority. I do think that what comes with that though is the the content on Tik Tok does become a bit more how do I say this? Like it's it's a bit cheaper. It's a bit more like for cheap thrills, you know, like cuz you've got to catch the cuz those kids, if you

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ever looked over like a 20-year-old's shoulder who's watching Tik Tok, they're just going they they come up and if they if you don't capture their attention in the first second, they're gone. like they are I don't even know how their eyes to it. So on Tik Tok, you've really got to make sure you're capturing their their attention in those first few seconds. Whereas on Instagram, I would say there's a lot more quality content, you can, you know, if it's if it's

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someone you've chosen to follow and you like their content already, you'll give it the benefit of the doubt for the first few seconds while you see what they've posted today. Yeah. Whereas Tik Tok, you're getting people that you're not you haven't chosen to follow. So if you the it's just like moving on, moving on, moving on. So it's very differently and I feel like a lot of Tik Tok content, it loses that bit of quality and it's just there for the cheap thrills to get them to capture their

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attention in the first few seconds. So I never thought about it a being an audio first platform, b it's kind of ad hoc or cheap and it's people are flying through quickly. Um is there anything else that you found algorithmically like how many times a day to post, how long the post should be, anything that you should be doing in the background on Tik Tok? Yeah, I think the more you post the better. Um, and the more you engage with other content, the better. I don't know that as a fact, but there is a theory

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that the more you engage, if you just, if you're a brand and you just go on there, do your daily post, and then get off, your videos won't work. You've actually got to be on there engaging, watching, saving things. And it's actually a good way to know what's happening on there anyway. It's not a bad thing to have to be looking on Tik Tok, but you have to post regularly. Like you can post up to three times a day, I would say, on Tik Tok. Um, no worries. Your post will go better for

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it. And you kind of get um a longer lifespan on Tik Tok. They keep getting views weeks after. And sometimes a video might randomly pop off a week or 10 days after you've posted it. So whereas Instagram, after 48 hours, that thing's dead. It's not going anywhere, you know. Um, so yeah, Tik Tok I would say regular posting three times a day as as a brand if you're like trying to grow your following three times a day having a variety of content. So you've got to have those cheap the cheap thrills

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videos that I'm talking about with but you've also got to have some balance it out with some valuable content, some brand content. Have you noticed any difference on uh I guess your brand's engagement like your company's engagement? Yeah. through Instagram or through Tik Tok for lead generation for products and sales. Yeah, absolutely. And I really feel like the brand uh what's the name for it? There's founder content and then there's so there's UGC and EGC, employee generated

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content. Yeah. So, you know, been so heavy on UGC for the last few years, paying creators to do things. This your team making content. I feel like that really helps. that really goes well and again it just makes it feel more human and not just a brand selling you stuff and I feel like sometimes that's the difference in compete that that is what gives you a competitive edge against the big guys and a very saturated market you know like beauty people ask who are your competitors I'm like you know brands

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that are owned by L'Oreal I don't know like huge huge brands you know so I don't think of it I don't think about competitors. I obviously look at what other people are doing and what prices people are charging for things, but I don't it's just such a saturated market and I think for a brand, especially in beauty to compete, you have to have a community. You have to have a personality. Your brand has to have a personality. People, you do need that founder content, the um you know, team

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content to make it relatable. And it just works so well, especially on Tik Tok. There are so many brands who like, have you seen these brands that they don't really even post about their product? They post about their team doing things and it just naturally brings them sales because people love the personalities that work for them or love seeing what they're getting up to that day. Now, when you ideulate, how do you ideate? How do you know what to talk about, when to talk about it, how much

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of a certain subject matter to hit? Um, do you have a bit of a loose framework for that? So there's so many different areas of content that I plan I'm planning for. There's my personal page as a makeup professional. There's the brand and then there's um paid advertising. So I'm taking you kind of put them in three buckets. I put them in three buckets. So for my personal brand, I am just thinking of, you know, I've been doing it for so long. There's only so many makeup

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lessons you can do. I've got to think of ways, new ways to give them educational content or reinvent something that I've done before. Um, and the good thing about that is a lot of the things that I do are current trends and translating that into a way that people can do their makeup that is in the fashionable way or the an up-to-date way um that they can understand. So, that kind of comes naturally. Then the brand um we source UGC creators. We've got to have a mix. So with the brand, we've broken that

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down into categories as well. Product, people, and then team. So we've got the product being used on people. We've got just product product videos, like really beautiful ones of the product and the packaging and, you know, manufacturing process and stuff. And then we've got um yeah, UG UGC. We will have we'll make sure it covers all ages, all races. we've got really diverse content to post. Um, and then team is like the fun, entertaining stuff of what goes on behind the scenes. And I feel like for

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us that trio of content works really well. So people, product, and process. Yeah. And that triage allows you to kind of branch into different things. So when it comes to people, it could be your team, it could be the the people you work with. Um, I know you host events and you bring people to those events. So it could be like the consumers or the fans hanging out um and uh telling stories or or answering questions or solving problems. The product is showcasing like what's in it, how is it made, why is it great for you? Uh and

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then the process of like how to use it and how to apply it. Yeah. So there's always going to be that for us it's got to have value and educational most of the content. It's also aspirational. So you look at it and you think that could make me, you know, I could look and feel really good if I use that. And then um just some relatable stuff that's the brand doing funny things or founder doing I don't know selling something or talking about something or just doing some silly challenge that someone makes

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me do. But you do a good job of that and like you said you don't want to be so stale that you just become so repetitive that people are like she's just going to do another tutorial. So you want to keep them on their toes a little bit. You know what? I think about this a lot and this is it's a it's like you I think before I would imagine people go to university and learn how to do marketing and that you follow the plan. You go to this business, this business and do it by by the plan. But in a

00:30:35 - 00:31:36

digital world, an e-commerce world and social media, you there's no solid foundation. It's you're on shifting sand and it is always moving and changing and you just when you think you've got your footing and you are nailing it and everything's working, there'll be a shift and you've got to figure it out again. So that's our content plan and the way that we do it now. But it's going to change. It just keeps changing. This whole social media world is constantly changing. It has changed so

00:31:06 - 00:32:06

much in the last 10 years of what works, what people are doing, what people want to see. Um, so I think you've just got to be very open to change and very willing to change. I think a lot of those brands that really killed it or even influencers that were really massive on Instagram in the start but were so stuck on their way of doing things and their way of posting, they just get lost. You have to actually be really good at adapting. I would totally agree. You nailed a really important point there. And we often talk to people

00:31:36 - 00:32:38

that are like, "What's the plan? Just give me the plan. I'll roll it out." And I always try to explain to people, content is different on each platform and then they're always changing and you'll be hot one minute and boring the next. Um, does that frustrate you having to constantly change your strategy and keep up to date with what's happening? It does, but I think that you have to have a good team around you at the moment where we need a junior like in age- wise, not so much experience, but

