The Brutal Reason Most Startups Actually Fail | Steve Grace

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If you don't feel bad about failure, there's no point in it. You need to feel bad >> because the feeling bad is what drives you to work out what you're going to do [music] to learn and move forwards. >> You've said that failure is the only constant [music] in success. >> When you fail, your body goes through a reaction, right? There's a whole physical thing to failure, but it's how quickly you can get out of that. What experience [music] gives you with failure is it enables you to overcome

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the negative part of failure quicker. [music] If you look at the stats as to why businesses fail, the reality is the only reason startups fail is cuz the entrepreneur gives up. So if you look at the top sports people, they have the willingness that when all the odds [music] are against them, you've seen people win. If I look at how I dealt with failure when [music] I was younger to how I deal with it now, it doesn't hurt any less, but I've pushed through it quickly. [music] >> My life has been crazy up and down and

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it hasn't necessarily worked out the way that I would have thought. [music] >> I think that's what makes humans happy is new stuff. Once they overcome the fear of learning, then I [music] think you become happy. You've said that burnout isn't caused by hard work, it's caused by [music] misalignment. What do you mean? >> So, I think this episode is brought to you by [music] Wick Studio. Here at the agency podcast, we're building a community and we would love for you guys to be part of it. So, we

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would love to hear from you. What are you enjoying the most? What would you like to see more of? And what do you think might be missing? Drop a comment. Make sure you subscribe. And now on with the show. >> Steve Grace, welcome to the Agency podcast. >> So happy to be here. >> Now, I want to take people back to better understand your story and how you got here because I think what you're doing right now is really interesting. And there's not many people building a business to the likes of what you've

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built. Um your career had been I guess taken on multiple evolutions uh from serial recruiter and recruitment is a space in and of itself to media specialist which is quite a leap and now hospitality and the other two combined. Was this evolution a part of a greater plan or did this organically happen? >> I never had a plan with any of it. I never had a plan to get in recruitment and I don't think anyone ever does. I'm um I'm not a planner obviously. I kind of am an opportunistic I think is

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probably the best way I would describe that. >> How how would you define the difference between an opportunistic mentality and a planning mentality? >> I think that I think my greatest strength is I'm an optimist, but it's also my greatest weakness. Right? So when I see something that I like the look of, I just assume it's going to work and I think I'm just going to go and do it. So that's what that's opportunistic to me. It's like, oh, I never thought I'd plan to. So I

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can tell you where I did plan. So when I left school, I planned to go into finance and I went into finance and I hated finance. So after maybe a year and a half, I went into a recruiter and said, "I don't want to work in finance anymore." And they said, "You want to work here?" And I was like, "Sure, that's about as opportunistic [laughter] as it gets, right?" Um, and with the media, you know, I think we can talk about that in a bit more detail, but I fell into that. And with the

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hospitality, I fell into that. You know, those were not plans. Those were things where I saw something, I liked it, and I went and did it. I I was recently having a conversation with uh Daniel Priestley and he went to Neker Island and he was spending time with Richard Branson. Um and he said to me that the thing that surprised him the most about Richard Branson was that he was extremely fit for a 75-year-old like would run circles around most 20-year-olds how fit he was. Secondly, he's like very simplistic in

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his mindset of how to do business. And it basically dwelled down to he would fall in love with a problem and fall in love with the idea of solving a problem. That was it. And his personal brand strategy was just get on the front page of the papers. Do do you think that simplifying opportunities as what they are allows people to be more successful as an entrepreneur? >> I think it depends on the person. I think for me, yes, I'm a very simple person in the way that I think. I I'm not I I don't overthink things. I don't

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like complicated things. So, if I see something, I will always just try and simplify it. Like, if there's a problem, I go, "Well, why is everyone making it so complicated? Let's just break it down to the bare minimum. That's just how my brain works." But then, there's plenty of people out there where they can't cope with that. They want to get into the depths. They want to do the research. They want to understand every part of it. I'm not like that at all. So, I think if you're like me,

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absolutely. I think if you're not like me, then it could be the worst thing ever. So, I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do entrepreneurship. I think entrepreneurship is based off the individual that's doing it and it's done in so many different ways, which is why I hate these books that tell you this is how you do entrepreneurship because entrepreneurship is a completely personal thing. It's never the same for anybody and the way you do it is never the same and there's no right or wrong.

