The Secret Ingredients Behind ButterBoys Cookie Empire | Sophia Athas

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[Music] Culture has changed around food and desserts. And it's not just your chocolate bar from the 7-Eleven. It's an occasion. Everyone knows what a cookie looks and tastes like. Really, everyone's had a cookie. Who hasn't? Sophia Ays is the creative mind behind Butterboy, a cult cookie brand known for its bold identity, sellout drops, and national following. Now selling over 2.6 6 million cookies annually. Butter Boy has grown one of the most loyal communities in Australia. >> The product is king. If it doesn't taste

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good, it's not turning into a cult, no matter how cool the brand is. That's the first part. The cookies taste really good. I don't even have a sweet, but I crave the cookies. Now, you have done some fun campaigns. One of which is the cookie notice stunt where you faked parking fines on cars. How does that build the narrative of the brand? >> People aren't going out and spending $250 at a fine dining restaurant. It's more bite-sized. It's the experience and the occasion that is attached to that as

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well. >> What do you think it is that separates a brand from like cult status and never quite being cool enough? how a simple item, the humble cookie, can create such a hype around it. At a time when everyone's screaming about being healthy, people will still eat the cookie. And I tell you, it's not healthy. There's nothing healthy about that cookie. >> This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio. Now, shifting gears slightly into something that has become a bit of a cult sensation here, especially in

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Sydney, is what you guys have accomplished with Butter Boy. Now, before we go, I guess a little bit deeper into that story, looking at the greater Australian market, I think, you know, post events in 2018 to 2020, I remember hearing a lot of conversation around hospitality is dead, food venues are dead, everyone just wants to eat from home. But we've actually seen a an absolute like reccalibration of that entire space. >> Yeah, >> it's projected that the Australian food service market is projected to grow over

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116 billion USD. What does that mean for a small business operator in the Australian space that's looking to find a way to grow themselves? Yeah, it it's a changing sort of landscape I think especially off the back of co um I feel like in all senses the workforce has changed labor the labor force has changed with um I suppose when the borders were closed. I think we all forget how much of an impact that had on just recruiting good people to be behind the counter in these venues and serve

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customers. It sounds so simple, but I feel like that was the biggest hurdle that hospitality had. And now, I mean, the world's opened back up and Australia is welcoming and all these incredible workers and people that um have skills as well. pastry chefs are really hard to hire. Um, and often very particular skills are needed for these sort of jobs. Um, I think in that sense changed a lot. But then you've also seen I mean there are franchises like Goodman and Groz. They're coming in and

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completely changing the game with especially fast food. So I think when people say hospitality that is really broad and not doesn't necessarily relate to every sort of segment in the categories i.e. fine dining is changing a lot. I almost think in a negative way. Whereas you've got these deli outlets, um, sandwich shops that have glorified the humble sandwich, which is really cool, fish and chip places that have had a revamp. And then you've got your fast food, which is definitely where the butter boy sits, I

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think. >> Where do you think this is coming from? Because as a kid, I remember growing up, you always had the, you know, fish and chip shop down the road, but our market was dominated by the big franchises like KFC, McDonald's, Red Rooster, Burger King, um, you know, some of our national ones like Domino's, etc. What do you see happening now? Cuz it seems like people aren't really gravitating towards these large um, American incumbent brands coming into our market. It seems like a

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bit more localized, a bit more like the the culture around hospitality is completely shifted. >> I think people are using food and drinks as almost a part of their lifestyle and personality. It's like their brand identity in a way. You can be that girl that drinks a iced oat matcher and you're taking a photo of it and that's part of your your vibe, your look. There's a whole aesthetic associated with that. Crazy. >> Yeah. We have a bubble tea sensation here. There's a group here at Rival.

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They go out and get bubble tea every Wednesday together. It's a thing. Yeah. >> And it it that's the hard part, I think, and the biggest challenge >> to a brand for a brand like Butter Boy is how long does the trend and the hype last or can you make it last past the the crazy line out the door? Um, another great example is Yochi. I'm not sure if you guys have seen, but >> there's it's like a nightclub in there at 10 p.m. >> on Sorry in Sar Hills. Like young people

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are lining up to buy $13 worth of soft serve yogurt. That That's crazy. If we had said that four years prior, I mean, the closest equivalent is your McFlurry from Mackers. Like, no one's taking photos with that. It's it's a yeah, it's a changed thing. And I think combined with the cost of living and people aren't necessarily going out and spending $250 at a fine dining restaurant, as we were just saying, it's more bite-sized. It's the experience and the occasion that is attached to that as

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well. >> Now, when you say occasion, like from a branding playbook, what do you mean by that? The occasion being I mean you can make the occasion. I'm convinced of that. But I feel like with a product as simple as a cookie, the beauty of that is everyone knows what a cookie looks and tastes like really. Everyone's had a cookie. Who hasn't? >> So it's not a new concept you're happening to educate people about. It's actually how can you dress up this very boring simple butter, milk, sugar. Yeah,

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>> essentially >> it reminds me of when I was a child and the family would go to Blockbuster on a Friday night and you would get the stacks and you would get the chalk tops and you would go, "Okay, I got to pick three movies with the yellow sticker." Is it a sense of it's that kind of >> nostalgia and I was talking to my husband Jim who is actually the butter boy. Also, I want to preface that butter boy is a huge team. I'm not the sort of brain behind it. There's there's many

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layers to this. It's sort of just a nice angle to have the context of like the brand building side of this. The the other side is the production and the making of the products, which as we were saying before, the product is king. If it doesn't taste good, >> it's not turning into a cult no matter how cool the brand is. So that's the first part. The cookies taste really good. I don't even have a sweet tooth, but I crave the cookies. So I think yeah, the occasion is the cookie occasion. And really that could

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be as the first thing you do in the morning where you you're eating your cereal cookie that we've about to launch or the last thing you do at night or a midnight snack. And I would challenge people to ask who hasn't had a cookie, >> right? So it could be someone going on a date. It could be someone taking their daughter or son out. It's it's an interpretive occasion, but it's an occasion of joy and fun. >> I suppose the equivalent is like getting an ice cream, right? It's that sort of

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thing. And Yoi's now sort of taking that and flipping it and making it an even more intricate occasion with customizing flavors. And you've got that side of things as well, but I think the cookie sort of sits in that as well. Mochi is another one. Bubble tea. Um, yeah. Yeah, >> desserts. Desserts. Fast food. That's that's the space. >> Now, take me back to, I guess, the very birth of the idea. I know Jim has always been obsessed with making things and cooking and creating.

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Just take me back to the inception. Was it like noticing a trend? Was it a personal obsession with gym? Like where did this really come from? >> It's a good question and it feels quite blurry to me because it has happened over so many years. cuz I think people sort of forget that that we and to give context, we were dating when we were in high school and went through like leaving together um and did all of high school together. And then when we were out of school, sort of going into university, he started just baking as a

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hobby, weirdly when we were 18. And it started with muffins of all things. Okay. >> Muffins, like your basic tray of muffins that he would bake in his mom's kitchen, and we would go to this local cafe every day. Basically, we became friends with the people there, the owners there, who are still friends of us, ours today. And we sort of thought maybe we can start selling these muffins. Six muffins, that's all it was. They just tasted really good. And that then the the hype around these really good

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muffins started spreading and we would every Friday, Saturday, Sunday deliver carloads and trays of muffins around Sydney. So we'd go all the way up to Chhatzwood down to the northern beaches. Um, I don't think we had any places in the east, but And then I would take photos on like a digital camera and then upload it to Instagram like straight away of all the flavors. >> Yeah. >> When was this? >> 2012. >> Wow. So, you're taking photos on a digital camera for content.