00:32:07 - 00:33:15

just someone who is like a Tik Tok native who that's the app they get on. I I probably spend 50/50 between Instagram and Tik Tok now, but I need someone who the first app they open is Tik Tok, someone who is just on to that. And you can't always be good at everything. I just think I need to pay someone and have the help to really get the most out of Tik Tok cuz I think it's just I think it's just that generation are just so good at it. And there's things that maybe are a trend

00:32:41 - 00:33:27

that I don't quite understand or get and that's okay, but I need that kind of support, someone that does. So I think building out your team, everyone's like watching. Everyone's ready to change and adapt. Yeah. Yeah, I think you've just got to be on to it. Now, for those that aren't in the position to be able to have a team member for that, per se, what would be your advice for someone who's like, I got to figure this Tik Tok thing out. Like, spend time on it. I've

00:33:04 - 00:34:01

done it. Like, at first I was I used to get on it and go, do you know what? I actually I actually started doing silly videos with my kids when they would let me and cuz I think I'm pretty funny, but I think you're hilarious. But they would get millions and millions of views. like our videos went viral of us just doing silly [ __ ] and then I would post them on my OB Beauty Expert Tik Tok and then I would post a makeup video and no one cared. Like it would just flop and I was like it got to like I don't know a year

00:33:32 - 00:34:32

in and I'm like I get I don't have the stamina all the time to keep making these funny videos. I've got to stop. So I just stopped and just went back to beauty and my life as a founder and makeup artist. Um, so but I also when I did that I just got so I didn't really Tik Tok was overwhelming. I didn't really understand it. I wasn't a native on it. I'd spend most of my time on Instagram when I was on social media. But then I have like force myself to get onto Tik Tok and you're actually going

00:34:03 - 00:34:59

to love it. Like I love Tik Tok now. I would spend equal amounts on both apps. So if you are if it does feel overwhelming, one of the apps, if you don't understand one, you just have to spend time on it to get to know it and you'll get it. You'll understand it. Yeah, that totally works. And I think um to your point, being native to a platform is totally different from downloading it and looking at it observationally. So like being objective versus subjective like if you can really you know understand how these platforms

00:34:31 - 00:35:26

work, how people use them, what they expect to consume on it. Um it makes it a lot easier to make content. What about when people are stuck in this mindset of like well you know the only reason I'm doing it is to generate leads. I don't care about the platform. I don't care about the people on it. I hear this all the time like we just want to generate leads. How do we make it work? Do you think that that's a broken mindset when approaching platforms? The Tik Tok consumer, the people who are consuming

00:34:58 - 00:35:58

that content are so savvy. They're so savvy to anything that is inauthentic. They will not care if you're not there for a reason to entertain them or to give them something valuable to have a laugh at um or to learn from. They're not going to care. You have to actually be on there and understand what's happening. And and it is pretty fun, most of it. Um, but I just think if you're just on there for business, I'm not sure it would translate. Okay. It's kind of like if you look at Hollywood

00:35:28 - 00:36:29

right now, you know, movies have become so blueprinted and formulaic that it just seems like all they care about is a box office hit versus building a film that challenges culture. Like if you look at this as a a micro version of that if you're just making films to sell tickets at box office, it's going to make far worse content than if you're like, I just want to tell a fantastic story and obsess over the details. I know this isn't film making, but in many ways, shapes, and forms, you're begging

00:35:59 - 00:36:50

for people's attention. If you can't entertain them or educate them in an interesting way, they're just going to swipe right on past. Yeah. And I think on uh that's why advertising on Tik Tok is a little harder and it takes some solid understanding of what content is going to work because they're already, you know, I said it's very hard to capture their attention for more than one second. You're gone. You're swiped past if they you haven't caught their attention. As soon as they feel the ad,

00:36:24 - 00:37:26

they're they're even less interested, you know. So, your ad has to be really um attentiongrabbing and yeah, be really well thought out. Now, if founders are using content to build a fan base in order to, you know, build a business and sell a product, there's nothing wrong with that. What would be your advice on how to approach that in order to influence sales? What are some things that someone should be conscious of? Because I think it's a bit of a catch 22. If you're trying to sell products,

00:36:55 - 00:37:54

people don't want to buy them. Um, but if you can show up and be valuable, people are more interested in buying products. Do you have a recipe or a framework of of how to think about that? So, for me, I think it's a little bit easier because it's makeup and the colors speak for themselves in a lot of ways. Like, it's and they're not super expensive and people will watch a video and go, "Oh, pretty color. I'm going to buy it." If I was selling skinare, however, that would be completely

00:37:24 - 00:38:33

different because I have to convince you that you're going to benefit from it. So I just think making sure that when you are designing the content, it's not about you or your brand so much in terms of sales. It's going to be addressing an issue or a concern or a fear that your customer has. So, you know, um a lot of my content that works to actually drive sales at the moment is um do you need to update your look? Do you feel like your makeup needs a little refresh? like it's just

00:37:59 - 00:39:04

capturing their attention and actually um resonating with something that they would actually think themselves. So it's more customer ccentric rather than product ccentric and brand centric in terms of sales. That's the stuff that will convert the stuff that the audience will respond to and relate with. Yo, my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding. I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day. So I branded myself. Then I started my agency, Rival. And hired a team of branding mavericks

00:38:42 - 00:39:41

hellbent on creating brands so good that they'll make your competition their pants. So here's the thing. You want your brand to go viral and Rival makes brands go viral. That's why we're offering you a free 30inut branding session to get an expert's opinion. If you don't believe me, the proof is in the pudding. Here's what clients have to say about Rival. Rival is trusted by brands like Nutrition Warehouse, Light My Bricks, and Voomie. So, if you want to absolutely smition and make your brand

00:39:11 - 00:40:05

go viral, hit the link below and book in your free 30-inute branding session. Now, what's harder? Being authentic or being consistent with your personal brand? Being consistent. It's It's hard. Well, when you're running a business, there's so many other things going on. And for beauty, you've got to you got to face the camera and you've got to look good as well. So, that kind of takes some uh a lot of energy sometimes because, you know, if it's I don't know, you've had a really busy morning with

00:39:38 - 00:40:35

your kids and then you get to work and then you're like, my hair is like not perfect and you've got to present yourself in a way just to get that energy. I think the consistency of posting I'd love to post more content than I do to make more content than I do because I've been take my time's been taken up with so many other aspects of my business. I really that's what's next for me as I grow to build a team that's going to take over all the bits that are not necessarily my strengths so that so

00:40:06 - 00:41:05

that I can focus on content and product. Now, people at the beginning often get overwhelmed with where do I start, how do I start, how much, like there's this wall that people kind of have to break through at the very beginning. Um, what's your advice to those that are contemplating doing this, but are like, I need the perfect plan to start. I think make a plan for your content to post once a day on Instagram that will then also go to automatically to Facebook. to post multiple times a day

00:40:36 - 00:41:28

on Tik Tok because I really think if you're just starting out, that's what you want to be doing. You want to be getting as many eyes on um on your content and as many opportunities to go viral organically and have certain shoot days. So maybe spend one or two days shooting to get the next two weeks worth of content done. Then you've got it done and you're ready to post. It's not like you're having to shoot every single day. That's what I find works for me because like I said, there's some days I just

