The Pain That Built My Health Empire | Sally Obermeder

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People will buy products for their health with way less care than their t-shirt. You can buy another t-shirt. You can buy new sneakers. If you smash your phone, you can get another one. But you'll never be able to buy another body. People started to say like, "What are you drinking and what's your stuff?" People would ask us for the recipes and I would write them on a post-it note. And then there were so many people asking, I would prewrite the post-it note. And that's the inception

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essentially of how Swish began. So, I had this great pregnancy, had this dream run, everything was amazing. And then I found out that I had cancer. It's like stage three um and a really like rare aggressive form of breast cancer. See you later. >> When you're well, you just be like, "Oh, 5 years from now, I'm going to do this." You have such freedom to dream and think, and suddenly when you're unwell, you're like, "I don't even know if I'll see next summer.

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should I write her all these letters in case I die, you know, like 8 or 10 and I'm not here, you know, like all these things. And then I was like, no, no, because if I if I write those, am I then a contributing factor in in a in an outcome I don't want. My whole thing is I hope and pray you feel amazing. I want you to feel I want you to wake up and be like, I [ __ ] feel amazing. What in that moment stuck with you that you felt changed how you saw life? This episode is brought to you by Wick

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Studio. Here at the agency podcast, we're building a community and we would love for you guys to be part of it. So, we would love to hear from you. What are you enjoying the most? What would you like to see more of? and what do you think might be missing? Drop a comment. Make sure you subscribe. And now on with the show. >> Sally, welcome to the Agency podcast. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm super excited to catch up with you. I know you're incredibly busy. Uh, and

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we've been ships in a night. We've been trying to make this happen for like a year. >> So, finally, we're here. We made it happen. Uh, and, um, I there's so much to unpack with your story. You're you're an enigma. You've got a ton of energy. You've lived 15 lives. Uh I think just to give people context because you've done so much um we want to get into the technical uh source of what you're doing with your brand. But before we do that I I just kind of want to open and unfurl

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where you came from and where all this energy comes from. >> Yeah. I don't know where the energy comes from. So let's see. So um at school I was goody two shoes. You don't want to do the right thing but I always want to be in TV, right? Like I want to be in Young Always always I want to be on Young Talent Time. It was like kind of um Danny Manog, right? So it was like they were like young kids and they would sing and dance and it was like what you would watch and I wanted to do that and

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my mom and dad were accountants and so they were like no >> that doesn't sound like a job where you're going to get like you're going to be able to pay rent like you need to get a steady job, a safe job and that was really drilled into me I think from a very young age like a cons like a conservative upbringing safe safe. And I think it's funny because now I see what I'm like and I'm very risky. I actually like risk but it was drilled into me like be safe, be safe, be safe. And so

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after school I went to uni. I did accounting, I did marketing and I, you know, that's just what you did. So I went I got a job in accounting. I worked in banking and then I went and worked in investment banking. And it was good. I liked it. It was absolutely fine. And I was happy, you know, I actually was happy. And I worked my way up. that's what you're supposed to do. I got to like VP level. I was on a good salary. Everything was terrific. And in all fairness, I really saw my life playing

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out kind of the way I had imagined it as a kid. And then I met Marcus, um, who I'm now married to, and he said to me something just like really in passing. I was like, I always want to work in TV. And mom and dad were like, no. And he was like, God, that's a shame. Like, you would just never want to die wondering. >> And it literally was like, and that's it. And maybe about a month later, I was like, "I'm gonna leave my job." And he like, "What the like you're we'd already

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bought a house. We had a big mortgage." Like, and we'd had a conversation when we bought the house. No one can leave their job. This is a really big mortgage. We're all in. And I was like, "Yes, I'm strapped in." But then he said the comment and then my life changed and I was like about that. I just I really >> And it just so happens, well, you said it. >> Yeah. >> I'm just living up to it. I mean, you said this thing and I went I resigned and everyone thought I'd lost the plot.

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>> You didn't have a plan B. You were just like >> no plan B. I was like, I'm going to go get a job in television. I'm 30. I have no contacts, no network. I have no experience. I don't have a journalism degree. I mean, I'm from accounting and marketing. That's what I that's what I did. I have nothing to go on. And everyone around me is buying houses and having kids. That's what you're doing at this age, right? And here I am literally blowing up my life with no with nothing

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but just this whim and this dream. >> Wait, what what happened in this month? It can't just be the comment. >> It was the It was the comment. And I think it was like cuz he said you never want to die wondering. There was something about dying. You know that like funny enough I was like, "Oh my god, I'm 30. I'm 30 and I've spent all this time in a way doing something that's fine but not what I want. I think I already was unhappy and maybe I needed someone else's permission back then.

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That comment, not only did it change the course of my life, but actually it's like some it's like a switch inside me went off. And ever since then, I'm rogue. Like I'm [ __ ] like I'm doing all kinds of [ __ ] Everyone's like, I don't think we should be doing that. And I'm like, watch me jump. We'll work it out on the way down. >> Yeah. So, you were in a situation where you literally would not be able to cover the mortgage. >> Oh, no. Oh, we had to sell the house. So

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then you sold the house. We sold it. Yeah, we had to. >> You went all in. >> We I went all in. >> You You completely pivoted your life. You tore up the mortgage. >> Tore up the mortgage. >> Your husband's like, "Right, okay." And the thing is is like I didn't You still have bills. Like even though like great, we don't have a mortgage. We still were then like renting. We've still got electricity and water and cars and like all that stuff. And so he was like,

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"What are you going to do?" And I was like, "I want to go work in TV." And I was like, I get like obviously, you know, I'm going to work. I'm going to go and become a personal trainer and a Pilates instructor while I try and get into TV. This is like 200 um one, right? So, what does get a job in TV? You can't like you can't go on Seek and be like, "Hi, look, there are no job. They don't advertise those jobs." Like, what? There there are three stations. There's [ __ ] three jobs at

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every station. Like, there are no jobs. There's only 10 jobs in the entire industry. like where are you going to get that job and why are you the person with zero experience how are you going to get it and also technically too old 30 is like kind of old to be starting in TV with no experience >> okay so like the the cards weren't really in your favor >> at all >> we have three national stations 7 9 and 10 >> 9 10 7 9 and 10 >> ABC SPS >> I don't want to work there right cuz I

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want to do like fun stuff you know and no shade >> and uh three there's three stations there's >> one or two shows. Like there's basically two breakfast programs cuz that's what I want to work on. I don't want to work on the news and I'm not going to go and work on like home in a way. I don't want to be an actor. I want to be a TV presenter. So there's like two shows, three stations. There's literally like 10 jobs. There's like there are no there

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are no jobs in TV. >> You're like I'm going to fund this with Pilates. >> Like watch me go. Pilates is so new back then. No one even knows what I'm doing. They're like what the [ __ ] even Pilates? No one's even heard of Pilates back then. Because what you're actually doing is you're going for plan A, but you're working on plan B at the same time. And I start to build a personal training business. I'm working on this Pilates business. I'm getting clients. I'm

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training them at the gym. And I am now trying to teach myself TV presenting. P.S. back then the phone didn't have. We were all on Blackberries. There's no camera, right? And so, how am I practicing? I'm paying 600 bucks a day to get like a super cute video camera which I'm setting up in my like lounge room and I'm reading like new idea articles to practice being a TV presenter which is sort of weird now. Like now it's weird, right? Because everyone's got their phone and

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everyone's a [ __ ] Tik Tok star, right? Like back then really hard, right? And so I'm doing courses, I'm practicing, I'm trying to get better, I'm like sending off like show reels, I'm like it's there's I'm getting no replies for years, but I don't give up. I don't give up. I'm like, I just know. And you know, I had this analogy back then. It was like a nightclub line. I don't know. Have you ever lined up for a nightclub? You're Okay. Right. Right.

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So, you line up and you wait and then some people they get they can't be bothered [ __ ] waiting. They exit. Right. And then you move up in the line. And I was like, this is the same thing. I'm just going to stay in the [ __ ] line until I get to the front of the line. Like, I have that mentality I have because if you exit the line, you're definitely out. But if you stay in the line, you got a chance, you know. So stay in the line and do the work. So I did. I was doing all my courses, sending

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off all this stuff, getting rejected for even free work. I was applying at channel 7 for work experience for three years. Three years. They would they wouldn't even take me for a week like for free. Like don't pay me. I just want to like just want to turn up. Eventually after three years, I worked on like community TV which is like um it's all this is all free. This is like we are not making a dollar here. We're all this is all free. But eventually I was like, I don't care. I'm getting experience.

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I'm getting confident. I'm getting this under my belt. And eventually I get this job for work experience at the Great Outdoors, which is like the number one travel show. And I'm working for free. I'm just doing some research and I'm thinking, "This is it. This is my lucky break and I'm going to stay here until I can turn this into something." And I stay for a week. I do this work experience. And after like two weeks, the guy's like, "Okay, listen. I'm going

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to like you can't just stay here." And I was like, "Okay, can you introduce me to Cuz I was like, this is like the primo show, right? I can't this isn't going to work out. I need to go to a really small show where I can actually if they've got less stuff, I could be there and I could be of value." So, it's like you need grit. You need brains, right? You can't just be like, I want to be at the best show. It's like, I've got to think, hang on a minute, this is the best show.