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>> Yeah. >> Funny now that I'm thinking about that. >> It's so strange to think about. >> I'm like, how did I even get it onto the phone? There's a lot of admin there. Um but yeah that that started happening and at the time I also we were both studying law and I hate to be that person but we we really hated it. We were so bored, so uninspired. Um so this was I suppose his outlet of doing like creating something. And then mine was I would sketch up little logos and change the Instagram

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handle and sort of all the colors and the way that we were photographing. And we had to change the name a few times actually because of trademark issues back then. We had no idea that trademarking was even a thing. Ironic because we were studying law. But we got caught up with other people saying, "Hey, you can't use that name." um until finally we landed on Butter Boy and that that felt really just simple. Also, he was basically a boy at that stage and dealing with a lot of butter. Um he then

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moved into the garage of his parents' place where he bought an industrial oven and housed it in there because we had to get threephase power and then it went to a smaller commercial kitchen in North Sydney like not close not not far from here. Um and it sort of kept growing. Muffins was still on the menu at that stage as well. Um, and back then also it was a girl called Grace who is an absolute gun. She was in the kitchen just cooking, baking, they were coming up with flavors. Um, she still leads the

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wholesale team today. So, yeah, >> it's pretty cool. Um and then from that it was actually during co that we realized people like baked things and people are lining up for something as simple as a croissant or a coffee. They'd also line up for a cookie. So that was when the idea sort of started forming around the wholesale accounts were growing but the retail experience was something that actually had a lot of legs as well. Um yeah and so then the logo came and that was also really

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quick. To this day, we still fight over what the right logo is versus what the right the right red is. I'm actually not sure on the answer if I'm going to be really honest. >> Um, but yeah, the the shot the opening of the Manly Shop was the I think the moment that it became this is a this is a big brand. People want to come to have this cookie. >> Clients want it all. a slick-l looking website that can run their business and scale with their success. Wix Studio is built for that. Plan out your client's

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settings and reusable assets lets you turn one page into hundreds. Design smoother and deliver sooner. Go to wixstudio.com. What do you think it was that the brand added to the mix? Obviously, you have to have a good product. Obviously, people need to try it and go, "That was good. I want to get it again." What What else do you think the brand like adds to how it feels or to how you explain the occasion or to how you can kind of I guess share the story? Yeah, I think there's a few

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things like there's a few sort of angles to that. When you really step back and look at the product, it's a cookie. And what other cookie out there on the shelf do you recognize because of the brand? Not Not many. It's you bake cookies at home yourself. That was traditionally how we ate cookies. It was you would make the dough and then bake it and there was no brand associated with it. Um the sort of competitor to that was biscuits like arnets or your classic Anzac cookies which don't even have a brown associated

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butterscotch. >> Exactly. Or whatever. >> Your finger like the butterscotch fingers, your fairy bread cookies. >> Um >> yeah, a lot of biscuits that had brands attached but not a cookie. If you go somewhere like New York >> or other places in Europe, yeah, like this is kind of already a thing. But for those that don't have full contacts here in Australia, we didn't we really didn't have like a baked >> goods like establishment that was kind of the the talk of town.

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>> No. And I think also baked goods you associate with bread or pastries. Cookies are neither of those things. And it's also not a cake. cakes are another brand in itself I suppose. But yeah, the the next part to that I think is we spent some time in the states and they definitely had brands popping up that were these confectionary items or these takeaway joints that were just dessert bars. Um Milk is a great example. Not sure if you've seen that one. >> I'm not familiar with it. No. Um, it's

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owned and founded by this amazing woman. I think her name's Christina, but she came up with all of these crazy desserts, milkshakes, ice cream, soft serves. Um, and sort of made the occasion more than just an ice cream, lots of ice cream shops in Australia as we know. Um, but nothing sort of past that really. M because you've you've struck a chord between being, you know, something that felt nostalgic, something that had a sense of occasion. The product is fantastic. And like you said,

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like even when I'm walking to work in the morning, I'm haunted by your cookies because there's three particular cafes I'll choose on any given day. Whether I'm coming in Yeah. Whether I'm coming in from the gym or coming in from home and your cookies are always in the window like taunting me like, "Come on, just have one little bite." And I'm like, "No, I can't." Um, but you guys are in what, 600 different locations and you have four retail locations as well.

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When you look at the brand and how it's scaled, because as I understand now you have 2.6 million cookies >> thereabouts sold per year. Yeah. >> What's the hardest part of like going from, >> you know, uh, his mother's garage >> to where you guys are now? I mean that's a question Jim and Grace would have a lot of context on the bakers of just scaling production because getting to those numbers you realize you have to invest in machinery and automation of your production which at

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the start baking six muffins for a tray of six muffins was very easy for one person to do but all of a sudden now you're relying on massive supply chains of butter, flour, chocolate is a huge part of the sort of production run. And I think also something people underestimate is when you're dealing with food, you're dealing with supplies of all these raw materials. And at any given time there could be I think it at one point all of the chocolate supply was um impacted by cyclones and really bad weather coming

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out of South America. So that was a huge like change to the way that people were ordering and you had to batch order chocolate months ahead of schedule, which I think when you're biting into a cookie in this like cool sexy packaging, you sort of forget that there was so much that went into that little piece of sweetness. Yeah. >> Right. You got your sugars and your syrups and the chocolate and the dough and the flour and the eggs and all these things coming from all these different places. It's just a nice balance of

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trying to make sure you have the supply and you can scale to >> scaling to that. But also the other side is it's a perishable good. You have to be able to refrigerate these cookies. They don't last forever. So keeping up with production numbers and then being able to actually get rid of them in a productive way so that you don't have waste, you're not over capitalizing on raw materials, you're not over capitalizing on certain cafes that won't take it or having a empty bench at the

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end of the day in the shops is the goal. You don't want leftover stock. So all those things that come with building a business to to serve the consumer is sort of dressed up and and hidden by a cool brand I would say. >> Now when you talk about the packaging, the design, the color palette, the font and all those things that kind of come into play, how much do you think that that has helped you amplify the brand? Because I imagine if you had one location and it was a bit of a buzz, like how much did the brand allow you to

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really hop into the second store, the third store, and and then become like a, >> you know, a statewide sensation? >> I mean, I I feel like the answer to that is you just you have to keep innovating. You can't stay sort of stagnant in the flavors that are offered, but also the way that you're marketing. So now with our marketing calendar, we're always thinking about additional items. Is it the cookie tin um that has your smaller bite-siz like novelty pieces in it that we brought out

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for Christmas last year? Um or is it the cookie cereal? Is it cookie doughs that you can take home, put in your fridge, freezer? um an Easter egg during Easter that went really well that we did custom. It was all chocolate, but in the inside you cracked it open. It was cookie. Always bringing it back to the cult core item of the cookie, but what are the extensions of that to keep acquiring new eyes, new audiences, new demographics as well? The cereal is a big hit with kids because they can just