00:41:02 - 00:41:56

don't want to I don't want to have to look pretty in front of a camera or show someone how to do something like so we all do shoot days get a bank of content and you'll be surprised like this is short form content the majority of it. Um the longest video will be you know a minute and a half 2 minutes but mostly they're 30 to 45 seconds. So you can actually get a lot done in a day but you have to I think planning is important. Do people need a videographer or editor to be able to start doing this? Or would

00:41:29 - 00:42:30

would they just start using their iPhone? Their iPhone and a little tripod and you'd be fine. Any tips around software or editing or anything else that you try to do? Um, I just use Cap Cut, but I think good sound is important. So, we have like the little lapel mics when we're shooting with the team. Um, and then for beauty, lighting is so important. So, if you don't have any lights, you just need to face a window and put your phone up on the window. Get one of those little suction things. You'd be surprised how many

00:41:59 - 00:42:49

content creators we work with that we've gotten from another genre that are fashing fashion content, but their beauty content is terrible and you have to teach them. Beauty is actually a really um it's really important to understand lighting because you face one way and your makeup will look shocking. You face the other way and it'll look amazing. So understanding lighting is pretty important when it comes to interesting. I never thought of that. Like when you're on a set for film,

00:42:25 - 00:43:25

there's a lot of lights, but when you're out in public in daylight, it's probably totally different. Yeah. So, it's really it's really important with when we're looking for content creators that that we see examples of beauty now because it's not everybody understands it. That makes sense. Are there any fears of your two brands becoming too dependent on each other? So for example, your product range uh is very much attached to you as a personal brand. Um do you have any

00:42:55 - 00:44:00

fears around like okay they're too attached to each other and they need each other to survive sometimes? Well, I'm at the point in my business I'm at a fork in the road. Do I keep this going as a lifestyle business and just keep going or do I grow it and try and sell it and think big picture because there's so much potential both ways and one way if I'm going to grow and sell it um we definitely need to establish the personality of the brand as a team and a brand rather than just me the founder.

00:43:27 - 00:44:30

So, if that is the route that I am going to take, we're gonna have to um maybe make it about the personality that's behind the brand comes from a team. Yeah. No, I I would understand that. And I think that takes time. Um but however, I find that one of the fastest ways to grow a brand is by attaching your face to it. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, people people want to be dealing with a person and communicating with a person. And I think after the pandemic, people were really willing to support local

00:43:59 - 00:44:57

businesses and to support founder businesses. I think that's why everything popped off for me because people were more willing to support local and support yeah women in business. And what's been the biggest shock to you from your community about what you've done in the past six years? I think that the only really big surprises I've had is product popularity. Some products I think are going to be the next big thing and no one cares. And then some things I think are just going to be, oh yeah, that that'll work nicely

00:44:28 - 00:45:32

with the rest of the range. And they are extremely extremely popular products. Like we made this um body glow and we're a makeup brand, so it's the only body product that we do. And I just thought, oh, it'll be nice for summer. It just could not keep in stock. It was just going out the door. It was viral. Everyone was buying it. And my normal demographic was sort of 25 to 45 and even the 18 year olds love the body glow. Like it was just and you know right up to 65 year old women everyone loved it. It was just

00:45:00 - 00:45:48

that now is still one of our bests sellers. So I think that that I think sometimes I think I know everything and I'm like yeah people were like this but I don't. You've got to put it out there and see how it goes. Even recently, I just said this and I tell these stories to my audience as well because we've got a popular that's a popular product at the moment. It's the mystery boxes. So, we've put in a bunch of products. It's amazing value, but you don't know what

00:45:24 - 00:46:12

you're getting. I would never buy a mystery box. I never pay money pay $120 and not know what I'm going to get in it. But one of my friends said to me, I love buying mystery boxes from brands. You should do that. And then my sister said it. And then another friend said it and I said, why do you like them? She said, "I just like not having to choose sometimes and you just get it and it's exciting and then if you don't like something, you've got such good value, you just give it to one of your friends

00:45:47 - 00:46:50

or um so anyway, I did it and they have been extremely popular. They've sold out three times. We're on the last few of the third batch now. Um, but just like absolute game changer. And then mystery boxes. Mystery boxes. And the average order value has jumped from $65 to now $95 because these mystery boxes are $120 a pop whereas my other products are 40 $40ish dollars. That's crazy. So, you know, you think that, you know, I you know, I was going, "No way. I'm I'm not doing mystery boxes, but I didn't know.

00:46:19 - 00:47:16

I don't know. We need to do mystery boxes. What the hell?" Okay. So, so take me through that. like explain that because the AOV is so important when it comes to e-commerce. Everyone's always looking at getting that from what I understand over $85 is kind of like, you know, the golden ratio if you can get it. The psychology behind that's interesting. Why is it that you think that the mystery boxes are really taking off? The value. So, they're basically getting hundred and something dollars

00:46:48 - 00:47:40

worth of products for free, but they don't get to choose it. So, it's great for us to move product variants that aren't as popular. So, what happens with the content? I've tested all our products as paid content to see what converts and there's only two or three that are really high converters. So, we don't advertise any of the others. All our ads are those three products. So, what happens is people come on the site to buy those products and then if they add a lipstick or a liner, they've just

00:47:14 - 00:48:08

gone on and had a look and added a couple of extra things. So those kind of things we call C-grade stock. It's not that they're not good or not beautiful products. They just they don't convert in ads and they don't move as quickly. So anything that we're sitting on um in high quantities will go, okay, we we only just started doing this now. Putting them into the mystery box. So these people are buying them for $120, but they're getting $320 worth of products. So they're getting a

00:47:41 - 00:48:21

lot of stuff free. Um, so it's the value that's making them work and it's also not putting shitty products in there. I think some brands just like put like their old stock and stuff in there. Um, so you're not trying to pump out old stuff. You're trying to give valuable stuff that they might not. It's just that we're sitting on. So it's good for us because we're moving the stock. We're not losing money on it. We're making money still when we're not making as big

00:48:02 - 00:48:54

a margin as we would have been if we sold it individually obviously, but um it's moving it. People are getting such great value and it's giving us cash. So they've just been so popular. I think the value people have been organically posting sharing what they've been getting in them as well. Um so it's good. That's exciting cuz I guess it's like an unboxing thing. It's like what did I get? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've got people comment and the comments are really good. Like I felt like it felt

00:48:27 - 00:49:18

like it was Christmas and um just really positive comments and people know that they're limited. Like they're going to sell out again. they'll sell out in the next few days, but they know that they're limited and then all these amazing um comments on the content. So, there's this real sense of like urgency. One of the sizes that sold out ages ago, we've just got one size left. Um so, yeah, there's a real sense of urgency about it and mystery and I don't know, people like it. Yeah, I can I can

00:48:53 - 00:49:36

imagine that there's a mix of things, right? Because, you know, the mystery thing, it feels like you're going to strike a deal. Like, no matter what, I'm getting more value than I paid. So Ellie when she shops, she's always like kind of go shopping. She'll like add to cart and she knows by abandoning it, she'll get the emails and she'll get the deals and all the rest of it. So she likes the dopamine hit of getting a deal. So there's that, then there's the mystery,