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They're not going to want me here. Why don't I go to a small show where I can be of value? There won't have as many people. Maybe they'll be happy to have me for free. And I did that. I went to Sydney Weekend era and I was like, "Can I work here?" The guy was like, "Yeah, you happy to be a paid." And I was like, "Absolutely." He's like, "Amazing. Here's a desk. Start working." And I would research and I would produce. I'd be like, "Okay, you

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know, like where's where are the PV presenters going to go and like what are the segments?" And I remember maybe after like five months, one morning Als, he's like our executive producer and he's like, "Morning, morning." He looks at me and he goes, "You know you're still not getting paid, right?" And I was like, "Yes." And he goes, "Just checking." Cuz just checking cuz he's like, "I don't know." >> Yeah. He's like, "You know, you're not

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getting paid." And I was like, "Absolutely." He's like, "Why are you still here?" And I was like, "Because I'm learning. I'm on the job. I am learning. Look, you're actually doing me a favor." Because before that, I was in my lounge room with a camera I was renting for 600 bucks trying to work out what they did in TV. I'm actually here now. And I worked for free for one year. >> One year. And I was then, so then with my Pilates and personal trainer, I was

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like basically getting up at 4:00 a.m. I would train clients at the gym from like 5 until 9. I'd get in my car. I drive an hour across the other side of Sydney to get to the studio. I'd be like getting changed out of my personal training clothes into my like work clothes. I get there. I do a full day for free. I drive back in the car. I go back. I train clients until 10:00 at night. >> Jesus Christ. Yeah. Wow. And I would have done that honestly for many years. I didn't care. I was like, I'm going for

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it cuz if you want it, I was like, I want this. And it was like I was trying to make up for lost time. I think it's like that period of time where I was like from 20 to 30 where I should have done what I wanted and didn't. I was like, I'm going to make up for it and I'm going for it. >> So you're like right at the front of the nightclub. You can hear the music. You can see in the door. >> Totally. And they're having fun. I'm like I can feel the beat. I'm like I'm

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getting in there. I'm getting in there. When I get in there, drinks on me, you know. And I think that's the thing. Most people, they exit the line. Like, why do people do that? Stay the course. If you want that thing, stay the course. People tap out too early >> in that moment where you're crushing it and you're doing it for free. I would imagine in their mind they're like, "Man, this chick is crushing it for free. We have people we're paying that aren't bringing the amount of energy

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she's bringing." So, if you were to zoom out of your thoughts and into their thoughts, what what do you think the signal was? What do you think the strategic play was from from the team looking back at you? >> I think they were like, she cares. She cares. She doesn't she's not treating it like I'm only working for free, so I'm going to halfass it. I'm like, I'm treating it exactly the same as whether you're paying me full rate, with a bonus, with a I could have been on the

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same salary I was on in investment banking. I didn't consider the dollar value that they were giving me. I'm factoring in. You're actually giving me something priceless here. I'm leaving here with on my resume a year's worth of experience. And also, I actually know something. I actually know something. And you know, it was so funny because I knew what it was like to be on the outside knocking, right? Sending off all those emails, sending off your show reel, trying to get an in. But here I

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am. I'm in. And when I and I say to my boss, it's like, "What is it you want to do?" And I was like, "I want to be on TV. I want to be a presenter." He's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I got a whole heap of those." He was like, "I need basically everybody to drop dead first and then like, you know, then you can have a turn >> and they're not going >> and then and then no, and let me tell you, everyone's when you have a job in TV, you are holding on to that thing

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like for dear life." As luck would have it, you know, like this is the thing about being in the line. That's when the magic happens. you know, someone calls in sick, it's a Friday, the shoot's on Saturday, and he's like, "You're up." But this is where all the stuff in the lounge room comes to play because when you get your lucky break, you can't be like, "Oh [ __ ] I now need to practice." When you get that lucky break, you better have done your rehearsal. You

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better have practiced. You better have your skill ready. He's like, "Wait, tomorrow you're going to go and you're going to do a TV. You're going to be on TV." When he says to me, "You're up. Tomorrow you're going to go. You're going to be on TV. It's Friday." So, >> he came up to your desk one day. >> Yeah. He comes up and he goes, "It's Friday." And he goes, "Mel's called in sick and we've got it's like man the

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story is Manly Waterworks, right? You're going to go down the slide and you're like, "I'm at Manly Waterworks." And you're going to go down the slide and and I've seen everybody else do it and it looks like anything. It looks easy when you watch someone else do it. And in that moment, I feel both sick because it's like this is it. If I [ __ ] this up, these last three years have been a complete waste. But I'm also like this is the moment I've been training for.

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This is the moment I've been waiting for. This is it. My career hinges on this moment, you know. And look, was I outstanding? Really, I was average. But as he said to me, he's like, "You know what? It's all right for somebody who hasn't done it before. If again everybody falls sick, you can have another turn. Stay in the line. Your second chance comes and your third chance." And eventually he's like, "All right." You know, and it took me a couple of years. So I was there a long

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time. A couple of years I'm like researching by day and every like maybe month I might get a segment but I've come a long way. It was only four years ago that I was literally handing in my resignation. Everyone was laughing at me going, "Oh, you're an idiot." If you are waiting for everybody to believe in you, you could be waiting a long time. Like if I hadn't left just knowing on my own gut instinct and Marcus saying Marcus said that thing to me and then I was like I'm going for this, right? But

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everyone around me with the exception honestly of like Marcus and my sister who were like you know what if you want to go for it but everyone was like you're an idiot you're an idiot you know and like and people would say stuff like a you're still trying cute that's a blessing because it's like you know that really taught me it's like well I'm not going to wait around for you to clap and and cheer and say yes go for it because if you're waiting be waiting a long time

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just go for it you know it's it's at the end of the say you come in alone and you exit alone sadly if you're waiting for everybody if you're waiting for people to give you permission and I think it's cuz I always waited for permission right and so in I'd learned now [ __ ] waiting for permission we're going for it and what happens is when you then do it everyone's like oh I always knew it was going to work I was I was like I always believed in you and I'm like oh so good

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thank you I must have felt it from a distance a real big distance but like it's it's also not their job to do that. Like I think that's the key. It's your job. It's actually your life. If it's your life and your dreams, then why on earth did you wait for this last component, the permission and the cheering? Why did you hand that over to someone else that also still resides with you? They all reside with you. You know, >> clients want it all. A slick looking website that can run their business and

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need to break a sweat when clients grow fast. A dynamic CMS with global design settings and reusable assets lets you turn one page into hundreds. Design smoother and deliver sooner. Go to wixstudio.com. So, there's a few things I want to maybe loop back into around risk and patience, but like >> I guess to kind of >> flesh out the second part of your story because it's pretty crazy. >> Uh, so, you know, for those listening, brace yourself. Um, uh, but how did you get from that point through to to now?

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>> So, so I'm I'm at Sydney Weekender. Everything's great. It's all terrific. And then, um, in theory, I've like made it. And then I go in and I say, "I resign. I'm resigning. I'm resigning." And he's like, "There are there are no jobs. Why don't you managed to get one? And I was like, it's not enough for me. It's not enough air time. I want more air time. And because it was like a half hour show, you only got airtime like once every second week. And I was like,

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I want to be on TV every single night. Like that's what I want. So I left. And with no job to go to, but I wanted to ultimately to, you know, come back to the thing I wanted, which was always to be an entertainment reporter. That's what I wanted to be. Anyway, I heranged the EP from Today Tonight for like a year. I was like, I want to come and work there. I want to come and work there. Eventually, they had a job going and he rang me and said, "You can come for the interview, but you're not going

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to get the job. But I want you to have a chance to do the interview because you've been ringing me basically non-stop annoying me." I turn up for the interview and I was thinking, "I'm get I'm going to get this job. I am not leaving without this job." And he was like, "What do you want to do?" I say, "He tells ME I'M NOT GETTING I'LL INTERVIEW YOU, but you're definitely not getting the job." >> You're not getting the job. But I'm like

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thinking, "I'm I'm I'm coming and I'm going to get this job." And he's like, "Okay." So, I sit down. He's like, "What do you want to do?" And I was like, I want to be an entertainment reporter. I want to do, you know, pop stars, m movie stars. I want to do fashion. I want to do beauty. And he's like, everyone wants to do politics. I want to do world affairs. I want to do current affairs. And I was like, not me. Don't care. Don't care. I don't want to chase a

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plumber down the street. I don't care about any of that stuff. I only want to do like this stuff. This is what I care about. I want to do the dress you can wear a hundred ways. I want to do like top five beauty trends. That's what I care about. And he was like, "All right, then. Job's yours." I was like, "All right, then. Amazing." And I went with and and can I and like >> You were like, "I knew it. >> I knew it." I was like I was like, "This