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put their hands in there and just eat it. Um, but then your really basic chocolate chip cookie is still the number one bestseller. So, I think it's a balance. Yeah. >> What do you think surprised you the most about your audience and how they've reacted to the brand? >> How how a simple item, the humble cookie, can create such a hype around it. And also at a time when everyone's screaming about being healthy, people will still eat the cookie. And I tell you, it's not healthy. There's nothing

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healthy about that cookie. So yeah, I I think people are still out there to have to indulge, to have that sweet treat, that delight, that sort of naughty moment in their day of I just want to enjoy this with a coffee. >> Is it you're at work in the CBD, let's go get a butter boy cookie. It it's almost like a ritual for a lot of people, which is a nice sort of thing to recognize. Um, but yeah, I I feel like that's been the surprising thing. >> Yo, my name is Dane Walker and I am

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disgustingly obsessed with branding. I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day. So, I branded myself. Then I started my agency Rivalionary >> and hired a team of branding mavericks hellbent on creating brands so good that they'll make your competition their pants. So here's the thing. You want your brand to go viral and Rival makes brands go viral. That's why we're offering you a free 30inut branding session to get an expert's opinion. If you don't believe me, the proof is in

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the pudding. Here's what clients have to say about Rival. Rival is trusted by brands like Nutrition Warehouse, Flight My Bricks, and Voom. So, if you want to absolutely smash the competition and make your brand go viral, hit the link below and book in your free 30-inute branding session. >> Now, you said something there about ritual. So, like when people are buying a product, obviously if they buy it once, that's fantastic. That's great marketing. And in our space, it's said

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that if you can sell it twice and three and four times, that's great branding. Now, when it comes to branding and how you get the repeat purchases to the point where people will have you in their calendar as a part of their ritual, how much did the branding really enable that kind of behavior in the market? >> I think there's a few angles there. Creating the ritual through is it just the same cookie, same flavor, same scenario that you're you're buying this every day. looking at the customer and

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knowing who your customer is is so important. I think we touched on that in our first episode of they're they're king and you have to sort of understand where they are, how they're behaving, how much money they're willing to spend on the product, when they're willing to spend it on the product, how frequently they're willing to spend it on the product. So, a guy or a girl in a suit in the middle of the CBD who's getting it 3 days a week at 300 p.m. is really different to the mom on school holidays

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buying three bags of six packs. And so there's there's like an art to I suppose that repeat and repetition, but the ritual being quality and consistency and quality of every time you go, you're going to get the same satisfaction. And then with those extension products, like making it a gifting occasion. I mean, dressing up cookies in this beautiful box with this beautiful bag automatically feels luxury even though it's a cookie. >> Cuz you've done something really interesting with that. And um I'll even

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um I'm just going to ask our producer to bring me one of these boxes over cuz there's something special about this. Like um Ellie, my partner, had um she's seen your stores and we've bought a bunch of cookies there before, but the way that this packaging comes together. Thank you, Cam. Um, and this is this is insane. Like, this is such a cool way to unpack a cookie. And as you open this up, it's with a magnet and then inside you've got these, you know, beautiful taglines and everything. Like, talk us

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through like what the idea behind this kind of packaging was and what this did to elevate the brand for your customers. >> Yeah, I mean, yeah, sometimes I forget how like heavy duty they are. That's a lot of cookies. That's a lot of cookies. >> That's heavy. Um, this is definitely something Jim was so adamant on when he was growing the idea in his mind was I just want them to be served in this elevated way. And automatically you go from uh what you usually think of as a cookie

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of you're either baking it at home, what we were just saying, off your baking paper or if you go to your local cafe, you just get it in their paper bag, their tongs, you put it in, done. There's no sort of sense of brand identity. So to actually house a very simple cookie in a beautiful box that is as heavy duty as I would say a designer pair of shoes or handbag. >> It's like it's like it's like a Hermes like box or bag cuz when you get it you're like I want to keep the box

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>> which do to be honest. >> Um and it did take to be fair it did take a lot of time to get the right supplier for the packaging. it it's all done like specifically around the embossing debossing the color is really hard. We're dealing with purple and red which are quite iconic but when you start to go deep into like brand application that can show up really differently on all different surfaces. We're finding that now with when the team is opening shops, things like signage and sort of

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wayfinder, even materials in store, how do you pick the right purples in the marble or pick the right reds for the neon sign? >> Because people, I think, forget when you're dealing with print, it's quite risky. >> Yeah. But when you start to do something physical, cuz you can control a hex code on a website or on social media, but then when you're applying it to something that's lit or something that's in a dark corner or a box made out of paper, it's different.

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>> That's what I think also you you forget and sort of underestimate when you walk into a designer shop like a Prada and you see their iconic beautiful mint green everywhere. It is absolutely custom. every single panel, every single collateral that Prada puts out, they've custom produced that. So, how do if we're starting with this beautiful box, it's a high standard to set. You sort of have to keep going with that. >> And you've picked two of the hardest colors >> cuz as I understand it, like red from

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our experience with packaging is the hardest color to get right. >> It's really hard. >> Purple and orange is second. For some reason, the hot colors really >> aren't easy to play with. And you've picked a lilac, which is really hard to get right. >> Yeah, lilac. And again, I think it it's also part of that brand identity of it's meant to be fun and it's not meant to take itself too seriously. At the end of the day, the name has boy in it. It's a

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butter boy. It's not a butter man. It's not a butter woman. >> It's a boy. Like it he's young. He's cheeky. He's He doesn't really care. So, let's talk about it a little bit because I think mascots are something that are often misunderstood in branding. We've done a handful of mascots for different brands and a lot of people are hesitant to use a mascot or introduce that concept of a character. >> Hit or miss. >> Yeah. And it's easy to get wrong.

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>> Yeah. >> Now, with the mascot, like what do you think that has done for the brand? How has that helped >> with the the character persona? I think it personifies that that face that a boy has when they bite into a cookie. And I can say that because I'm a boy mom now. I do too. >> And I can tell you my toddler looks like that little kid that we drew back in the day. It was actually my uncle that he's a graphic designer and incredible with drawing and illustration. And I came to

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him with just a little sketch on paper, just a shitty little sketch, and I said, "Can you vectorize this face for me?" And this is what he drew. And >> oh, he did this. That's exceptional. >> Yeah. And >> it's super super cute. And it just like >> we armed in art about the angle of the tongue and the should it have a comb over and Yeah. I feel like I should get the original files up because there are a few iterations of it, but I feel like it landed in a place that

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it it just personifies that little boy eating a cookie or he's just eating a cookie. I think it's clever because when you think about like brand archetypes and how much it can inspire how a brand feels like you know we'll just use a famous example like Harley-Davidson is the rebel >> and you know Google is the sage and Red Bull is the jester you know when you think about these archetypes it's like when you go to a family function you've got like the cheeky uncle and the sweet

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auntie and people typically pigeon hole themselves into a character when a brand does this in your case. It's childlike, it's playful, it's endearing and charming and kind of innocent. >> Has that really made an impact on how people think about the brand and why they purchase it? >> I think yes. But also going back to if you actually strip the product of the branding at the end of the day it's a cookie and the little boy can enjoy it but equally the grandma the grandpa anyone can enjoy the

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cookie as much as that. I think the boy is used as a sort of symbol of the attitude around the brand. But as I said before, I think it's a little bit it can be really risky for a brand to bring in a character because it could create gender biases even. That's something that we always talk about. I'm like, "Oh, how ironic. It's a purple beautiful packaged box, but it's a boy. That that also doesn't necessarily relate. But I think that that's a cool and good thing.