00:49:15 - 00:50:02

then there's the unboxing, then there's the surprise, and then if I don't like it, I can just give it to my friends. So it's a win-win and you're not losing. Yeah. Yeah. Now, when you think about the community building behind the brand, because it sounds like when you're doing something like that, you're in many ways building a little bit of community around a product or a bit of a buzz or trying to get people to try different products. How important is building community from a brand's perspective,

00:49:38 - 00:50:35

whether it be ecom or your personal tutorials? I think really important. I think that even I'm, you know, originally started posting on Instagram, so it was when the content had to be polished and the lighting was perfect and everything and I think that I did get a bit stuck in in my ways thinking that content needs to be planned and filmed on a certain place with a certain light, but my sister who works with me, she's like, you just got to film like film them putting the mystery boxes together and talking about bits behind,

00:50:07 - 00:51:06

you know, dayto-day and all of that stuff. And I think you just have to you really have to inject personality of the brand and yourself to for the community to even begin to build because do you you find that when you're looking at social media like you're seeing what goes on behind a brand like the team talking and everything it really makes you way more interested. I I've had this revelation like in the last few days and I was sitting down and going through my Instagram feed and just asking myself

00:50:36 - 00:51:32

the question would I consume this content and the frank reality of my answer was like not really. Um and which led me to the question of like well what would I consume which is a hard thing. It's like if I wasn't me what would I want to see from me and it's like well what does my life look like? What does a project look like? what does my team do behind the scenes? Uh what's my routine? What's my what's it like to be me? Like I would I would want to start asking these other questions, which then

00:51:04 - 00:51:52

allowed me to go, okay, well, who's doing this really well? So then I went down the rabbit hole and I was looking at Steven Bartlett's content and I was like, this is exceptional. I can't stop consuming it cuz he's just kind of like, this is what my life's like. This is what it's like behind the scenes. And then I felt reinvigorated to make my content all over again. And it's actually easier because it's the real you. It's the real me. So, so rather than trying to fabricate the perfect

00:51:28 - 00:52:22

piece of content, I've realized that I really just want to start documenting what I'm doing as I'm doing it. And I think that's a lot easier for business owners and founders to digest because they're already busy and someone's going to find what you're doing interesting. Like packing m mystery boxes like that's interesting. Like film some content for us now. No, but that's that's that's fascinating and I think we can we can absolutely do that for you. But like okay, let's dive

00:51:55 - 00:52:54

into community a little bit here. So, everyone talks about community, but like what's the real difference between just someone who's following your content or someone who's becoming like a real fan. They feel like they're your you are their friend, like they're they're trusting you. They're trusting what you say. that just building that authenticity and it starts through content obviously but then it's it it's also uh what you're doing as a brand how you're doing it like I have thought

00:52:24 - 00:53:16

about this so many times like why why am I doing this and I am genuinely I know I'm selling something but I my passion is to help people and I really do and I remember hearing you know you hear listen to podcasts about businesses and like you you know you have to have a reason what is the reason that you're doing it and I think a lot people who aren't really clear on it. Might think, "Oh, that's so cliche or what does that even mean?" But don't do it unless you really know why you're doing it. Don't

00:52:50 - 00:53:42

do it just to get rich or to sell a product because I just don't I think the journey will be a lot harder. If you relax into it and you really are passionate about what you're doing and there's a reason behind it. Um the community will will come. I would agree. I think content creation should be fun and that's why I felt reinvigorated recently which was like I've kind of resurrected the fun component of content creation and you know you have to kind of always stay in that place cuz if it's

00:53:16 - 00:54:09

not fun why even do it it's it's just then a chore. Yeah, and that's the other thing. If it does feel like it's too much pressure, I think I think just have your days where you film content that you plan you've planned to make x amount of content, but then if there's something that's going on, just do it. Just shoot it. Just take a video of it because usually those are the bits of content that go the bet that perform the best are the ones off the cuff when you're

00:53:43 - 00:54:40

like, "Oh, this could be cool. Let's do this or we're on our way to do this." like yeah it that that's the stuff that works. So this more off-the cuff spontaneous stuff is seemingly performing really well for you guys. I think just that whole customer nurture and nurturing the community. Um you know even our EDMs they're not always product focused. They'll be they'll have a tutorial in it how to do do this. Just on all different avenues really building that community so important for a

00:54:10 - 00:55:11

digital brand. Um we've only just got physical retail in a door in a door beauty. Um but before that for the last you know five and a half years we haven't had any physical retail. So I think it's really important to have popups and activations and customer focused um events not just for the brand awareness but for the customers to have that experience. They don't get to go into, you know, they used to go used to go into David Jones and you've got you meet a person that you actually talk to

00:54:42 - 00:55:48

and you touch and feel the products. It's you've got to think of it so differently if you're just selling things virtually. With building the community, you've covered the content creation stuff really well. Um, what else can you do as a e-commerce store owner to then help percolate or cultivate or get a reaction out of your fan base? Um, I think things like paying it forward or supporting a charity or inviting your customers to go somewhere. Um, collaborating with other brands that

00:55:15 - 00:56:12

have really good community as well. Doing pop-ups with other brands can be good as well. Pop-up stores, I think, are really great. Um, they can be kind of, it depends what level you're at if you're going to do pop-ups or not. Um, you know, you could even work with an expert on something and hold a a master class or a workshop like I do. Now, with the strategy being valueled first, do you think that slows business growth down? Like you said, like you're trying to be a creator and then you're trying

00:55:44 - 00:56:40

to build products and run an e-commerce store and build a team like this valueled approach. Do you think this inhibits you in any way? No, I think that that is the thing that's constant, the valuable content. That's what keeps people hanging around the the customer retention. But that def, you know, when I'm talking about these mystery boxes, I'm saying you get $200 worth of products free. like we're selling it, but it makes the times when you are doing that sale so much easier and not like I'm doing this

00:56:12 - 00:57:18

every day going buy this and save this and you know it just makes the whole thing feel more authentic and feel nicer. Something I heard you say recently which was your inner [ __ ] watch me do it. Yeah. Which I thought was interesting that there's this energy there. Um, where does that come from and and how has that enabled you to push through hard times? Um, I don't know where that comes from. That's just me. I've always been like that. And I always feel like my whole career I've chosen the path of most

00:56:44 - 00:57:39

resistance. Like I I have I just have been in these I've been at the start of everything. Like I was at the start of the e-commerce brand. I was at the start of like being an influencer. Even though I didn't really want to be an influencer. I was just doing my thing. You get called that. And there's always been these challenges. Um, and then e-commerce when I started my brand, it's like, "Oh, another influencer brand." Like, [ __ ] off. Um, but when when people, it's just in me. I think that's