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is it." And it was like cuz I think I was so different to anyone else. He was like, "Nobody wants to do those stories." I was like, "I [ __ ] do. I love those stories." And I did every like every single person you can think of. Beyonce, Taylor Swift, like every single like Rihanna, like I did every single pop star, music star. I did movies. I did everything. Red carpets, like I traveled the world. And it was high pressure. Like we were the number one show. You, you know, 4:00 a.m. you

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get a message on your Blackberry. He's like, "I need a three-minute story tonight." And it was your job to pull the story together. You've got a, you know, cameraman, a soundy, and you've got to book the location, find the story, write the story, script the story. You've got to sit with the editor. You've got to make sure your story gets to air. You've got to, it has to pass. Like, if you've got to give it to him, he's got to say, "Yes, it's okay." like you're under pressure

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morning till night. But I [ __ ] loved it. I loved it so much. And I was and so I was there for four, four and a half, five years until I fell pregnant with Annabelle, my first child. And then I got cancer. I found I had cancer the day before she was born. >> The day before she was born. >> Day before she was born. So I had this great pregnancy, had this dream run. Everything was amazing. And then I found out that I had cancer. It was like stage three. Um, and a really like rare, aggressive form of breast cancer. It was

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a really was it was really bad. The prognosis was really bad. They were like, "You're basically not going to make it. You should prep." Blah, blah, blah. And >> the day before your daughter's born, it >> was really rough. Really rough. It was really rough. >> Um, but I so I had like kind of a year and a half to two years off for treatment. And in that period, that's when I started to like make smoothies to try and get better. I then came back to work. I to

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make smoothies get better. Then I wanted to do the smoothie book which nobody believed in and everybody said was like an absolute joke cuz no one's ever heard of a green smoothie in 2011. We then go on to do the book self-published. It goes to number one and that's essentially what started our brand. I then went back to TV did another like five or six years hosting my own show in the afternoon and running Swish at the same time and here I am. I don't know >> that that's intense. So, so like I'm

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trying to picture the amount of emotions that would be running through anyone in that situation. >> Yeah. >> So, you're there, you're laying in bed and and they're giving you the the prognosis like I um so I'm at today tonight I'm in this dream job and everything's amazing. Literally, I'm so at this point I'm 38. And so I've gone from 30 to 38. This from this time I quit my investment banking job to now like it's been 8 years of this like wild

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ride and I literally am on top of the world. I'm in the best job in TV. I'm so happy. Um I'm finally pregnant. I have this great pregnancy. Everything's terrific. I finish up um with a week to go. I And I'm still kind of working. I'm lining up a Sarah Jessica Parker interview. Everything's good. I get a book deal. I actually get this book deal. So random, right? So I'm I'm I I get this book deal. I had this idea to do this kind of like celebrity party book. I get this book deal. I'm like my

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life cannot like this is like like chef's kiss to the universe. Thank you. I'm so happy. I go to see my obstitrician, you know, cuz I'm overdue. And you know, he's like, "How you feeling?" I'm like, "Amazing. Everything's great." And I had had a lump in my breast, but I thought I was like, "Oh, my body's changing. This, you know, this stuff happens. It's all fine." And it had been there for maybe a few months, but I kept forgetting to

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tell him. I kept forgetting. Every time I go, I'd forget. So, I'm at this appointment. I finish. He's like, "The baby's healthy. It's all good. You happy to wait another week?" Like kind of. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm all good." And I get dressed and I'm actually leaving. I'm leaving the appointment. the doors open and I've literally got one foot across the threshold and then I remember about the lump and then I'm like, "Oh, I forgot to tell you. I think I've got

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like a blocked milk duct or like something cuz I've got this lump." And he's like, "You better show me." And I'm like, "But I look down the corridor and it's everyone's waiting for their appointment." You know when you go to the obstitrician, it's packed, right? And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no. I'll show you. I'll be back in a few days. I'll show you." And I said, "I feel bad cuz everybody's waiting for their appointment." and he says to me,

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"Absolutely not. You must show me." Anyway, he he he like has a feel. He's like, "Okay." He's like, "Do you know what we're going to do? I'm going to get Lex to like book you this appointment, his assistant at the clinic." And he's all lovely about it. And I'm like, "Oh, it's so nice. They're so nice here." I walk back out to the uh front desk, you know, to pay. And I can hear her on the phone to the breast clinic and they're

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saying, "Oh, there's only the next available appointment's in three weeks." And she's like, "We need the appointment." And so she gets me an appointment at 9:00 a.m. So I go at 9:00 a.m. and Marcus is like, "Do you want me to come with you?" And I'm like, "No, why? It's all good. I'm just going to go." And I get there at 9:00. It's packed. >> Still there at 400 p.m. Everyone's been and gone. And at lunchtime, Marcus is

00:25:37 - 00:26:26

like, "You're still there?" And I'm like, "Yeah." I don't I I I almost I almost feel like the universe was like I I don't know whether I knew and I was in Oh, no. I don't think I knew. I just was like I don't know. I just was like off with the fairies. I was everything was so good. I don't think I could have imagined anything was wrong. And at 400 p.m. they say to me, "I've at this point had like biopsies and whatever." And I don't

00:26:02 - 00:26:48

really know what a biopsy is. I've never had one before. So I'm like, "Okay, sounds good." Okay. You know, and then they say to me, "Do you know what we might do? We might get Marcus down here with you." And I was like, "Oh, that's so again, I'm like, "Oh, that's so nice. They're so nice here." I think it's cuz I'm pregnant when he comes. And and while I'm waiting for him to come down, they've got this nurse and she's sitting

00:26:24 - 00:27:24

with me and um and I'm on my Blackberry. I'm doing this Sarah Jessica Parker thing, right? I'm handing over this interview to somebody else in my team to do. And I say to her, "I don't need you to sit with me. You know, I'm okay." And she's like, "I know. I know. I know. I'll just I'll just stay here." And I'm working. And you know, years later, maybe like four years later, I was at this um breast cancer fundraiser and this woman comes over to me and she's, "Hi, you

00:26:54 - 00:27:43

don't remember me, but I sat with you." And I was like said, and I was I said, "I'm actually annoyed at you. you were sitting with me. And she goes, "I know. I know you were." And I said, "I didn't I didn't I didn't know why you were there." She said, "I know." And that's what made it sadder. She said, "Our job is to stay with the person and in case it dawns on them that something they're about to get given this terrible news."

00:27:19 - 00:28:20

And she said, "And I've sat with people and they always know." And she said it was almost like, she said, "You were so," she said, "you were unaware and it was so painful to watch, you know." know she said and then you know she you know it was really and so then Marcus came and I was like oh so nice you're here and then they were like listen this is bad you've got like really rare really aggressive form of breast cancer it's really advanced with stage three and they're like okay

00:27:49 - 00:28:55

have to basically have the baby tomorrow and I like it I was I was I I'd like gone full term but they're like the baby's okay so you got to go tomorrow and have the Then was maybe like Tuesday and they like before the end of the week you have to do Kim you have to start or you're going to die. >> It was [ __ ] it was really heavy. It was really heavy and it was um and I it's you know and I think it's you know I was then of course like I I you know I want a cesarian I can't I

00:28:22 - 00:29:28

can't put I was like hysterical and I think it's like you've got to then go tell your parents you know that's really awful I had to tell my sister we're very you know so close like you have to it's you're also like sharing this awful news with the people who love do. I don't know. It was just terrible. It was terrible. And I had no family history. Like I had no kind of, you know, seemingly healthy and fine. And um they Yeah, they made me give birth basically the next day. And I I remember like I

00:28:55 - 00:29:57

was sobbing. I was like, I just want a week. I just want to go home for a week with my baby, you know? And they were like this, you don't have a week. You don't have time. There's no time. You have to like you have to do chemo. And I had to do like old school chemo. the kind that like they put it in your arm and it goes for like six or seven hours and it goes in and it burns and you're so nauseous for [ __ ] weeks. I lost my hair. All my nails fell off. Skin was gray. Like 30 kilos from the chemo. Like

00:29:25 - 00:30:28

you're like a shell of yourself. And and the thing is is like you're doing the chemo but you don't even know if it's going to work. Like the whole time they're like this is not great. this this you know so it's not like you're doing it but they're like this is great we've got great results they're like this kind of this kind of cancer this has terrible outcomes very lucky I'm very lucky to be here very lucky you know but you know coming back to grit I I sometimes would think you know

00:30:00 - 00:31:14

almost like all that you know trying to get into TV that grit that that like perseverance was like a training camp for cancer because you no one's going to make you go to the chemo, right? No one's going to come and drag you there, you know, so many times like you're so sick. You're so sick, the sickest you've ever been in your life times 1 million. And I remember maybe like 4 months in, just at this one point, I remember like being in the shower and I was like screaming from the pain like your entire