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>> It's a ju position cuz you would say >> the lilac is quite feminine and the font is quite flamboyant and then the word boy denotes like >> you know a specific skew on gender. >> Exactly. >> How did you how did you tangle with that? cuz we we have a lot of discussion in our internal conversation around brand naming and if a brand sounds too masculine or sounds too feminine there's >> how do you get the balance right? I I mean we had a marketing meeting

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earlier and um the team and I were talking about a re like restrategizing Tik Tok for example and we're coming up with all these different campaigns and part of it was leaning into that boy mentality but there's that risk of it being too gendered and that's I think a scary territory to start going down when you're in 2025. And at the end of the day, we're selling a cookie. It's just not that it doesn't need to be that complicated. But >> I also think the way that we've been

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able to expand off, as you said, the flamboyant text, the cute little character, the colors, the way that the merchandise is designed, it doesn't feel too masculine to me. I feel like it's quite ironically feminine. >> Yeah. And it balances nicely because I think when I looked at the brand, it didn't feel too feminine or too masculine. You kind of hit that sweet spot in between. >> It's not meant to feel masculine >> is what I want to say. >> Okay. Now, when you um talk about

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campaigns, because this is kind of your wheelhouse, like activations, brand campaigns, when you take a visual design like this and a personality like this, how do you make sure when you activate it, it feels native and true to the brand? I think it's it's so easy when you're so close to a brand, which I always say to our other clients when they use Butter Boy as an example, that it is such a unique scenario because my husband and I, I can read his mind. He knows how to get the best out of me

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or when I've not done it correctly or to the standard that he needs. And that that's really unique in a creative scenario. found a scenario. But equally, when you have a simple format, i.e. a simple product like a cookie and not many guidelines that restrict you from how you can then execute it. For example, if we do an event or popup or open a shop, it's pretty clear in our head what that should look like and what materials you should use and >> without over complicating it. if

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>> yeah 100%. Now with the packaging and how much that has elevated the branding, I would uh suspect that having a physical retail front can also alter people's perspective. There's uh a girl on our team, her name is Jax. She can buy it from a wholesale cafe like down the street, but she decides to drive 40 minutes across the bridge to go to a location to buy the same cookie. >> What's happening there? What what what do you think that the retail um front has done for the business?

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>> I think the retail brick and mortar is your sensory experience. So, we're we're trying to create these environments where you can see the cookies being made. If if you have been into any of the shops, you can see the mixers. You're you're watching the bakers literally rowing rolling the dough the dough making the cookies putting them in the oven and it comes out fresh on a tray and then it's put on the shelf. So I think that as a theatrical moment for the customer automatically ignites

00:37:53 - 00:38:57

taste. You can hear it happening. You can smell it. The smell is a massive one. If you could capture that smell just put it anywhere. Oh yeah. >> Makes people happy. >> Yeah. Your your location in Chhatzwood when whenever anyone's in there and just to describe it to our listeners, it's like in a subway tunnel. You you can't get within 100 ft of this uh you know brick and mortar cookie factory without just getting smacked in the face by it. >> Yeah, >> that's part of it. And it's definitely

00:38:23 - 00:39:51

on purpose. So having that sort of all sensory experience and then being baked fresh, I think people forget or underestimate how good a cookie tastes when it's oozing, melting, sort of warm inside as opposed to sitting in a plastic packet in Wworth's or on the shelf. It's a very different cookie. Um, so the retail experience has allowed us to bring what is a sexy box and bag into a space and then you've got added layers like merchandise sitting on the shelf. Um, coffee is now part of the offering

00:39:08 - 00:40:25

at certain locations which I think also adds appealing to those matcha girlies, the strawberry, oat cream, almond frappes, all of the different sort of drinks that you can have with your cookie is another addition um to the experience as well. So yeah, retail and building shops is something that we really enjoy as well. I think it's it's a challenge. It's super stressful when it comes down to the pointy end, but deciding how a menu shows up in real life and how the bakers in the front of

00:39:47 - 00:40:44

house people even look down to their uniforms is all part of it. >> Now, you touched on theater and you guys have crushed it when it comes to theater. You've got obviously everything's been made in front of you. You've got the aroma, you got the gorgeous signage, the cool outfits, the charming staff. When you're thinking about this orchestra or this symphony of theater, how much of I guess people in hospitality are missing this magic uh in their business and in their brands?

00:40:15 - 00:41:21

>> I think I I have a bit of tunnel vision if I'm going to be honest. I sort of just I'm concentrating on what we're building. And yes, we look for inspiration and look to competitors, but I'm not looking at other cookie brands to for inspiration. It's actually the luxury brands, the the cool street wear that what they're doing in >> you're looking outside your space. >> Definitely. >> And you're looking at fashion. >> Yeah. And I don't think that's just a

00:40:48 - 00:41:46

butter boy thing. I think to come up with original ideas and build brands that have originality, you can't look at your competitors ever, >> right? What What is that? Because I I find myself doing the same thing as well. Like I'll be working with say a law firm and then I'll point to fashion or I'll be working in fashion >> which sometimes can be jolting >> which can be jolting but it's it's like sometimes like and I think people >> ask this question and they ask us this

00:41:17 - 00:42:23

question often. Have you worked in my industry before? And I tell people we work with like, hey, like why are you asking this question? Because usually the magic >> clearly not >> exactly. No, but it's like the magic sometimes exists outside your industry >> and you can borrow from other industries. >> Definitely. I think that that also goes back to there's many sort of sides and corners and facets of what goes into making a successful business a success. There's production, there's HR, there's

00:41:50 - 00:43:08

finance, there's front of house, there's, you know, all all of those services that go into it. But the brand side I think comes from pushing the boundaries in terms of how can we how can we envision this box which probably should have a designer shoe inside it have six cookies and people will understand that that's part of the value exchange and proposition and I think that that has worked for butter boy. So yeah, >> now when it comes to scaling quickly, because it seems like you guys have come

00:42:30 - 00:43:47

out of nowhere and you're popping up locations left and right and there's obviously demand in wholesale for people to have your cookies in their storefront windows, etc. Can a brand grow too quickly? >> Definitely. Yeah. And that's scary. That's definitely something I think also in this day and age. I mean, I think, and we touched on this in our earlier episode, people come up with ideas really quickly. They think it's groundbreaking. Sometimes it is, and then they skyrocket, and their one goal is to

00:43:08 - 00:44:30

sell, IPO, whatever it is, like exchange hands, move on, like cash out, move on. But I really think the passion behind baking the best cookies and opening the best shops is still the main priority. And and if we can keep doing that in a unique way for all the different demographics around the state or Australia, then that's the goal. It's the scale and the the growth and how fast that has happened. It's because I mean Jim and his team are so passionate about what they're doing. It's not

00:43:49 - 00:45:09

necessarily because there's this opportunity or finish line. It it's we're riding the wave. >> What's the danger of starting a company with the intention of doing an exit as soon as possible? >> Well, the fact is most of them don't, right? I think people I I actually had a founder the other day say um who was wrapping up one of his businesses and he was saying, "Isn't it funny how you always go you you go out there designing these products thinking, "Oh, there's going to be a payday. This