00:57:13 - 00:58:19

just me. People tell me I can't do something. I'm very like um persistent and I'm if I've got something I want to do, I will do it anyway. Um, so that has gotten me where I am now, like a quiet, calm, humble confidence. And that kind of like if someone says you can't do it, I'll just think in my head, watch me. If you had to go back in your mind and pinpoint where that really originates from. I think it's from when I think it's from growing up and never being criticized. If I feel like criticism is

00:57:45 - 00:58:37

like the antithesis to that kind of go get them. As a kid, you know, criticism and I just, you know, my wildest dreams I would express to my family and no one ever said you can't do that or the only your family really champion like go for Yeah. And the only time that they made things difficult for me was when I finished high school and said I wanted to be a makeup artist and they were like no, you're going to go to university. So I wasted a year and their money doing a year of uni and then ended up being a

00:58:12 - 00:59:18

makeup artist anyway. And look, look where it led. Um, but yeah, I really feel like that has gotten me to where I am now. But now I am a makeup artist completely winging it in business, like a business that's going so well. And this is the most stressful thing time in my entire life. just the responsibility of managing these amounts of money and teams and trying to grow and keep all the plates spinning when the business has kind of outgrown my knowledge and I am catching up. So I've had this last 6

00:58:44 - 00:59:53

months where we had we just grew so much last year. My last six months have been spent trying to just maintain efficiency and profitability and catch up like really rapidly learn all the things I need to know to keep it going. I meet a lot of people that aspire to build a business. Um, and you can often tell where there's something slightly missing regarding the belief or the grit or some kind of sense of determination or I'll prove you wrong kind of energy. Where do you really summon that from?

00:59:19 - 01:00:12

Because if people weren't creating resistance for you in your early years, fantastic. But like still, I meet so many people that yet don't have that grit in them. Like where is that idea what they really want to be doing though? Cuz I think if you really want something badly and it is your deepest desire to make that happen, then they will have it. I just think maybe those people are doing something because they think they need to do it or they want to do it. you know, it's really or or maybe

00:59:45 - 01:00:58

it's just they haven't spent the time to really figure out why they're doing it, what their purpose is. What's your purpose that you felt that's pulled you through the difficult times as well as the good ones? My purpose is to I think just being a girl growing up in like you know my teenage years in the early 2000s when there was so much pressure on being super skinny and looking certain way and um not fitting in sometimes. I think that my purpose is just helping everyone to look and feel

01:00:21 - 01:01:24

great and just go girl, you know. Yeah. And obviously this is very important for women because you know there's culture is shifting all the time like obviously um even if you look at like pop culture and movies and music different body types come and go different looks come and go. How important is it to you that you can help women identify what it is that makes them beautiful and not needing to fit something else? Yeah. So so important. And also embrace aging. That's a lot of like a lot of the women

01:00:52 - 01:01:53

that uh really resonate with our content is are women that have struggled like they just don't relate to some of the content that's being put out by the bigger brands because it's all 20 year old models or movie stars or supermodels or yeah I think it's really important to have relate people content that people can relate to and when you're selling makeup content that people watch and think I could do that I could wear that. Do you think that in the totality of things that the beauty

01:01:23 - 01:02:31

industry is somewhat arai with preying on insecurity. I think it was and I think that it's not so much anymore. I think it's getting better. What makes you so confident that the industry is going in a better direction? I mean, I think that the it things are diversifying the people that they're using. It's really feeling more inclusive. I think a lot of brands are doing that really authentically. I think many brands are doing it inauthentically. Like it's a bit of like tokenism, you know, not they're doing it

01:01:58 - 01:03:18

because they feel like they have to. But I feel like the brands, the newer brands, not the big giants, have really made inclusive makeup, inclusive content, um that just has really changed the industry. And I feel like it's a lot um it's just on in a like it's feeling a lot more authentic. Um you know go back 10 years it was still mainly supermodels and um actresses in all their campaigns and everything and now the beauty industry is using more real people. Yeah. Yeah. And it and it doesn't feel

01:02:38 - 01:03:36

like so out of reach. Yeah. Unattainable. You need to have obviously your content needs to be aspirational to an extent but aspirational and relatable. Does it get to the point where everyone starts to say the same thing? There are brands who are doing it really authentically and doing it well and then there are a lot of brands that are just doing it because they feel like they have to. And I think that you can tell um yeah so there's defin it's like greenwashing. Greenwashing in the beauty

01:03:06 - 01:04:06

industry is like ri and so bad like everyone saying that your product is eco-friendly and 98% natural and like there is just so much of this BS. Like no one is out there putting toxic chemicals in your makeup. All brands are doing pretty good job. There are some that may use questionable ingredients because it's cheaper, but I feel like every brand now, that's why I'm so reluctant to like say clean beauty because of course my products are clean. Like they're made from really beautiful

01:03:37 - 01:04:34

ingredients, but just the brands saying clean beauty like what does that mean? People are doing the greenwashing is out of control. And just the all natural that it's brainwashed people thinking they need all natural. All n all natural makeup is [ __ ] It is like it'll last you two. It's like food. It's made from food. It will last you two weeks. It'll start to smell funny after a while. They all have some sort of preservative in it and brands will put in it a one that's

01:04:06 - 01:05:07

there's some preservatives like a like parabens people are cautious of because they've been linked to breast cancer. Um, but these studies even in that like I so they'll use other uh preservatives and say paraben-free, but they've just got another version of the same thing in it. And then natural makeup brands saying all natural makeup brand and one of the most questionable ingredients is the man-made colors. So they've been linked to um upsetting your hormones and all of this stuff. So then other than

01:04:36 - 01:05:39

that, there's not that many questionable ingredients. There's some things that are derived from petrol and um but anyway, that's one of the most questionable ingredients. And then there's these brands saying they're all natural, but they they have red lipsticks and bright pink lipsticks. You cannot make those colors naturally. The only way is by a an ingredient called um oh god, carmine, which is from red beetles, so crushed up beetles, and put it in. So then your product isn't vegan. So, I've

01:05:08 - 01:06:00

seen these brands saying they're vegan and they're 100% natural, but they sell bright pink and bright red lipsticks. So, I look at that and I'm like, how? You've either got beetles in there or man-made colors. And then I look at their ingredients and they'll say beeswax or chundula wax or um and you know, all these beautiful ingredients, but none of those ingredients are the color. So, on their websites, a lot of them do it will have all the ingredients for a clear lipstick. And if you have

01:05:34 - 01:06:23

I've emailed them and said, "Can you just send me an actual ingredient?" or gone into a shop and looked. They have the man-made colors in it. So, they're not all natural and they actually have the thing that one of the things that people are sus on and they just don't put it on their website. There's it drives me crazy. This is a whole another conversation, but there's so much greenwashing and even from customers, we do see people on social media, I should say, saying, "Is it all natural? Does it

01:05:58 - 01:06:55

contain chemicals?" Water is a chemical compound. Like chemicals are toxic in a dose. It's all down to the dose. Water is toxic at a certain dose. You will die if you drink too much water. So what does that mean? Has it got anything that's toxic in it? Well, of course it doesn't. Anything in there is at a certain dose and it's made very scientifically that it's perfectly safe. There's just so much fear-mongering and there's also so much greenwashing like saying like a