00:30:36 - 00:31:33

body is at war. It's at war with itself. Like you're you're so sick. You're so sick. You're like you can't keep food down, but you're hungry, but you feel like you've got this petrol taste in your mouth, but you're nauseous. You feel like your bones are being ripped apart because you get these injections. You feel you can't sleep, but and the painkiller is like endone's not [ __ ] strong enough. Like the whole like your body is and it you just there's no reprieve. Like it goes for

00:31:06 - 00:32:07

like two weeks and then finally it wears off and just as it wears off you have to go back again, you know? So I remember at one point I was like I can't do this anymore. I can't keep I can't do this. And then I was like, I have to do this, you know. And it's like it's very much the same. It's like you have to stay in the line to keep going, to keep going, you know. You can't quit. Just like you didn't quit on those other things, you can't quit here. This is not the one

00:31:35 - 00:32:46

we're quitting on, you know. Um and and these things make you stronger. They make you stronger. They give you heaps of empathy, you know. and they make you also realize like life's short and you want to go for it. >> First and foremost, thank you. >> I like no, don't be sorry. Like I' I've felt this and like um you know uh pregnancy is a lot and having your firstborns is difficult. >> Yeah. >> And then adding this on top >> your career on top of that and

00:32:11 - 00:33:17

everything else and all the pain. H how in this did you find that next stage of your life? Because it's it's looking forward at that moment must have been excruciating. >> It's really hard. I remember I rang my sister like around 6 months I think into my treatment and it's still like really bad and I was like if I survive and you start do you do you use terms like if I survive if I survive if I live which is really weird because when you're well you just be like oh 5 years from now I'm going to do this

00:32:45 - 00:33:34

three summers from now we'll go to Italy like you have such freedom to dream and think and suddenly when you're unwell you're like I don't even know if I'll see next summer people are talking about next Christmas like it's a real casual But well, what if I'm not here for it? So, you have a real sense of time. And I remember I rang her like around 6 months in and I was like, if I live, then let's do something together that helps people feel good, you know? And I didn't like I

00:33:09 - 00:34:11

didn't know what it was. I didn't have a concept. I didn't like know anything. And she was just like, [ __ ] just get better. Like, just get like just get better, you know? And um and it and and sometimes you need a glimmer of something. Like I knew I wanted to go back to TV if I lived and I knew like you want it's funny the thing you always want when you're sick is your old life back but you've changed right so it's like there's a disconnect going on it's like so much is like I want I want to go

00:33:39 - 00:34:57

back to where I was but you can't you've fundamentally changed and you don't you will never see like I now see the world so differently I can't go back to how I used to see it before cancer I just can't it's like you know, you've gone through something that's changed your viewpoint now and everything. So, it was but I needed that something to look forward to that was just an an imagining imagine if imagine if you know and I also the other thing was that I was so torn between

00:34:18 - 00:35:28

do I succumb and accept that this might not happen? Like I remember one night with Annabelle like I was doing a feed and I was like should I write her all these letters you know in case I die should I write her these letters that she could open over the next you know course of her life you know like hey you're 10 and I'm not here you know like all these things and then I was like [ __ ] no no no because if I if I write those like is part of me am I am I falling into something. Am I am I, you

00:34:53 - 00:35:55

know, am I then a contributing factor in in a in an outcome I don't want? You know, so then I was like, no, I'm not going to write those things. You know, it's like I'm going to be here to tell her those things. And so, in the same way, I think that glimmer of like what work can I do? What how will I raise her? How like could imagine if I could have another child? like these like I needed to have these things to dream of so that I didn't fall into accepting this as my fate >> and I understand that it was a a journey

00:35:24 - 00:36:27

that was introspective because I can only imagine how much health was a priority for you at that time. >> Yeah. >> And obviously then you started looking at ways you could help other people. >> Yeah. >> So it was a part self part I want to fight for something greater than myself. all in one moment. >> What What was the infancy of the idea for what is now Swish? >> So, it's funny. I um when I was, you know, technically better, you know, I I'd finished all of my treatment, all of

00:35:56 - 00:36:52

my surgeries, and they were like, "Okay, you know, you're but you're amazing." >> So, this is six months. >> So, this is No, this is like about 15 16 months, maybe 16. Yeah. But yeah, round round just a bit under a year and a half and I'm like cancer free which is amazing. you know, I have a very high, this particular accounts had a really high reoccurrence rate in years two and two, four and five, you know, so to get to the 5year mark is a really, you know, very big deal. And so it's like you're

00:36:24 - 00:37:09

technically better and you're finished now that you're not going to see your oncologist anymore. You're not seeing your surgeon. Like you're finished, >> but there's still that lingering fear. >> I'm sick. I'm actually unwell. I'm like I I'm I'm like so they're technically like you know hospitals are there to make sure you don't die. That's and that's their job. They're finished and they're like thank youing sick. You don't feel great.

00:36:46 - 00:37:50

>> I feel terrible. I'm like my skin's gray. I've like I'm so unwell. So I start to basically go how am I going to build up my life? So in in funnily enough in this period you know when I was doing the personal training and Pilates my plan B in case I didn't get a TV career was to be a naturopath and so I started a degree I did two years of a naturopathy degree >> this is all in a decade by the way >> I was very busy I was very busy >> I did two years of naturopathy degree

00:37:18 - 00:38:01

and I remembered how like when we did nutrition and like greens greens greens greens greens so I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do greens. I'm going to have greens. How many freaking stir fries can I eat in a day?" And then I was like, "Okay, if I could do like blend and then smoothies." And then I was like, "Okay, I could make it like a drink, like a milkshake, blah blah blah." So, I started to make green smoothies and I started to feel like at home and I'm

00:37:40 - 00:38:28

mixing all kinds of half of them are terrible and I'm tipping them down the sink, half are good, but I starting to feel like this shift. And I say to my sister, "You have to make this thing I'm having. I I feel so good." And she's like, she's like, "Oh god, God, I'm not going to upset her. She's been through so much. I'll drink the sludge or whatever makes her happy." So, she's drinking and eventually she's like, "You know what? I this is really this is

00:38:04 - 00:38:42

okay. I feel good, too." And for months, I'm making these random things and we're drinking them and we feel good. And I say to her, "I feel amazing. Like, imagine if everyone had this." And I was like, "I thought it was just me cuz I'm coming off a low base. Anything's going to feel good." I said, "But you were healthy and you feel good." She's like, "I feel amazing." I was like, "This is there's something in this." And people

00:38:23 - 00:39:06

had started to say like, "What are you drinking and what's this stuff?" And that's the inception essentially of how Swish began. It was like literally I was like, "Let's do this." People would ask us for the recipes and I would write them on a post-it note. And then there were so many people asking, I would prewrite the post-it note. Then I was like, "It's [ __ ] inefficient. I'm not doing I hate inefficiency, right?" I was like, "I can't prewrite all the Post-it

00:38:45 - 00:39:36

notes and peel them off." And so then I said to her, "Let's do a book." And she's like, "Yeah." And and I was like I had written right kind of you know sort of at the um you kind of just towards the end of my chemo I wrote a memoir and it was a bestseller and I did it with Alan and Unwin. So I was like I'll go back to Alan and Unwin and they'll obviously understand that green smoothies are a huge thing and they'll want to do it. And they laughed. They

00:39:11 - 00:40:04

laughed so hard they roared with laughter. So then I said to my agent, "Oh, can you like ask another publisher?" And he's like, "Yeah." And he it was the joke of the industry. This book was the joke of the industry. It um everyone said no. And I mean everyone I mean from like all your main publishers down to like some small two bit publisher out the back of Wagger. Everybody said no about this book. And I was like [ __ ] this. I'm going to self-publish. And back then which is I

00:39:37 - 00:40:28

think is so funny Canva wasn't around. So to write to do it really what's essentially now glorified PDF you had to get a book designer. I had to get this book designer. She was based in Italy and she made this like book and we wrote all the recipes. We photographed it in my apartment and I remember I took this one meeting with this book publisher who was like kind enough to do me a favor to take a meeting and I was like what would I sell this book for? And he was like sell the book. No one's

00:40:02 - 00:40:59

going to buy that book from you. And I was like oh and he was like you're going to give it away for free and you'll be lucky if anyone takes it. And I was like oh I was like oh I was going to sell it. He was like, "Oh, maybe like 99 at most." And I was like, "Fuck you. I'm not doing that." So, we finished the book. We put it up on Amazon and iTunes. We did it for $14.99. We went to bed and we woke up and it was number one. And then they came, the publisher came back and was like, "Oh,

00:40:31 - 00:41:19

>> isn't it interesting? >> Little hasty on that. I think we'll do the book." And it's still number one in its category. Hasn't been outsold. It's still, it went on, it's been over a decade. It's super green smoothies is what put green smoothies on the map in this country. Nobody had heard of a green smoothie until we launched that book. We were like on all the TV shows making green smoothies and people are like, "Why is she putting spinach in the