00:44:30 - 00:45:39

is this is the most groundbreaking idea I've ever had. Everyone will eat it up." But it's such a harsh reality when people don't. I also think there's a lot of copycats out there. So, market share starts to become harder to acquire. Um, and the fight for the customer is is hard. It's not necessarily Butter Boy isn't necessarily now the only cookie on the shelf. Um, especially through retail and and wholesale. But yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz you and I get this question a

00:45:05 - 00:45:51

lot, right? where you meet a founder and they're like, I got this groundbreaking idea and then I'm sure during the workshop you ask them the question like why are you doing this? Where do you want to go? How big do you want to get it? And there's usually and often times like oh I just want to like scale this thing, get 100 million bucks and then like Git in the Bahamas. Wouldn't that be nice? >> Wouldn't that be nice? But I hear this and a part of my soul dies cuz it's like

00:45:29 - 00:46:43

>> yeah, >> oh you should be doing this cuz you love it. >> Yeah. I don't I don't necessarily like that answer. I think you have to be so passionate about something. That's and it's hard work and it doesn't happen overnight. It's so cliche to say that, but going back to the founder story of Jim baking trays and muffins 10 years ago, over 10 years ago, that that sort of is the writing on the wall that it takes a long time to get something to a level and it takes a lot

00:46:05 - 00:47:19

of money as well. You have to be able to invest in good suppliers, good staff, equipment. Um, good packaging. Actually, a funny story, not a funny story. At the time, our packaging was sitting in a storage unit. It actually all went up in flames. There was a fire. And that was a big like moment where everyone realized how valuable and how much the packaging meant to us because it just >> When did this happen? >> Years ago. Like a long time ago. >> All the packaging up in flames.

00:46:42 - 00:47:54

>> Yeah. But that's another part of these sort of fastmoving goods businesses that people forget about. You need to be ordering bulk stuff and where do you store that? How does it arrive? Where do you receive it? Do you need a forklift? Does it come in pallets? Where is it going to sit? And ours unfortunately just went off in flames. >> Um but we got it back. Here we are. The boxes are still >> running around Sydney. um on the packaging as well. It's a really interesting dynamic between expanding

00:47:18 - 00:48:33

wholesale, which you have to maintain this level of you're trying to maintain this level of brand integrity, but as soon as you hand it over to an account, it then gets put on the shelf in any way, shape, or form that that >> cafe owner pleases. So, if we've got these beautiful, slick shops, but then the cafe on pit street or what wherever it is is stacking 20 cookies deep and they're sort of crumbling over each other. It's it's quite a ju just position of that experience, the butter boy experience,

00:47:55 - 00:48:51

which is intriguing. I want you to talk about the challenges you've had with wholesalers because a lot of people that are in similar predicaments to yourself are oftenimes frustrated by their partners because they're trying to uphold a certain brand identity which is important and we'll get into in a second. But >> what's been the greatest challenge with trying to inspire or influence your partners to kind of stick to a criteria or a presentation style or is it as simple as

00:48:23 - 00:49:33

>> we're going to eventually curate our partners? I think both. I I feel like ultimately what's the goal? Is it to have it in as many as you possibly can or is it to be targeted with those locations? I think it's still in the early days. So, that that's still growing and we're sort of figuring it out. But it's like any brand. It's not just cookies and food. It's clothing brands. when they show up in their own retail flagships, it looks amazing and the experience is

00:48:58 - 00:50:23

incredible. But then as soon as it shows up in a concession department store setting, it it can look and it's really hard to control. Incentivizing um wholesalers about the brand and how good it can look and sort of them being proud to stock it is part of it. So having taking pride in displaying it nicely on their shelf. Um providing them with certain packages and packaging that allows it to be a little bit elevated but not cannibalizing what happens in the flagship store experience as well is another part. But yeah, it's

00:49:40 - 00:50:44

a constant sort of job. It's a full-time job. There's actually people on the team that that is their full-time job to maintain wholesale quality. >> Merchandising is a big deal in bricks and mortar and in retail. And I was watching Jimmy on uh Steven Ballard's DAC and after they'd done the interview. Uh Jimmy was in a I think like a 7-Eleven at like 3:00 a.m. checking out his display and re merchandising it and taking photos and sending it back to his marketing team. How much of like

00:50:12 - 00:51:27

building a brand is just this hardcore curation of merchandising, visual appeal, visual identity, and keeping a continuity of experience. >> Huge. And I think that's part of it's all design and very particularly curated in in store so that when you get to the front of the counter, your photo that you're taking has good light. your photo is coming from an angle where you can see all the flavors. That's all very considered and part of it. Um, and then the added part of being able to see into

00:50:50 - 00:52:12

the kitchen and see the cookies being baked is sort of that more intimate experience of the brand and being able to see that and also take videos. That's where you see Tik Toks go viral. Um the soft serve edition is a massive thing. The flavors there that um have been crazy and people come for initially having soft serve was part of the offering and was meant to be sort of separate to the cookie but then people started combining them together and that was almost like a consumer menu addition. People then wanted what they

00:51:31 - 00:52:33

saw in Tik Tok so they asked for that and now it's on the menu. So yeah, >> which begs the question why it's so important to listen to your consumers and try to play with them, romanticize them and interact if they're demanding something, try to find a way to bring it into the zeitgeist of the brand and so forth. >> 100%. And it's funny that people are now starting to become more aware of the butterboy brand, even if it isn't necessarily in Manly where it started.

00:52:02 - 00:53:04

If you're in Chhatzwood, you're still getting the same core cult flavors, but then we're trying to do additions that suit that sort of demographic and the different localized communities that are begging for flavors and and their favorite flavors as well. So, menu is a huge part of curating it for the customer. Now, take me into the menu because obviously it gets to the point where there's too many things on the menu and people can get what we call the brochure effect, which is too many

00:52:32 - 00:53:38

options, too many different flavor cues and they just never get anything. >> Um, how do you make sure you balance that communicative language around, okay, there's a select amount of items and is that curated? Is it intentional? At what point can you break by having too many options? I do think keeping it simple is good and also from a business perspective recognizing what your core flavors are and and cult favorites are and not over complicating it. There's a balance between having your

00:53:05 - 00:54:13

always on on the shelf and then coming out with your new specials for the month, which that that's driven by social media a lot. And they come out every month and the flavors are sort of oozing on the feed and people get excited. But to this day, the chocolate chip cookie still the bestelling flavor. So, it's a >> as much as you want it to be something else, people could come up with the craziest like concoction, but people just want simple. >> Yeah. Now, with the packaging and

00:53:39 - 00:54:45

people's first experience, I imagine when they're, you know, walking past one of your brick and mortar stores and this cookie comes in this gorgeous packaging, people eat with their eyes first. How much of hospitality is visual experience paired with taste, aroma? Like, how do you make sure that the balance is correct? I think that comes down to, as we were saying, display and then being able to see the raw ingredients go into the mixes and then to go into a oven right in front of your eyes and then come out

00:54:12 - 00:55:22

on a tray where it's still the chocolate's still bubbling because it's hot and then it gets put straight on the on the shelf to be served to the customer is quite unique and pretty awesome. when you're standing in line and that's what you're smelling and when you get to the front it's like you're ready. You're you're like salivating. Your mouth is watering especially the kids. So yeah, it's part of that almost like foodie craze as well where it's norish more is more especially on

00:54:47 - 00:55:38

Instagram and Tik Tok. Um but then still trying to keep it elevated and not too gimmicky. >> Yeah. is is a hard >> because it feels like there's a sweet spot in, you know, the beverage and food and hospitality space, especially, let's say, like around the Gen Z culture because now they're the ones going out and, you know, they've got jobs and now they're the ones, you know, going out on the weekends and buying things. It feels like the way that that culture behaves

00:55:12 - 00:56:19

is super different to millennials or Gen X and how we tend to eat out. >> Now, how have you really started to, I guess, look at it from a commercial perspective? How do you capitalize on that culture and how do you make sure you don't just become a fad or a trend? >> I think it goes back to the cookie being such a nostalgic simple household baked good that everyone is aware of. You're not introducing a new concept, >> right? No one has any bad memories with cookies. >> No, I would hate to think that.