01:06:26 - 01:07:26

lot of the recycled packaging people say oh this is made um so if I if I may cuz I think this is really interesting so like you have green washing you have recyclability then you have vegan take me through them like one by one so we'll start off with green washing and then we'll go through them like little so green washing is when a company will portray that their product is a lot cleaner and more natural than another product when it's actually not. It's just in the wording like uh

01:06:56 - 01:07:46

people don't like sulfates in shampoos because they irritate the skin or sulfates in cleansers because they can strip the skin. But then you'll see a conditioner or a skin oil that says sulfateree. Sulfate is like put in shampoos to make it foam. You would never put a sulfate in a skin oil anyway. So there's this kind of greenwashing where they're really trying to make customers perceive that their product is more natural. put sulfate in it anyway. But they're saying sulfate

01:07:22 - 01:08:14

free because it sounds good. Yes. Because people it's like a in the fearongering. That's one of the must if it's sulfate free even though they don't know what it means. Yeah. And then um the well the vegan thing is just not containing any products any animal products. But you said with that it's difficult to get certain colors without doing that. Um yeah. So you use man-made colors and most man-made products a man-made color just just for reference. Well it's a synthetic color. It's

01:07:48 - 01:08:46

something that's manufactured in a lab. A bright vivid color. Most makeup has it in it. There's nothing wrong with it. They're completely safe. But there are a couple of those that are a little bit risky. They have so you just as a makeup brand owner, you wouldn't put those in your products. Um, so there's yeah, some there are definitely some ingredients that you would avoid and that you keep out of your range, which I do. And the vegan thing, I think that's pretty straightforward. Like it's pretty easy

01:08:17 - 01:09:24

not to have animal products in your range, but if you are all natural and vegan, you can't have any bright colors because they come from man-made colors or they come from the carmine, the Beatles crushed up. Poor Beatles. Yeah. And then the other thing that I've seen is um brands talking about their packaging. And so I've seen brands that make refillable refillables, right? So, you get this big thick plastic bottle and then you put the refills in and out, but the plast it's it's even more

01:08:50 - 01:09:52

plastic. Like, it doesn't make sense to me because you've got two plastic bottles and they're trying to convince you that you're saving plastic by putting refills in. I don't know. I just keep seeing all these. And then there's the ones that's the plastic that's made from cane sugar, but it actually molecularly is plastic. So it is derived from cane sugar but doesn't break down any easily any easier. Yeah. So look this is just you got me on a tangent now. The last one you were mentioning which

01:09:21 - 01:10:10

um actually I heard in conversation recently with Ellie we had this conversation in bed and she's like yeah this this makeup brand I'm looking at uh it's edible which probably means it's better for my skin right and I was like yeah that totally makes sense like if you can eat it means it's probably better to be absorbed. So, we had this like discussion around like that totally makes sense and she bought into it and then she added to her cart and she checked out. So, when it comes to like

01:09:45 - 01:10:54

these not gotcha moments but these like new things where it like oh it's new it must be better you know do do you think that there's this whole concept of like the new is better catchphrase is better is really driving the beauty space. Um yeah, I think that there's a lot of new It's really hard to reinvent the wheel in beauty because what works works. So there's people coming up with new um trends and new products that are very trend driven that I know won't have any longevity. They'll be a buzz for a

01:10:20 - 01:11:22

little bit, but not then they don't work as well as like for for example then if if you say okay like were there makeup brands that were always vegan but now saying that is a new marketing tactic whereas before it never really had an effect. I don't think that there were there probably were like beeswax used quite commonly and I don't think they would have thought about it as much before. However, clean beauty, there's always been clean beauty brands. Like, I know that there's some brands that will,

01:10:51 - 01:11:51

just to make it cheaper, use worse ingredients, but there's always been a lot of clean beauty brands around. And all of these products are formulated by some of the best cosmetic chemists who use really good, high performance man-made ingredients. And man-made ingredients can be, you know, like actually really beneficial for your skin. and um and they're just more stable. They'll have a shelf life. They last longer. They the texture is better. I just find with something that is actually all natural, it in terms of

01:11:21 - 01:12:16

makeup, it won't last as long. It'll go off. It'll smell funny. The texture is not usually there. Sure, there's some natural products that are amazing. Um but a lot of things that people say are natural makeup, they're actually not. So, in many cases, the product could be worse. So for example, you might buy it, use it once or twice, the third or fourth time you use it, month four or five, now the product's useless. You've wasted your money. Especially in skinincare, natural uh a lot of natural

01:11:48 - 01:12:44

skin care products people have found have actually affected their skin negatively. Um things like essential oils, which are all natural, they're actually extremely potent. And while you might not get a reaction to them straight away, if you're using them for 6 months or a year, you can actually start to get things that people don't realize are linked to what they their natural products they're using like uh you can get rosacea or dermatitis. Um things like that will develop and sensitivities just being super

01:12:16 - 01:13:24

sensitive, your skin becoming sensitive. And they don't realize that it's they've built up this intolerance to the essential oils that are in things because they're so potent. And essential oils are actually put in skincare as a natural fragrance. So it's it a lot of the time essential oils in skincare are a marketing ingredient to say oh it contains sandalwood or or to make it naturally fragrant but they're actually really potent on your skin. So that is a situation where all natural is not

01:12:50 - 01:13:52

necessarily better. So these marketing companies or these brands are saying this product is better for you for this ingredient. Meanwhile, it's worse. Yep. Yep. Definitely. Is this common knowledge in the beauty world? I think a lot of people know about it. There's just this is one thing that social media has exacerbated. There's so much misinformation and so much fearongering around ingredients. Like I see this with sunscreen at the moment. There's so much going on with that and it's just really

01:13:20 - 01:14:14

um it's really sad to see so much misinformation and people becoming so, oh, I can't use this or I've got to use something natural and they're just believing the [ __ ] that some brands are feeding them. So, these marketing employees are becoming divisive now. People are changing their entire belief systems and their entire um routines based on these buzzwords. Yeah. On on one hand, it's good because it's keeping brands accountable. they have to kind of you have to live up to a standard and

01:13:48 - 01:14:40

you know keeping your products high performance but great ingredients. But on the other hand, yeah, it's just there's so much misinformation out there. What would be a rule of thumb around your opinion on what people should look for and what they should stay away from when it comes to beauty products? I think it's more about the brand. Like I think it's about going with a brand that you trust, researching a brand. There's actually really good online resources like Paula's Choice is

01:14:13 - 01:15:00

a skincare brand, but she actually has a beauty encyclopedia. So, you can go and look up whatever skincare or makeup or ingredient if you don't know what something is. And chances are when you're reading an ingredients list, you're not going to know what it is. I look at the back of like some of the makeup products Ellie has, I'm like, I have no idea what that stuff even is. Yeah. Well, like um yeah, the they just have different scientific names even if they are the natural things, so you

01:14:37 - 01:15:37

won't know. So, you can go on Paula's Choice and she will she's got all the ingredients ranked and it will give you like a category red, yellow or green to avoid. And there's so many ingredients um and so many websites where you can actually look these things up, but I don't think there's anything you should like I'm not going to talk about things that you should specifically stay away from. But um I think that you can do your research and actually look on some credible websites.