00:40:55 - 00:41:38

blender?" People didn't even own a blender. But that's I I'm really proud of that, you know, because it was like and people still be like, "Oh my god, I got the smoothie book. I have the book in my kitchen." I'm like, "That's amazing." And that's the origins of our brand. When the book came out, I was like, "Okay, why don't we start?" We'd already started a blog sharing recipes and health tips and stuff like that. And I was like, "Okay." And we didn't really

00:41:16 - 00:42:01

know like back then people didn't talk about founder content. We just did founder content. That's just what you did. You just did, you were building a community. You didn't call it that, though. You were just like, you had a blog and you just shared stuff and you got on socials and you did stuff. And then I was like, "Okay, when they sell the book, we will too." And that was the beginning of our Shopify store and the beginning of the business. You've said that the wellness market is

00:41:37 - 00:42:38

oversaturated and people are tuning out. Why? >> There's so much misinformation. There's so much I think there's so many brands. So many brands. So many brands. Every day there's some new brand that pops up. But do they all have longevity? Do they all stay? Not necessarily. You know what I mean? So then people are like, "Oh, but I was having this one and then they're gone and now there's another one." And then people are like, it's so um there's so much lying. Oh my god,

00:42:08 - 00:43:03

there's so much lying. It's outrageous. It's actually outrageous. And the other thing that I think is really interesting is you'll have brands that will have said, for example, for for 5 years, we're only vegan. And then when the collagen kind of wave hits, they're like, no, we don't believe in collagen because it's not vegan. And then when they're realizing, oh, hang on a minute, collagen's really here to stay. They're like, oh, except this one, which now

00:42:36 - 00:43:30

we're also into. So, well, hang on a minute. The customer now doesn't trust. So, they don't like there's so much mistrust. There's so much mistrust. One minute, you know, you'll have a brand doing candles and the next minute they're doing a greens powder. It's like, well, what does your brand stand for? You know, you're like, are you actually, you know, a wellness brand? You know, so this is the thing. And then there's so much shoddiness that goes on, you know, like people selling like

00:43:04 - 00:43:59

essentially ingredients that are banned in this country, but they'll sell them because like, you know, they the like FS doesn't have time to like run around policing everyone. The TGA doesn't have time to run around policing everyone. So that stuff happens. And then when you say to people, oh no, you can't have, for example, Lion's Mane, that's a banned ingredient in this country. They're like, oh, that's weird. But I just saw brand X have it. I'm like, you know, so then you're you're trying

00:43:31 - 00:44:20

to follow a set of rules and standards that not everyone's following. And so then people start to get confused and then they don't believe anyone. And then you've got if you add to that then people promoting products that they don't actually take, you know? So it's like you've got this whole um kind of like people getting paid to promote products they don't actually take. So then people feel they feel like the whole thing's disingenuous. So if you're looking at the market as a

00:43:55 - 00:44:57

health brand and you're seeing the tom foolery um and the market you know whether you want to play the right card or not the market are uneducated totally >> they're unaware and they can go buy from a competitor >> totally. So, so then how should someone navigate a health and well-being brands in spite of all these things taking place? >> I think like if you're the consumer, the thing is like you have to look at a brand and go where is this brand besides online because online is the wild west,

00:44:26 - 00:45:16

right? Like it is it is a good way of phrasing. I think it is. It's like anybody can set up a website and anybody can set up a Shopify store and like let's face it, I could be concocting something in my garage with my foot and you wouldn't know, right? >> I've had conversations with people that have run garage operations for supplement brands. Yes, >> there you go. It's common place. So, it's common place, right? So, then you go, okay, if I want a brand, if I want a

00:44:51 - 00:45:52

level of assurityity, where else can I get this brand? Can I get this brand, for example, at Chemist Warehouse at Price Line? Is this brand TGA approved? Like, what are some things that I'm looking for here? Has this brand been around for a decade? Has this brand like what's some other stuff here that goes besides like just a pretty website with pretty pictures cuz anybody could do that. My 12-year-old could do that, you know? I think people have to ask themselves like the serious question,

00:45:22 - 00:46:30

you know? I think also like people should also ask themselves what is it that I want for my body? What is it that I need? You know, I think also like like if you like the look of a brand because XY Z, great. But then do a bit of reading, you know, like you des like do you know what makes me laugh? You'll spend 40, not you, but like people, me included, right? I'll spend 45 minutes in a change room for a t-shirt, right? I'll spill coffee on it, then I'll be t-shirt's ruined. But people will buy

00:45:56 - 00:46:52

products for their health with way less care. Way less care than their t-shirt. You know, you can buy another t-shirt. You can buy new sneakers. If you smash your phone, you can get another one. But you'll never be able to buy another body. You just can't. Show me where you can go. Where are you going to go to get another one? That one that you've got is the only one you've got. Yet, people will give it no care, no regard. They just whip it and expect it to drag it along and like survive under like the

00:46:24 - 00:47:27

intensity that you give it, yet you'll spend 45 minutes agonizing whether the seam on this t-shirt's perfect. >> So, if the internet and e-commerce is the wild west, >> y >> um how do consumers know who to trust? >> Um I think like don't be afraid to reach out to a brand. See if you get an answer you like. Do they have an in-house naturopath? ask them if you know like actually uh is it stocked somewhere else? Can you like look at reviews? You know, look at reviews. You know, I see

00:46:55 - 00:48:00

so often I'll see something and I'll be like and then you'll go to the Instagram and it's like there's nothing here. Does this brand have events? Can you see other people having this product? Ask your friends. Ask them what are you having? What are you consuming? What do you like? you know, like do some education for yourself, you know, and you know, it takes a lot to survive in this industry and you're only going to survive, I think, as a brand when you really produce excellent products. So,

00:47:27 - 00:48:27

also ask yourself, this brand been around 3 months, 3 years, a decade. >> And do people shop in your opinion on brands or on products? Because in the health and well-being space, it it seems like it it can really depend. Yeah, I think people are product loyal. That's my opinion. I think people are product loyal and I think that's that makes sense. So you would have for example this particular greens powder by this brand that you love, but you will have this particular fish oil by another

00:47:57 - 00:48:53

brand that you'd love. I think there are like a small cohort of people, my favorite people who are brand loyal. We love those people. You know, um it's a little bit like your wardrobe. you know, you might get this top from, you know, you know, and I think it's like you when you find a product that works, you know, when sometimes people be like, "This product's been working really well. So, I think I'm going to try another one." >> But why? It's actually going great for

00:48:28 - 00:49:21

you. >> Cuz if you think back like to Black Moores, etc., Like when when I think back and I flick through cataloges of you know old ads from older brands in the health and wellbeing space they would create a product that was fantastic that you know had a buzz or sensation around it and they could ride that for decades. >> Legacy brands they had no competition. They produced a lot of single ingredient um products. So like vitamin C iron. So it's like single these are single ingredients you know.

00:48:54 - 00:49:47

>> Um >> yeah they those guys did not have a lot of competition for a long time. where it's very different now because you could establish a moat around your brand if you will because you have the factory, the suppliers, the relationships totally black with the right partners. Now anyone can set up a shop, you know, uh use their feet in their garage, make a supplement and launch a product and and what what do you think is happening in the market? Because I can imagine if you're at the

00:49:20 - 00:50:11

helm of well-being brands and these trends are popping up there there does feel the need to jump on the same train if you want your business to survive. Yeah. But do you know it's funny? I was saying the other day, I think it's never been easier ever to start a business. I think it's never been easier, right? It's Instagram. You can basically do Instagram ads. You can set up a Shopify store in minutes. You can get a website in minutes. You've got eyestock. You've got like a thousand photos. You can do

00:49:44 - 00:50:35

AI. It has literally never been easier to start a business, but it's never been harder to keep one. It's never been harder to keep one. >> Oh my god. You're right. because it feels like the the risk threat >> because everybody can start one. So, it's never been harder to keep one because everybody's starting one. Everyone wants to be a founder. Everyone thinks a founder journey is super exciting. Everyone wants to, you know, and that's fine, but it's never been

00:50:10 - 00:51:08

harder to keep a customer, to keep their loyalty, to earn their loyalty, to treasure them and look after them because it's so noisy. And not just in our space, in every space. So if someone is listening to this and thinking to themselves, I want to survive. >> Yeah. >> What is the playbook in your opinion? >> I think the playbook is you. Yes. To your to your question like you see all these trends popping up and you're like I want to do it. But is it right for your brand? Because the thing

00:50:39 - 00:51:34

is too is like every time you follow a trend that's cash flow that you've invested. You better know that you need to know your customer. Is your customer going to buy that? Like just because it's a trend like let's just like what's an example of a trend say that um we haven't done like like say say bars right protein bars for example so that's a massive trend and we could do a protein bar but we haven't wanted to. Why? Because we're investing our cash flow in something else that we feel is