00:55:46 - 00:56:54

>> How could you? >> Everyone's got great memories with cookies, I'm sure. >> But it's like an ice cream. It's very it's simple to understand in your mind and your head. So the risk of it becoming too trendy as a product I don't think is the risk. It's more in the brand side where is it trying too hard? Is it over complicating it? Is it making it feel too luxurious and out of touch and out of people's sort of grasp? I think that's another consideration. No

00:56:20 - 00:57:21

one likes when something feels exclusive really and overpriced. So that's the other part to it. It sort of has to the quality and the taste has to live up to the price point as well. >> But I think with this Gen Z audience, we're seeing food become, as I said at the start, part of people's personal brand identities. It's like what bag you're carrying, what shoes you're wearing, but what drink are you also carrying, and where are you eating is part of it. capturing these moments in

00:56:51 - 00:57:50

photography and sharing them on social media and creating moments with them. So, it's not just something that is their own independent memory. It's a way of them displaying the type of person they are. >> Exactly. And I think also at it's a really unique time in sort of the wider landscape of alcohol consumption's on a all-time low and the younger generation is consuming less and less. So, at 10:00 p.m. at night when they're all hanging out and gathering around, what are they

00:57:20 - 00:58:35

eating? It's like sweet treats, cookies, ice creams, yo cheese, um it's going out for that food occasion. It's not necessarily a drink at the bar or if it is, it's a few and then it's finished with a lining up for a dessert at night. So culture has changed around food and desserts and it's not just your chocolate bar from the 7-Eleven. It's an occasion. >> Now with culture and I understand that when I've uh interacted with your, you know, brick and mortar stores, the staff

00:57:57 - 00:59:02

are very charming. And you know, we go to other outlets like Donut King or Boost Juice and it's like a hungover teenager who's like depressed to be behind the counter and the experience is not always great. How do you maintain that the team are also contributing to the elevation of the brand? >> I mean there's there's a lot that goes into that. I think being part of a growing brand and a growing business is an exciting thing for someone especially someone young. They're seeing things

00:58:29 - 00:59:50

happen really quickly and the energy around being so excited to open a shop is and seeing the founder be really excited and motivated and making it all perfect and every little detail pristine is I would think an exciting experience for the hungover teenager. So >> that that to me is >> sort of part part of the reason why and also part of the language of serve with a smile. It's not that hard to show up in in this way and and be friendly. your customerf facing and that that is part

00:59:10 - 01:00:30

of you're the first port of call other than seeing the glowing red neon head and the box behind between you and the cookie is also the person serving it to you. So it is it's a massive part. >> What do you think it is that separates a brand from like cult status and never quite being cool enough? I think being hyperritical of what you're about to put out there is important. Like in our marketing meetings and sitting around a table, we we don't just slap a design on or come

00:59:50 - 01:01:00

up with a concept and like put it out there. It takes time and you have to sort of have a few iterations to get it right. You also have to pick it apart and go, "Hang on, this is way too overly engineered. it doesn't make sense. Also, what's the point? At the end of the day, it's just a cookie. So, let's always remember that. >> Yeah. >> And I think coming back to your core colors, your core brand values, your core reason why the customer is there then allows you to have in integrity which

01:00:25 - 01:01:24

lasts longer. The one the brands that you're saying are trying too hard. I think again it's a subjective mentality but they're almost playing into trends too quickly and that is quite risky for brands because it gets it goes out of fashion. >> I I think you're right because it's like when something becomes like too conventional or too contrived like if you take you know I'm just going to pick on Donut King. Sorry, Donut King. Like when whenever you walk past one of their

01:00:54 - 01:02:13

stores it just feels cheap. They've got these posters hanging up by strings. The people behind the counter definitely don't want to be there. Obviously, the food's okay, but it's like it just feels like there's no real connection. It feels fabricated. >> I think though on that there's different It's harder for a larger company and brand to be cool and and sort of have a cultural impact at that scale. I feel like they're a beast that them putting out any sort of marketing collateral, it it

01:01:33 - 01:02:31

automatically by default feels really mainstream, >> right? So the brands already kind of in the market, there's a perception around it and they're not really knowing how to shift. the disruptor brands like a butter boy have more leeway to be a bit cheekier or push the boundaries or a bit edgier and that's exciting. That's exciting for our team. That's exciting for the customer who's on the other end as well. >> So would you say then it's more advantageous for someone coming into the

01:02:03 - 01:03:10

market than someone who's well established? >> I think so. But then how do you reach a liquid death caliber and a poppy soda and still keep innovating and still remain cool? That's where it's hard. >> Do you think there's a certain point of no return where a brand can no longer be cool? >> No, I think it goes through phases. They they eb and flow. I mean, everyone at the moment is giving Nike a lot of slack. I think we spoke about this. >> Yeah. Yeah. You can touch on it again.

01:02:37 - 01:03:47

>> Yeah, >> like Burberry, everyone sort of dips Gucci and then comes back out in different sort of ways, shapes and forms also really relates to internal happenings, creative directors when it gets to that scale, >> right? >> Yeah. So if we take a particular case, one that I'm familiar with, which is Howard Schultz at Starbucks, he was able to, you know, turn that brand into something special. And at one point they were opening 38 locations a day a day. Think about that. 38 new locations every

01:03:10 - 01:04:14

day. And it got to the point where he stepped out of being CEO. He was on the board. >> And then two years in, a new CEO with a new vision. The company was on the brink of bankruptcy. >> Yeah. How much is the founders's vision and making sure that they're sharp on that and that they're preaching it and feeding it into their business? How important is it that a brand has that in the front of their mind? >> Like the most important, I think, because as soon as they lose touch of

01:03:43 - 01:05:05

that, the brand becomes not a brand and it's just another shop or another product on the shelf. Starbucks is a crazy case study and example of that because of the sheer rate at which it grew and had to grow and then they sort of realized they had to pull back I believe I think from his founder story they pulled back a little bit. He came back in. He came back in fix it. >> And he did crazy stuff. Like one of the stories was like they closed every store in the country >> for 24 hours. Um and he'd sent DVDs out

01:04:23 - 01:05:26

to every store and a VHS and a TV and was like, "You need to spend your entire day with your team watching this training manual." Which lost the company >> an absurd amount of money, billions of dollars in 24 hours. Everyone said he was nuts. But he reset the culture and he reingjected the vision and I'm talking like six months later the company was in a new high. >> I think also with the Starbucks it's going back to your your roots of what are you actually serving here? It's it's