01:15:07 - 01:16:08

Saying that if you just Google it, you might get some noncredible websites. But Paula's choice is a really great one to go and look, search your ingredients, and she will tell you whether it's a red flag or it's totally fine. Okay. Now, on this topic around, you know, this product's better for you because it's got sand or wood in it or what have you, are we trusting content creators too easily? Yes. Have you seen those ads, girls promoting tanning oil? This drives me mad. No. Tell me. Look. Well, there

01:15:38 - 01:16:27

there's companies that make oil for young girls to go and bake themselves in. I've got a teenage daughter and one of her friends was staying with us and they came home with tanning oil like like you used to do before everyone knew about skin cancer and slip slop slap. So, there's been a real the messaging there and I noticed just a couple of weeks ago the slip slop slap and something else. There's another word on it now, but that campaign is back and it needs to be because the young girls, my

01:16:02 - 01:16:53

daughter said to me, "Oh, all my girls are all my friends are obsessed with checking the UV index every day." And I was like, "Oh, what? They don't want to go out when it's too high." No, they want to go out and roast when it's high. The the teenagers that slip slop slap messaging hit us, but it hasn't hit them. And they're buying from influencers that are posting about this tanning oil, and it's just to get a tan. And it's so dangerous. It should have

01:16:27 - 01:17:25

warnings like smoking does, especially when it's UV and the implications that that can have on your skin and if you're exposing yourself daily over a long duration, it can be it can be quite difficult. And if we're trusting content creators too easily, like how do we know what to trust and what not to trust? Cuz if brands are playing against these tactics and creators are playing against these tactics all with the incentive of generating income for themselves, how does a consumer know how to better

01:16:57 - 01:17:51

navigate these territories? Um, I think that the consumers are pretty savvy already, but I I think the younger generation, the ones that are more impressionable and probably will get misled, but I think most most consumers are pretty savvy. I don't think that there's many dangerous ones like that example that I just used. Um, and a lot of the time, I think with fashion and beauty, you're seeing the product anyway. Skincare is a lot harder. Like I said, you'd have to you have to convince

01:17:24 - 01:18:18

them that there's science behind it and it's going to be beneficial for your skin. But makeup and fashion, you kind of see a product and decide that you you want to buy it. So yeah, I think there's definitely an element of people being paid that kind of cash for comment things, something they don't necessarily believe in, but sometimes they stand out, right? You see someone has taken the money and you're like, why are you posting? And if someone's building a brand right now, is posting one piece of content a

01:17:50 - 01:19:00

day enough? On Instagram and Facebook and YouTube shorts, yes. On Tik Tok, no. How much should someone be posting on Tik Tok? I think two or three times a day. Ideally three times a day spread out. Is there any benefit to doing that on Instagram and reals as well? Um possibly, but I haven't tried it. I don't know. I just um there's for me there's really peak times and if I post out of those times on Instagram, the content will just flop. So we we always post at our highest traffic time of day.

01:18:26 - 01:19:17

Right. So then spreading out across Instagram just doesn't seem to hit. It doesn't seem to work for us. Yeah, we we actually post stories throughout the day, but a good strategy with stories is that you post all your stories at one time of the day. You know, they're there for 24 hours. For some reason, if you spread them out and post them all through the day, you don't get as much reach. So, you post them all and let them go for the 24 hours. I didn't know that. Yeah. It diminishes your reach.

01:18:52 - 01:19:38

Huh. I thought it was better to do it every two hours. Well, that's what I thought. and we were posting during the day, but we actually took some content creators and influencers on a trip this year and they were talking about it and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to" and they were like, "All of them said that is exactly what happened." So, so if they've got something they need to post and there's still something on the story from the day before, they'll delete it

01:19:15 - 01:19:59

like in the last few hours, you know, still hanging in there, they'll delete it and they'll post everything and that will get them the most reach. And we've tested it and it definitely works. Yeah. Interesting. I'm going to test that. Yeah, cuz I thought here I am being a noob out here trying to every two hours I'm going to put something up there. Yeah. Well, you we'll have an event or we're doing something special that day and we would be doing, you know, post through the day. So now we just take all

01:19:37 - 01:20:20

the content and we'll post it all at one time when we've got it all. Oh, I'm going to try that. I didn't know that. Yeah, it really does help the reach for some reason when it's all posted together. But how much? Like you're talking about 20%. I'm talking about double the views. Really? Yeah. Okay. Now, a few last things here around the brand building piece because it seems like you're obsessed with this. You're always trying to find another way to give value to people. As as someone

01:19:58 - 01:21:02

who's leading a brand, do you ever have the fear of having too many products or expanding too far? Yes. Well, I've definitely learned that I need to I'm learning as well with the business side of it and the demand planning and everything and I've definitely [ __ ] that up. Like last year we were doing massive months and we did all of our demand planning for the busy season like Christmas and everything based on those months and then with the massive scale our our meta ads became really expensive

01:20:30 - 01:21:27

and we just lost efficiency. So we had to scale back a little bit and but at the same time our revenue we scaled back our revenue a little bit but we still have to pay for all this manufacturer have put down the deposits for all the raw ingredients that's all being made. So, it really affects cash flow. And I just think I have learned that, you know, like I said, we have these hero products to really focus on those and expanding the colorways within those hero products and maybe not focusing so

01:20:59 - 01:22:00

much on making sure I've got all the colors and all the things cuz it ties up your cash and you've got colors that aren't fast movers and they're sitting there and it's money that could be had. So, I'm definitely still learning and I'm not I don't think that having a massive range is the right idea. I think having those best sellers and still doing new launches every 3 months is really good for us. So, we do limited edition things and just things to really re-engage our existing customers.

01:21:29 - 01:22:27

That That's clever because I imagine that, you know, people just get tired of seeing the same thing. So then having a range to roll through and being able to do deals and combos and packs, this gives you a ton of advantages. So my my midfunnel audience, so uh do I need to explain what that is or Yeah, if you just want to explain like your funnel system, that that would be great. So your midfunnel audience is the customers who have somehow engaged in my content. So, they've watched a video for a few

01:21:58 - 01:22:51

seconds or they've followed me or they've followed the brand or they've been at one of the pop-ups and signed up to our email database. They're all people that are within that funnel but maybe um they know about the brand or they've purchased before. They're in the funnel and so usually they're high converting. You know, you get the most uh bang for your buck through advertising to your midfunnel because they know your brand already. They know you. They trust you. They've bought from

01:22:23 - 01:23:20

you before. But I haven't I've had the same products because my foundation range is really expensive and it's taken a really long time. I've got to have at least 10 shades. The first one's going to be 10 shades. It's got SPF in it. It's taken a really long time. It's going to come, it's going to be launched at least 6 months later than I would have liked. Um, so for a good 12 to 18 months, I've been promoting those few hero products through all our paid advertising. And I do feel like my