00:51:07 - 00:51:45

of greater value and greater importance. I'm not saying protein bars aren't important but just for our brand that we feel is of greater importance. Right? So we're obsessed with longevity supplements. So that's where we want to spend our money. So, if you're going to be a follower, like, "Oh my god, there's protein bars. Oh my god, now there's collagen. Oh my god, now there's this." You're not going to stand for anything. So, you've got to decide, you really

00:51:26 - 00:52:08

want to build a mode around your brand and you're like, "You guys are going to come to me when you need this, that's what you'll be able to build." But if you're going to be everything, you're going to run out of cash and that's a bigger problem. >> So, it's almost like you're shooting yourself in the foot. >> Shooting yourself in the foot >> by trying to chase trends. >> Correct. And if you think about like collagen gummies and all these kind of

00:51:47 - 00:52:38

things that come and come and go, >> gummies is a great one. >> They have a short lifespan, right? >> Correct. And if you if you're a brand that's like we're all about gummies, cool, double down. But if you're like, for example, I do not believe in gummies, right? They are like if you want a gummy, roll on down the sugar aisle in the lolly aisle at the supermarket. I love a lolly. Go there. Right? But most most supplements that are a gummy, the first ingredient's like

00:52:12 - 00:53:07

generally glucose. The second ingredient is gelatin because that's what fills up the gummy. And you're very very hardressed to get anything that's of an active ingredient that's actually of any benefit. Now, that's a stand that we make. Now, if you're a brand that does gummies, no worries. But you can't be everything. You better pick what you're going to be or you're not going to survive. If if I may be selfish here for a moment, I understand creatine >> a way uh a sports scientist explain it

00:52:41 - 00:53:31

to me. >> Yes. >> Basically, it's like if you're lifting a weight Yes. >> and you get to the 10th rep and you're struggling. >> Yes. >> You're there's a compound in the muscle um that atrophies. But if you have creatine, it allows you to get that extra one or two reps in. >> Correct. >> Because it's like resupplying correct the muscle tissue to Yes. >> get the extra energy in. >> Yes. when you're thinking about a supplement like creatine for example and

00:53:05 - 00:53:59

how it's been now attached to gummies and then we've seen we've seen the news come out where uh you know these brands are coming out that don't even have the key ingredient >> I know I know I know I know and can I tell you how annoying it is because and it's annoying for the customer who's spending their hard-earned money and then they'll say stuff like I just don't think creatine works and it's No, it's not creatine that doesn't work. It's the

00:53:32 - 00:54:32

creatine gummy that you're taking that has basically no creatine in it. So, it's like this is sort of where coming back to like people have got to ask themsel if I if I was running a restaurant, right? And when you go to order a steak, you know, it's like this a 200 g t-bone. This is 150 gram. I fill it. Yet people will roll down and they'll buy a creatine gummy and not ask themselves how much creatine's actually in this thing, you know, or patches. And it's like the p like the patches are not

00:54:02 - 00:55:07

approved by the TGA. They don't work, you know, like that same sort of thing. It's like ask yourself what am I actually getting here? And like take some responsibility for yourself, you know? So yeah, it's like you can't I think it's so funny when both brand uh yeah from from both perspectives when customers don't like look after themsel properly. It's like that's your hard-earned money. Look after it. Like you deserve to. If you want to feel good, then get the right thing. You

00:54:34 - 00:55:21

know, you're not going to get the like you're not going to pay for 150 gram steak, but actually imagine if you found out it was really just cauliflower but with the steak seasoning, you know, but it was a steak, you know, like like a vegan steak. >> Like steak doesn't work, >> you know? Steak doesn't work. It's like was vegan, you know? It's like it's like when the vegan collagen trend was happening, right? And everyone was like, "Oh, I'm looking for a vegan collagen."

00:54:58 - 00:56:07

But it's like, but technically collagen is an animal product. So if you're vegan, no problem. But just don't then exit that that des that desire for collagen, you know. But you can't have it both ways, you know. But brands coming back to wanting to be um to piggyback will be like, we're a vegan brand, so this plant thing's vegan collagen. Like no, in the same way, this cauliflower with steak seasoning is not a steak. And how do you convince consumers that they need a product if they don't know what it is?

00:55:32 - 00:56:22

>> Don't set out to convince, I think, is number one. So, like I think if you're trying to convince, then you're trying too hard to sell. And then I think people can feel you're trying to sell them. You know, I think it's like my thing is is like you want to buy it, buy it. You don't want to buy it, don't buy it. I'm just going to share with you how your life could be better. You don't want to be better, no problem. But here's like here's what the here's the

00:55:57 - 00:56:56

information, you know, >> but I don't want to um I start really trying to sell you and it's like you just be like, "Yeah, see straight away. >> Cross my arms, my guards." >> It's like >> it's [ __ ] tense, you know? You know, >> you can smell it >> and desperation is is repulsive. >> I don't want to sell you anything. I don't want to convince you. >> When you're ready, you'll convince. when you go, you know what, I want this for

00:56:26 - 00:57:23

myself, then then you'll, you know, come down the funnel. >> And what's something that founders can do to make their product content more engaging and less of a lecture? >> Be yourself. You know, like it's funny, people go, "Oh, founder content so critical, so critical, so critical." But like lots of brands got built without founder content. Founder content really, like when we started and were doing founder content, it wasn't called that. I don't know, we just like picked up our

00:56:55 - 00:58:04

phone and just made content, you know, but not everybody is comfortable in front of a camera, you know. So, if you're not, then find another way to share or or put your message out there or find a way to share that's feels true to you. But I think ultimately if you don't think of it as selling, if you just think of it as talking, that will help you, you know, like, and I would say if I was to think back to when I first wanted to get into TV, just practice. Lift up your camera and start.

00:57:30 - 00:58:23

Don't press go on it. Don't think it's going to go live or whatever. And just practice. Just practice. you should be doing. If you're not comfortable, if you want to do founder content and you're not comfortable, you better be [ __ ] holding your phone and doing hours every day until you're so comfortable. >> Put in the reps. >> Yeah. Put in the reps. Amen. >> And um how has your educational strategy evolved over the years? Because it feels like consumers are way more educated now

00:57:57 - 00:58:46

than they've ever been. >> Way more. Way more. Which is really good. Way more. Which is really good. And also it the the benefit of that is that it allows you to lean on references that you couldn't you know a decade ago. We didn't have Hubberman wasn't around a decade ago. So you couldn't be like hey guys here's Huberman a scientist who you all know and respect and he says this and everyone goes cool that's great. So it's like it evolves as as as trends and

00:58:21 - 00:59:19

things evolve you're able to lean on more tools. So, in a way, you didn't have that before because it's if you just look at what's going on for the the you know, the customer is a normal person just like you, right? They're holding their phone, they're scrolling, they talk about the same stuff at dinner like you do. So, what are those things? Who are those people that they're talking about, you know, and what are those examples? What is that? And that's the stuff that you have

00:58:50 - 00:59:49

to use, you know, if they're, for example, you know, I was saying to somebody recently cuz they were like trying to pitch to get into a retailer. They were like, "Oh, but the buyer, the buyer, the buyer." And I was like, "The buyer's just a normal person sitting in bed with his or her phone scrolling. So what who are they following so that your brand is going to pop up on their radar so that when you do your outreach they're like yeah I have seen that brand before. They're not somebody who's like

00:59:19 - 01:00:20

literally in a little closet by themsel with no access to the real world. It's just a person you know and and your customers and their education is the same. So it's like what can you use that they are aware of that you can piggyback on? >> So I want to talk about gut versus data. You've said that the philosophy or your philosophy for customer feedback is listen but don't always listen. >> It is >> how do you decide when to follow intuition over public opinion?