01:04:55 - 01:06:12

just big large coffees. >> Yeah. >> It's not that complicated. >> No. But then I believe also he came out with the star reserves, the bigger roasteries that were sort of that immersive experience where they identified that yes, there are I think 8,000 Starbucks stores in America. Obviously, every one of those can't be this all encompassing sensory experience, but if you go to these beautiful reserve bars where they've got the whole thing like the roaster happening, you can see baristas making

01:05:34 - 01:06:43

the best coffees. You can get all the different menu items and merchandise and that's part of that special moment for the brand. So I think yeah at at different growth stages you need to innovate in different ways but for a butter boy it's very much the start and that means everything we do is still new and so it's an exciting time for the consumer and for obviously us creating >> you guys are crushing absolutely crushing it. Now, let's shift gears into content creation for a moment here

01:06:09 - 01:07:08

because I think this is something that's in the top and front of everyone's mind, which is how do we continue to stay relevant on social media? You know, we're seeing AI bloat. We're seeing um you know, people really struggle to wrap their head around the algorithms. It feels like quite a turbulent time to build a business because not only do you have the sheer weight and responsibility of staff, HR, overheads, retail, brick and mortar, suppliers, products, manufacturing, now you got to worry

01:06:38 - 01:08:00

about platforms and algorithms and like what's happening in Silicon Valley and what's Zuck up to and what's Elon doing? Like how how can someone wrap their head around how to make their brand like relevant on social media platforms? a big question that could be its own episode. Um, I think I would I would say if I gave it an analogy, it's it's like what I was saying with the menu item of if you've got 10 slots on a menu to fill and you can fill five of them with your core

01:07:18 - 01:08:29

cult flavors that you know will always work. For example, on social media, the butterboy version of that is your really really closeup oozing photo of the inside of the cookie flavor of the month. That that has a space on the feed three or four times and you know that that's going to get a lot of traction because it's new, it's gory, it's norish, people want to see what the flavor is. So that's ticking and filling those slots in the feed. Then if you need to fill the next three,

01:07:54 - 01:09:03

you're thinking about what they also want to see and you know does well. It's the making of the cookies because that's exciting. It taps into that nostalgia. People want to be able to unpack or reveal what's behind the glass. So getting into the mixer, seeing the dough close up, getting back of house into the cool room, and that then fills the next three slots on the feed. But then it's the the five or the three left over that you're kind of sitting there with your team going, what's next? What's new? And

01:08:28 - 01:09:45

that goes back to innovation. So have we got any products in the pipeline? Can we come up with a whole campaign, which feels ridiculous, to talk about the latest cookie cereal? Yes, we can. Because you, this little character can go from being a static moment on the box to then a moving little guy running through the black and white streets of whatever town we created, but we did. And that's all of a sudden a campaign moment. So yeah, I always think of it in a really we have a really old school way of

01:09:07 - 01:10:10

mapping out our socials as well. I think everyone uses these crazy apps and software platforms and I'm constantly told by new staff members, "Oh, you should try this app." I'm like, "No, doesn't work. Does not do the job. All I need is a table and I need the visuals just slotted in with a really good caption and that's our social media feed. It doesn't need to be overly complicated, but the idea generation is where it's the complicated part. >> Yeah, we were talking about this in a

01:09:39 - 01:10:20

workshop recently where we were teaching people how to make content. And one of the common questions is, "How do I make sure I just pre-plan my content? Tick that box and get it done." And like, "Hey, hang on. >> You shouldn't bother. >> You shouldn't bother." Like, like this isn't a conveyor belt. This isn't an Excel spreadsheet where you tick the box. You're talking about culture, a live audience, >> and you're talking about community

01:09:59 - 01:10:58

>> theater and and a community of people that want to interact >> comments. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you have to kind of have the ability to kind of plan and forecast and think ahead, >> but also at the same time have some sense of spontaneity >> and also react to the world around you. So, for example, what's happening? A big sport match is happening and the the team is relevant to Butter Boy or um what's going on is like the viral thing happening at the

01:10:28 - 01:11:44

moment. Justin Bieber launches and drops his new album. Is there a song that relates to a cookie? It's just finding those random angles that you can sort of attach yourself or attach the brand to culture that then all of a sudden not just your local community care, it then attracts heaps of people online to see it. And that's the algorithm unlocked because people are sort of coming into the chat, sliding into the DMs, sharing it on their own socials or sharing it to their friends socials, which we all know

01:11:05 - 01:12:24

is the best way to reach new audiences. >> Now, you have done some fun campaigns. One of which is the cookie notice stunt where you faked parking fines on cars. How do you get away with, you know, doing things like that and having the fans react in a positive light and then how does that build the narrative of the brand? >> That was a great example um that our social team came up with off the back of Jim requesting that every shop opening needs its own sort of theater gorilla marketing moment attached to it. and and

01:11:46 - 01:12:59

then it sort of challenged the team to come up with, okay, how can you do it differently every time, which is also hard. So you you don't want to just show up with a DJ and and some balloon banners, which you know you could easily do, but how do you make it a little bit more tongue and cheek and and back to the attitude of the the boy on the packaging, which I think the parking ticket thing that nailed it because it felt not too crazy and illegal, but something a bit random and obscure of what is going going on here.

01:12:23 - 01:13:23

>> It has a hook cuz you're like, "What's happening? Why are they doing this?" >> Gets you second guessing. Um, it also really worked in that location because if you're familiar with Brookale, it's very industrial. Lots of tradies like running around getting their supplies with their vans and utes and it Yeah, it it stuck. What is something you feel like founders and people that are trying to build a brand are radically underestimating right now to get attention for their

01:12:52 - 01:14:17

brand? The cost of marketing without like paid marketing um activations that's where you start to have to invest money. I think social is a great springboard because it really is a free platform. to grow an audience. You can, if you're clever enough, you can build that up to a certain degree. But as soon as you start showing up in the popup space or doing brand collaborations and you need to do print runs of merchandise or stickers and custom packaging and and print and decals in store, that's that's where

01:13:35 - 01:14:38

it's hard. And I feel like that's the biggest challenge, which is such a boring answer, but it really does come down to cost of doing business. >> And what should people um assume would be a healthy budget? Let's say someone's doing, you know, okay with their business. They don't have a crazy amount to spend on on advertising and marketing. What should someone do? Because I think that there's, you know, uh a bit of fear in the market around like, okay, like >> capitalizing. Yeah. Like, do I put my

01:14:06 - 01:15:20

money in SEO? Do I do meta ads? Like, where should someone really think about putting their money to get the best return uh on their brand budget? >> I think it's a little bit different for every product and every sort of industry. I know for food, the showing up in real life. So having a retail shop has allowed and a front counter that people can physically buy the product in has been has opened up so many avenues in terms of brand partnerships and and collaborating with people that want to take over the store

01:14:43 - 01:15:40

and using the real estate that you have instead of having to go outside and constantly show up and pop up in different areas. So that's one thing. Digital is a whole another beast. so paid. It's just getting more and more expensive to sort of reach audiences and target. >> It feels more difficult. Like I think since you know some of the changes with iOS, you can't necessarily figure out or engineer or premeditate who you want to speak to anymore. It's kind of like you roll the dice, you throw 10 grand out

01:15:12 - 01:16:26

there in the ether and you don't know where it goes. >> Especially for a non-commerce brand which is butter boy. So what's the call to action? You could go live with a million dollars worth of ads, but is it just, hey, come and get a cookie? Not really sure the ROI on that's great. So instead, we invest the money into actually the campaigns, the instore experience. So what print decal looks like, merchandise looks like, which is also a walking marketing platform and touch point. Um, and then