01:22:53 - 01:23:47

midfunnel, they've been seeing this stuff for like the last 12 months. So it's it means we're losing on those existing customers because those existing customers probably have bought those hero products already. Um so you really need that fresh product to give to your adi your existing customers because um chances are they will be interested in what you've got to offer and what you're putting out there. And at the moment I haven't got anything to offer them. though other than what

01:23:20 - 01:24:14

they've already bought. So mystery boxes. Yeah. So then you're running these same like hypothetically you're running the same ads on the same products that people already know about. So then you're potentially burning ad ad money which could then be you know better constituted towards hey we got a new product a new range. We've been just really focusing on top of funnel like new brand new customers which are more expensive. Um but that's what we've had to do until we get something really good

01:23:47 - 01:24:50

for the existing customer. bottom of the funnel hardcore uh customers. They get to come to these cool events and hang out with you guys. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very clever. Now, regarding the future of ecom and beauty, do you see that the forecast is going to be heavily oriented on Tik Tok shop? Yes. But it's still not available here, is it? Tik Tok shop. Yeah, I think it's they're anticipating I mean it's live in the US for those that are listening in the US but like for Asia pack uh I think it's

01:24:18 - 01:25:11

September this year. They told me last July that it was going to be ready by July. So we were ready to go. We had a strategy because I think I actually believe that this live stream selling is going to be huge. It will be the next big thing. So if you're not preparing for it, be ready. And for the people who aren't confident in front of the camera, you better get confident because you'll be on the front of the camera for an hour straight live. Um, but I we do lives already on TikTok just to warm us

01:24:45 - 01:25:34

up. And you actually make sales from it. You offer them a code while you're on there to get 20% off or um so we have been dabbling in it. But yeah, I think it will be really popular. And I actually go down the rabbit hole of Tik Tok lives and I watch these um the people that sell wigs. they've got a wall of wigs behind them and she'll go, "I'm trying to try on number 25 now." And she'll put on this like amazing wig and then she'll go and I'm trying on number 81 and people are just ordering

01:25:09 - 01:26:09

as you do it. Like it's really interesting, but I really think it's going to be huge. It's huge everywhere else in the world and makeup. Uh there's brands that have become household names from Tik Tok shop. I'm seeing this happen as of the last maybe 18 months. Um, do you do you still think this is kind of underground or do you think that this has now got a foothold? Yeah, I think it's I think it's got a foothold. Do you like there's brands that are just killing it now in the UK that are made

01:25:38 - 01:26:39

on they they just popped off on Tik Tok shop? I I think that Long Gone are the primary consumer base looking through SEO on Google. They're now just perusing social media. Well, Tik Tok for anyone under 25, I'm going to say, or a Tik Tok native, they don't use Google. They don't even open the web browser. If my daughter wants to know how to cook something or how to do something or fix something, she searches it in Tik Tok. Like, Tik Tok is its own search engine. That's why, you know, when you post your

01:26:09 - 01:27:04

videos and it gets the what it thinks the subject of your video is, it's really important that it's picking up on the right subject of your video because it's a massive search engine per you personally. In conclusion here, like what's a quote or a mantra that you've carried with you throughout your career uh that you wished all those listening to this would immediately implement? That life begins at the edge of your comfort zone. I really have like so many times in my life. It just makes you so

01:26:37 - 01:27:37

much better at putting yourself out of your comfort zone every time you do it. And I think I've done that taken risks and or things that don't feel safe. And more often than not, it's rewarding and it makes you braver to do the next thing. Same. I guess it's along the lines of fortune favors the brave, but I like life begins at the edge of your comfort zone. Push yourself to do something that might seem a little bit scary, but if it pays off, it's amazing. What's a door that you need to kick in

01:27:07 - 01:28:13

personally to take your business to the next level? Um I have just kicked in that door honestly for me to scale is having self-belief uh around the business side of things and financial side of things just um I haven't you know when you have limiting beliefs about what you're capable of and that all just got blown out of the water and here I was and I just sort of like I can't I'm not I don't know how to do this. I'm not cut out for I don't know what I'm doing. Like I'm, you know, I

01:27:40 - 01:28:38

tell people I'm winging it in business, but I'm really not. Like I actually know what I'm doing and I should have trusted myself all along. You know, you go and you do coaching and you learn all these things and they all help, but really I knew what I was doing all along. You know, I've I'm been I'm smart enough. I'm capable enough. I just didn't really believe it. And I think that that when when I lost a bit of efficiency with massive scale, which is very common. I know a lot of brands that have

01:28:09 - 01:29:08

scaled and lost efficiency and had to scale back a little bit. That to me, I didn't realize that that was normal. Um, and that to me really made me feel like I'd [ __ ] it up or I'd done something wrong and I'm never going to be able to get back to where I was. Um, so I've spent the last six months really learning a lot and really learning how to manage my cash flow, really learning uh my demand planning and not to be sitting on so much stock. Like at the moment I'm sitting on so much stock. Um,

01:28:38 - 01:29:37

and to invest my money into leading areas of my business that will make sales, not areas like uh warehouse stuff as much like although they're important, not be focusing on that kind of like warehouse space and as much spending as much of my cash flow on those areas, should be spending my cash flow on the areas that make money. It seems to me that you're always learning. You're always trying to scratch at the next idea or try to be an early adopter in many ways, shapes, and forms. Do you

01:29:08 - 01:29:55

think that that's what's led you to the success that you've had is always jumping on a trend or not a trend but like a a new emerging technology early? Yeah. Like riding the wave and just going with it, you know? I always thought I always thought I was pretty like this is what I want to do in my career and I'm going to be a makeup artist and then I want to like work on TV and do the covers of magazines and that was it. And then at one point my career was like I was being flown to the

01:29:31 - 01:30:14

south of France with a skincare brand to post my pictures online like and I remember saying to my husband, "What am I doing?" like cuz I was making more money. I became was easier to make money from doing the influencing type stuff than makeup at the time. And I said to him, "What am I doing?" He was like, "I don't know. Just ride the wave." And so I just rode the wave and made the made the most of it. But I wouldn't be here now if I didn't. And just stuck to like,

01:29:52 - 01:30:49

"Nope, I'm only doing makeup jobs and fashion and TV." So yeah, I think you've just got to be open to riding the wave and adapting. I think yeah, you're definitely kicking in some doors. you're living as an example case of what can happen if you're, you know, using your personal brand together with your company and obviously um you're passionate about this and you've been able to build, you know, something substantial that's meaningful to people and it's really good to see. A thank

01:30:21 - 01:31:10

you. Yeah, thank you. We've loved having you and it's been a pleasure diving into, I guess, content creation and e-commerce and what it takes to to grow a company in the beauty space and understanding some of the products and the claims that happen. But um yeah, you've definitely brought it today. We appreciate your time and it's been a pleasure and um I'm sure we'll have you back in the future again sometime soon. Oh, thank you. After my next breakthrough. Fill us in. Fill us in.

01:30:46 - 01:31:05

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I hope I haven't rambled too much. No, you've been fantastic. It's been It's been a pleasure. Thank you. [Music]

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