00:59:49 - 01:00:41

>> I'm heavy I'm heavy on gut and intuition and very low on public opinion um as is evidenced by my entire life. >> Like pay attention to it but like don't always >> super absorbed by it. And I think it's for two reasons. And the reason I believe it in every aspect, but specifically first starting with the customer and specifically in wellness is I think people don't know what they want because it's not their job to know. So that's why I don't listen because they

01:00:15 - 01:01:03

in theory like they would have still be if we were waiting they'd still be like, "Oh, I know vitamin C. How about iron?" I'm not taking anything away from those. But that's all they knew until it was like, "Oh, now they know there's greens powders, sleep powder. Now they like so they're getting educated as the brands are producing the stuff. It's the brand's job. It's our job to be at the cutting edge of science and then tell them. So I can't wait for them to tell

01:00:40 - 01:01:38

me what they want because they don't know what they want yet. It's and nor are they supposed to. But also if you ask them always what they want, they might go like for example let's just say I think you know green powder is a great example or even like a nad booster. If id said, "Hey guys, we're going to make a nad booster. Does anyone want that?" I guarantee you probably 99% of people would have said, "I don't think so." Because let's face it, they've lived up

01:01:08 - 01:01:59

until then without it. So why would they suddenly go, "Oh my god, that's the thing I was missing." You know, so they're not going to know they need it until you educate them and explain, "Hey, here's what it is. Here's how it's going to change. Here's how it's better for you." So if you're waiting for and that ties in I think with founders just needing everyone to be in agreeance and clapping with them and telling them why their ideas are good. This is the

01:01:34 - 01:02:45

problem with chat GPT, right? Because it's like an echo chamber. Every time we type something in, it goes great idea. It's like shut the [ __ ] up. Don't tell me that. Like I need you to like obviously pick apart anything I'm telling you, you know, because you don't want only to hear yes, do that. You've got to have some like that that sense of like this I feel this you know you need to have the founder journey is not easy right so if you don't like get comfortable with

01:02:09 - 01:03:00

people being like I don't know about that and you've got to you're driving the bus right you got to be like guys absolutely this is going to be great and then you jump and you work it out on the way down. >> I like what you said earlier about how much you've lent into grit to be able to propel your career >> both in media and now in Swiss. >> Yeah. >> When you think about grit, are there any other ingredients that you've lent into that you felt have given you an

01:02:35 - 01:03:28

advantage over the competition? >> Risk. Without a doubt, risk. You have like I have a high appetite for risk. So like when we started Swish for example and I had u my TV career back then people did not start brands right you were the face of another brand you could be you know um for example one time I was like an ambassador for Westfield you know like that's what you did you didn't start your own brand everyone when I started Swish was like the hell are you doing that for you know like that was

01:03:01 - 01:03:58

not a thing I was like just going to get paid for that >> yeah exactly everyone's like down >> get paid by another brand >> yeah get paid by another brand what the hell you going to put your own money for, you know, doing like why are you going to like put your own money in? But like that appetite for risk I definitely have. And I also think the more you um like grit, it's a muscle. The more you exercise it, the more it gets stronger, but also evidence I would also say is

01:03:30 - 01:04:13

the third thing. So evidence that you can do hard stuff, evidence that you can get through hard times, evidence that you your intuition and gut instinct is correct, right? collect that also along the way. It's a that's also a muscle, right? The evidence muscle. So then when you get a hurdle, you're like, "Hang on a minute." You don't you don't fall apart. You're like, "I've I've done this or I've done something similar or I've been able to get through something

01:03:52 - 01:04:51

similar." So it's like those three things that building of grit, building of risk, and building of evidence as you go that lets you know, you know what, keep going. >> Now, when you think about risk, a few things come to mind. Um, you know, having worked in sales for so long, there's common objections that come up. Can I throw them at you? >> Do them. Do them. Can you like >> Yeah, let's fruit ninja them back at me. Okay. So, the first one being, >> I agree, but it's not the right time

01:04:21 - 01:05:23

right now. I need my life to be in better alignment before I jump into this. >> It will never be. It'll never be the right time. And if you're not going to honestly like jump, then you're probably not the right like temperament for doing this because the whole temperament of a founder is really somebody who's like jumps. You have to jump. If you're going to wait for everything to be right, it'll never be right because you'll never have enough money in the bank as a

01:04:52 - 01:05:52

like safety net. The kids will never be old enough. No, nothing will ever be perfect. And in fact, the longer you wait, the it's not the harder it is to start, but the less likely you are to start. So you know my sister who um is a co-founder in the business with me and I think this is a really good example. So she wanted to start a business. Originally she wanted to start back when blogs were very new and it was a big ad advertising model, right? She wanted to start a blog. It was a bit like Time Out before Timeout

01:05:22 - 01:06:18

was around like places to go, restaurants to eat at or whatever. Now she spoke about that for years years and never did anything. She doesn't have a high-risisk profile. She doesn't and she would say that, you know, which is what makes her and I a good partnership, right? Because like I'm like jump thema >> like let's just send it. >> Yeah. Just like send it like you know she's like what you know. Um but I also need somebody who's a little bit like hey have you actually read the fine

01:05:50 - 01:06:52

print because like I just see you signing all kinds of random documents you haven't read. I'm like oh I don't read fine. But like so she and she laughs, right? She goes, "I talked about that starting that for years and didn't because you can't like how just start. Just [ __ ] start, >> you know." >> Second challenge. >> I don't have enough time >> to make this possible. >> Correct. And if you think that, you are correct. >> Oh, okay.

01:06:21 - 01:07:06

>> And if and if you you're literally limited only by your thoughts. And if you think you don't have enough time, 100% you should just stay on the couch. You know what? Because you are correct. You will have to make the time if you want this to work. If you think you're not going to have the time, you're right. >> How do I make the time? >> Just like that. You will cut out the [ __ ] that just does not make a difference. If you want it enough, it will be very easy to be like, I do not

01:06:44 - 01:07:44

need four hours of Netflix five nights a week. You will cut that. >> You will make time. You will 100% time. You will get so efficient at getting stuff done quickly. You only do the stuff that moves the needle. You just move fast. >> Okay. Number three. I don't know anyone who can help me with this. >> You don't need anyone. Have you heard of the internet? You literally do not need anybody. You can set up like whether you can find product if you're wanting to create a product or make a product. If

01:07:13 - 01:08:04

you're in a service business, you can like it's never been easier. the internet is there and if you're waiting the reason people go I don't know anybody is really they want the handholding it's not the skill it's the handholding they want someone to hold their hand and tell them it's going to be all right and if you need that you're also not the right temperament because it's [ __ ] not going to be all right quite a lot of the time it is not all right but that it's you you will you'll

01:07:39 - 01:08:31

be all right the situation might not be right but you'll be all right and you'll get through it you don't need somebody you can choose to do it with somebody but you don't need somebody. >> Now, the final one, >> uh, and I hear this most often, >> I don't have enough money >> or resources >> to even begin to entertain this idea. >> Okay, there's an element of truth to this. There is an element of truth to this, but not 100%. So, you can start

01:08:05 - 01:09:03

anything pretty almost anything on a small scale and it's never been easier to do that, right? Because the barriers to entry are so much less now. So, you can start on a small scale. So, say for example, we do supplements now where minimum runs are like a h 100,000, but it wasn't always like that and we and some things aren't like that. So, you can start small and there's things like pre-orders and there's things like so you you'll find an excuse if you want it. There's no shortage of excuses, but

01:08:34 - 01:09:41

if you want it, like if you actually want it, none of those things will enter your mind. None of them, you know? So I think if you're the kind of person who's like got all these like you know reasons why >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So if someone has a lowrisk profile >> can or should they become an entrepreneur? >> You no you can. No I take that back. You can if you have a low risk profile you can. But I think that you will it'll be slower right because business

01:09:09 - 01:10:13

is about speed. You do have to move quickly, I think, to grow, right? So, I think if you have a lowrisk profile, you probably will maybe are better suited to a business that doesn't require mass. You know, you're, for example, creating a service and you only need to service 20 people at a time. You're like, let's just say for example, say you're a life coach, right? That's a lowrisk business, right? you're not having to prodely produce product. You only need a handful

01:09:41 - 01:10:42

of clients because you're capped by your hours. So that you can if you have a low-risk profile, but the business you choose has to match it. You can't decide that you want to do a a different kind of business. Like a business like ours is not for somebody with a lowrisk profile. >> Okay. And if you think about your appetite for risk, >> um you've said your ability to stomach risk has grown. M >> is that an emotional evolution or a strategic one? >> Emotional. I think it's emotional. I

01:10:11 - 01:10:55

think it's I think it's evidence-based because it's like as I've gotten through different things, I'm like I look back on them and I'm like, "Oh, now that doesn't seem like such a big deal, you know?" So, I'm like, it's kind of like jumping. I remember as a kid, I used to always say to my mom and dad, um I used to have this saying, "I will rise to the challenge." And it was about jumping over the coffee table, you know, cuz you guys think I can jump over the coffee

01:10:34 - 01:11:30

table? And they were like, "No." And I'm like, "Watch, you know, and the more you jump over the coffee table, the more you're like, it's actually not that high, you know, and so it doesn't really seem like a big deal anymore." So then when a bigger coffee table's presented, you're like, "Yeah, I can do that." And it doesn't really phase you as much, I think, because you know that you can get over it. you've been through so many speed bumps that

01:11:01 - 01:12:06

you're like, h, you know, I had this founder friend of mine the other day. We're texting backwards and forwards and she was like blah blah blah blah blah and then there was a class action lawsuit. I was like what? And she's like yeah I was like oh. So see that's like I was like what the [ __ ] And she's obviously further along in her muscle and her risk. She it was honestly so far down the chat it was like nothing. And I was like, Jesus Christ. >> Okay. Now, in the supplement health

01:11:34 - 01:12:30

space, like consumables that people buy recurringly, >> is there any risk around introducing new products >> and can this disrupt the current business model? >> Yes, definitely. It definitely can. And also um you know sometimes we talk about like if you have multiple flavors of a product right do people end up just moving between them you know and you kind of you didn't really grow anything they're just moving between them you know I think the re that the the risk is always