01:15:48 - 01:17:00

slowly now starting to dip our toes into things like pop-up shops and kiosks and and showing up outside the shop outside of the flagship moment, which is hard because the whole point is to have freshly baked cookies. So, how do you keep that quality sensory experience without having the kitchen attached to it, which yeah, it's all part of the growth. Now, when you're looking at the ad spends and ways you can get attention and drive people into the physical locations, can a brand overindex or overinvest in

01:16:25 - 01:17:40

building brand equity? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I also think that is with brands growing too fast, which is what we were talking about before of you could open heaps and heaps of shops because you have money to do that, but is the product good? Is the experience going to be the same in every single one? Are the staff trained properly? Are the processes the same? It's quality control to me that is overinvesting in that. Even down to the packaging of the time it takes to get suppliers right

01:17:02 - 01:18:09

and packaging to that level is multiple samples and so many months worth of sampling testing going back and forth with suppliers that it's a long lead experience and task. It doesn't happen within a few weeks. I I think that is something that always shocks me when clients come knocking going, "Oh, we're launching to market in 8 weeks." Like, "Cool." >> With like no plan >> with what? >> Yeah. >> It doesn't. >> It happens all the time. They're like,

01:17:36 - 01:18:26

"I got an idea. We're launching in 8 weeks." And you're like, "Why?" >> Yeah. >> What's the idea? We don't know. >> It's a rush as well. Unless it's Yeah. I think it's a balance between you want to move fast because you're on to something and people are obviously picking up what you're putting down, but you can't risk the quality and the integrity of the brand in doing so. >> How much do you think of what it takes

01:18:01 - 01:19:12

to be a successful business owner is just down to quality control? >> Quite a lot. But I I think there's a balance between being a perfectionist and being someone who can make decisions really quickly and and not look into the finer detail when you shouldn't be or know when to and when not to. It's >> like knowing when to stop >> and like having the ability to make decisions fast. >> Yeah. which comes down to I guess leadership and and being really clear with the

01:18:36 - 01:19:41

overall vision and goals of say 12 months 24 months and if it's not perfect and you could keep going back and back and reiterating doing another scheme for the shop or doing another run of merch designs or doing another run of what the campaign should look like. And it's never going to be perfect, I don't think, in the eyes or mind of a founder who's who it's their baby and that they're so proud and and passionate about this. But you have to know when to just put the tools down

01:19:08 - 01:20:12

and go to the next thing because you're probably getting sleepless nights over the cookie campaign that everyone's over it anyway and they just want the next flavor on the bench. So, you have to keep thinking about that. And how do you avoid becoming too uh repetitious? Like so so that people are like, "Okay, another flavor, another thing, like whatever." How do you avoid um getting stuck and getting stale? >> I I feel like fortunately for cookies, it goes back to that. It's quite a

01:19:40 - 01:20:49

unique scenario where like a coffee or a ice cream, there's always going to be those cult flavors like a vanilla, a chocolate, a strawberry, or a long black, a latte, and a iced matcha that people will have their rituals and they'll always order that. So, you can keep that churning, but innovating just the small cherry on the top is what you have to be Yeah. working on. It's like the 8020 rule. >> Oh yeah, that makes sense to me. And looking at the market now, where do you think there's a gap? If someone was to

01:20:15 - 01:21:13

go, I want to do something like what you've done with Butter Boy, where do you see products not getting the innovation that they deserve? >> If I told you that, it would be revealing my next business. >> Outside of the next business, do you see anything on the horizon where you're like, man, people should be thinking about this? >> Always. I walk down the supermarket aisle constantly or the chemist. I'm like, "That sucks. That's ugly. That could be redone. That needs disrupting."

01:20:44 - 01:22:04

>> Classic brand strategist. >> Yeah. There's always a a space on the shelf that needs something new or or to be done in a better way, a more cost effective way, a sexier way. Becoming a mom for the second time and going through this stage again. segue, but it makes you realize that market is just ripe for I mean, and it has been to a certain extent. Everything's being disrupted in the baby aisle, but moms are spending money. They're buying stuff. And I feel like that's the

01:21:24 - 01:22:39

the way to identify it is what are the needs and what's like a problem for a certain consumer group and how can you solve it? And would you agree that a space being oversaturated is actually just a myth? >> Yeah, I think you can always be better than what is out there. I think there are there are different sort of industries and and some are monopolies, some are duopolies and that feels like a really scary space to then come in as the small guy or the small girl and and disrupt it. But everything goes through

01:22:01 - 01:23:21

phases. Everything. Even the Nikes of the world can be disrupted by the on running. So there's it's just about time and place. I think >> if Nike is not safe, nobody's safe. >> But then Nike has paved the way for everything. So it would be sort of wrong to say that they're redundant. They're just sort of in a bit of a plateau. But they've they're they're coming back. >> Sophia, one last question. What does agency mean to you? >> To be confident in your idea and what

01:22:42 - 01:24:08

you're doing. I think that's the biggest thing of being a founder of ideas, products, service agencies, anything. You have to be so sure and block out the noise and the imposter syndrome daily, which I think the older I get and the more I do this, I become more sure of myself and more sure of what I'm saying and the ideas I'm putting out there and the way that my team is ideulating. I'm more confident in that. It's all a learning experience for sure, but you also start to have this ability to just

01:23:24 - 01:24:25

be in your lane and not be scared by what people think, which is to me that's agency. Because as soon as you let those sort of noises, spiders, demons in, then you just become sort of paralyzed in what you're doing. I I would agree because it feels like, you know, there's those moments where you're like, I have an idea. I have a thing I'm obsessed with. I think it's cool. And then you kind of alter your perspective and you're like, hm, people might think it's stupid. It's funny. And

01:23:55 - 01:25:02

then all of a sudden, you're imploding on your own idea all out of fear. >> Totally. And yeah, I understand. Like there's moments of you just have to protect yourself by not putting it out there or not trying too hard. But I would hate not to have tried hard because I cared too much of what people thought. I think that that's yeah, life's too short. >> Life's too short. And I've noticed like, you know, recently I was I was talking to some people about their goals and

01:24:28 - 01:25:18

people are so terrified to write down their goals because it's scary. And it's like, well, >> or admit their goals >> or admit them. And it's like, okay. They're like, oh, I'm scared to write my goals down. I'm like, that's crazy. >> What happens if you sit there and stare at them? All of a sudden, the fear goes away. >> Test it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And also normalize your goals. I think goals in your head are scarier than goals set out loud. So, as soon as you

01:24:53 - 01:25:51

say it to someone, this is my rule. As soon as you say it to someone, that means you have to do it. And I I'm not so much a writer of them. I like verbalize it a lot and workshop with people close to me. And that to me is holding myself accountable to, okay, it's out there in the universe. They're going to remember this and I have to actually do it now. >> No, I love that. I love public peer pressure. It's my favorite, >> especially from close friends and family. >> Yeah. I got to hold you accountable idea

01:25:23 - 01:26:04

you had. Where is it? >> Yeah. Damn it. >> It's coming. >> Well, it's been a pleasure and congratulations on all your success and your gorgeous new son, Apollo. Uh, and we appreciate you being here and uh it's always fun catching up. >> Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. [Music]

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