01:12:02 - 01:13:11

that you've only got your cash is finite and that's the reality of a business right whether it's investor money or your own money your cash is finite so every decision you make is like okay do I do more Do I invest it here like and make this product or do I not do that and do something else? You know what I mean? like you're always forced to choose what am I doing here and actually am I going to ultimately grow the business either in revenue or in customer numbers or like you know how am I growing the

01:12:37 - 01:13:31

business and it's funny because sometimes we'll be like you because I'm very big on product right we need new product I'm always screaming right at Marcus product I need product I need new product >> something exciting new exactly >> and then Um, coming back to limited resources, it's not just money, it's also your team, right? Okay. Well, your team, if they're producing content about this product, they're now not doing that one. So, does that one get forgotten about? You know,

01:13:06 - 01:13:49

we always talk about like you've got like these three heroes, but are they really the heroes because they're the heroes, or are they just the three heroes because they're the three that you made the most product, the most content about? They're the ones you've only got x amount of advertising dollars. Are they the ones that you push the most? How do you know? I mean, lots of brands, you know, we sometimes talk about brands that have just one product, right? It's like, you know, like one

01:13:27 - 01:14:19

product and it's like you're able to invest everything just in that that one thing. And it's like, yeah, and then the argument is like, yeah, but if the customer doesn't want that one thing, you got nothing else to offer them. You're like, yeah, but I've spent all my resources in convincing you on that one thing. So it's it's a tricky one because I always feel like new products good because it's a way to get new market you know so like when we just launched the

01:13:53 - 01:14:42

active range it's like great that's a market that we hadn't really kind of tapped in before I wanted to get into that space you know it's gives people something new people love new that's why fashion's so great right got a new drop every five minutes and that it's like I'm so envious I'm like oh you're so lucky every third day you're like new t-shirt new colors you know and it's hard to do that in wellness cuz yourq views are so high the production time is

01:14:17 - 01:15:12

like 6 months plus you know so you're not like you know and you don't want to be stuck with stuff that you've sold into your retailer that actually you don't want you know like so it's like you've got to really decide is this product it's a consumable but it's not a t-shirt you know if people get hooked on this product and they love it you can't then pull it three months later and be like a >> it's got to be all in >> you got to be all in Now, you talk about

01:14:45 - 01:15:36

with all of this in mind, uh, that your your intention is to create the Swiss family, >> and this is something that you didn't come up with, that your community just spouted back to you. It's like, hey, we feel like we're a part of a family. >> How do you intentionally cultivate so much community that they feel like they're a part of uh an inside club? >> I think it's like we we share beyond just like, hey, is this product, you know, blah blah blah, but it's also like

01:15:11 - 01:16:00

what else is going on? So when we just went to London say in May for example to launch the brand it's like we launched the YouTube channel so you're coming with us you're like okay we're going to do this so you're on the experience with us and it's through the highs and lows. So recently we had this like packaging debacle and I was in Price Line and you saw me I was in there and it's like oh my god I think the packaging's been produced and it's the wrong size and now

01:15:36 - 01:16:30

I'm going to have to send it all back. So, it's not just it's like you're I'm sharing with you, you know, what we're doing and why we're doing it. And it's not always glitzy. It's not just like, "Oh, I'm going to a lunch. We've got an event." It's not just all that. You're seeing us, for example, shleing boxes. We're like in the car. Mahar and I, for example, earlier in the year, also on our YouTube, we had this really, we don't disagree, like we disagree a lot,

01:16:03 - 01:17:03

but we don't have big fights a lot, but we had a really, really big fight earlier in the year. And she was on the YouTube channel talking about like, we had this big fight. I'm really annoyed with her. And I was like, this is my perspective, blah, blah, blah. So you're we're not just like shiny shiny, you know, and and maybe it's not sort of intentional. Maybe it's just because of the way everything began. It's just like we're real. It's like sometimes when I'm

01:16:33 - 01:17:35

like at Aldi and someone will stop me and I'll be like, "My god doing in here. >> You're a normal." >> And I'm like, "Yeah, >> wait. Oh my god. I'm in Aldi. How'd I get here?" >> You should do that. Just start freaking people out. Whoa. >> Oh my god. I was like, just getting my groceries. So something we like to ask everyone um uh in conclusion of our discussions here is around the concept of agency >> and for me it's you know sometimes

01:17:04 - 01:18:20

people think we named it agency because I have an agency but it's all about how people take high agency >> for you and all this energy you poured into this brand and your content and the constant innovation around products and how you can bring great cool new innovative supplements to help women um into the world. What does taking agency mean to you? >> I think for me it's honoring how lucky you are to be alive. Every day that you wake up, somebody else will be literally wishing

01:17:42 - 01:18:41

that they had that one more day, right? Some every day people will wake up, they'll make their toast and coffee and not know it's their last day on Earth. They'll get hit by a bus. they'll have a car crash, anything. They'll not know or they'll get devastating news or anything will happen. So, every day that you get to live, you deserve to look after yourself, to honor your body, you deserve to feel good. It's you're not an afterthought. You know what I mean? I think so often people are like, women, I

01:18:12 - 01:19:11

think a lot in particular too, it's like, make sure everyone's okay. Make sure everyone's okay. But also, you deserve to feel not just okay, but great. You know, you deserve that. Having that, honoring that you're alive and every day you get, you should live not just physically well, but emotionally, you deserve to feel emotionally well, spiritually well, socially well. Like, you deserve that, you know, so that when your last day comes, you're like, you know what? I gave this all I could.

01:18:42 - 01:20:13

Like, I always say my favorite saying is like hand on heart, I gave it all I could. I guess one last thing I'm curious about when you were >> faced with your own mortality >> and the whole world turned upside down. >> What in that moment stuck with you that you felt changed how you saw how to I guess approach life? I think what I re one of my biggest memories was I I I watched this period of time when I was in treatment. I watched the seasons change, right? And it's something I'd like never really given

01:19:28 - 01:20:30

any thought to. I remember this one day going to radiation and like all the trees along Oxford Street in Paddington, all the leaves had gone down and I was like, I wonder if I'll live to see next autumn, you know? And I remembered like being on my balcony and everyone was like having like Christmas barbecues and stuff like and I could hear them speaking about like next year I'm going to blah blah in that same way we all do with like assuredness that we're going to have all of that you know and I was

01:19:58 - 01:21:09

like I always was like oh I'll live to 90 and I'll have kids and grandkids and I'll be able to travel and you know like you just you just assume and it's a healthy assumption. you're supposed to. But then I was struck by like actually that's I don't know where that assumption came from. That's almost um it's a privilege if you get it, but you're not guaranteed it, >> you know. And so the thing that's like the most overarching is like you're not guaranteed these days. So you

01:20:34 - 01:21:31

have you you absolutely have to live them. You know, it's living. You have to live them, you know, and you should enjoy them, you know. It's not to say it's always going to be enjoyable, but you squeeze the juice, you know. >> Squeeze the juice. What was your question? I actually forgot the question. >> No, you answered it eloquently and it's it's poetic. And I think what I'm what I'm nodding to here is like it seems like this moment signified a change in

01:21:04 - 01:21:53

your life. >> Yeah. And pairing that with your appetite for risk and your >> passion to just live it out and push everything to the max. It seems like you're not just here to make money. You're here to do good. You're here to help people. >> Like that >> that agency that you're taking. >> Yes. >> It it feels like this is all quagmire together. >> It's very personal, you know, like so sometimes, you know, when business is hard, you know, I I'll sometimes be like

01:21:28 - 01:22:16

and and wellness businesses particularly if you're like playing within the rule book, right? It's really tough, right? The TGA is not easy. Like like things are just it's not easy, you know. I just saw um we just went to see Gary Brea speak and he was like, "Oh, we have this." He's fantastic, right? And he's like, "I've got this, you know, supplements and I'm trying to get them into Australia." And I'm like, "Fuck, it's so hard here." And we're like, "We

01:21:52 - 01:22:51

know." You know, >> you're like, "Get in line at the club." >> Yeah. Get in line at the club. We behind us. We know it's so hard. And so when it's really hard like that and I'm like oh you know like but the point is is like >> I take nothing away from lip gloss. I love it but like it it's not it doesn't move me you know I I'm I'm my whole thing is I I hope and pray you feel amazing. I want you to feel I want you to wake up and be like I [ __ ] feel

01:22:21 - 01:23:08

amazing. You know that's what I want. You know that's my that's why it's personal to me. I feel like you're doing that and at such a epic scale. >> Thank you. >> And I like that you're giving everything the chef's kiss. And you do it because you love it. >> Thank you. >> And this has been a pleasure. >> My pleasure. >> Yeah. I wish we had more time. I wish we could unpack some more stuff, but >> my god, you're crushing it. It's been a

01:22:45 - 01:23:04

joy to sit here and listen to you. And >> pleasure. We certainly love to have you back. >> Please. I would love that. >> But um Sally, thank you so much. >> Thank you.