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There's fundamentals but they're more business fundamentals than they are entrepreneurship fundamentals. I don't think there's such a thing. So when you think about someone who's on a journey to becoming an entrepreneur um and let's say that there's no rulebook per se, there's one of one way of doing things for themselves. Um what what might some of the fundamentals be and then what might or should the mentality be around preparing oneself to create that one ofone journey?

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>> You can't prepare yourself. It's like having a child. It's impossible, right? Um I think it's traits. That's what I think it is. I think to be an entrepreneur you have to have certain traits. You don't have to have all of them. Don't you know and entrepreneurship comes in varying levels as well. You get people who start loads of things and everything different. You get people who do the same thing all the way through. So again, it's it's such a people use it as a word as a definitive

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thing, but it's it's really just an adjective, right? It just describes a way of doing things and a way of working. And I think entrepreneurs are people who can really cope well with ambiguity. They can ride ups and downs better than most. I won't say well because I don't think any of us write it well but they can write they they have the ability to deal with the stress and continue on. I think that's probably the key thing you need as an entrepreneur. You need to be willing to have no idea

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where you're really going and how you're going to do it and and still take the the step. But then you have to be really willing to commit to it and believe in it because if you don't believe in it, it ain't going to happen. So, what what is the trait of believing in something before it exists? >> That's a great question. I think it's the willingness to be able to push yourself when there's really no logical reason to. I think that's it could be. So, you see

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people in sports that do that, right? So, if you look at the top sports people, they have the willingness that when all the odds are against them, let's say it's a tennis game, right? They're two sets down and they're, you know, five love down. You've seen people win. Most people would not have the strength to be able to push that through and and there's part of that mental, but I think mental strength comes into everything. I think entrepreneurs have their backs against the wall all the

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time. If you look at the stats as to why businesses fail, like startups for example, if you really look at them, you know, there's always a lack of funding, market change, you know, all those kinds of things. The reality is the only reason startups fail is because the entrepreneur gives up. >> That's it. That's that's fundamentally it because there's always something you can do. Now, if you need to get rid of everyone in your business, go and get a job and do it in the evening, that

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business hasn't failed. It's still going. So, the day you close it is the day you give up. That's the day the business fails. Otherwise, you can go up and down. You can have 20 people go back down to one, go back down to doing it one day a week. There's but as long as you keep going, it doesn't fail. So the only reason a business fails unless there's something criminal or something like that is is essentially that the the entrepreneur gives up. Now that's sounds really harsh. Um but it's true.

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Do do you think that we have as a society a preconceived notion of what failure is? And and do you think that people have a an immediate tendency to avoid even the idea of failure at all costs? I think we used to. I think now it's celebrated too much. I think >> you think failure is celebrated too much. >> I do. I think the whole fail fast, go out and fail. You can't learn without failing. All those things are true, but I think it's celebrated too much. People are going out trying to fail, which is

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madness. Um I think that the world has become so comfortable with failure that they are not learning from it. They're like, "It's okay." They're justifying their failures because it's okay to fail. Suddenly, it's okay to fail. Everyone's going, "It's okay to fail. You need to fail. You won't learn anything if you don't fail." Right? That's true. And I think there are some I've I've done lots of research on this to, you know, soo

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myself every time I fail. But, and I'll come into that in a minute, but um the reality is it's not okay just to fail and then go and do something again if you don't take anything out of it. Right? And I think that's the problem. It's become so celebrated to fail and so okay to fail and it's so okay not to win that people fail and don't learn anything from it. And that's not okay. That's the worst thing. I believe from what I've read 85% success, 15% failure

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is apparently the optimum for learning and moving forwards. But also it depends how you define failure. It's not okay to fail if it really impacts other people and has massive negative impacts and it doesn't impact you. You know that's there's so many scenarios of failure. So people have, and this is kind of almost against what I said earlier, simplified it to such a point that it's okay to fail. It's not okay to fail. It's okay to fail and move forwards and learn and

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then but it's not okay to just fail and then go, "That's okay. That's fine. Don't worry about it." And and I think when you think about it um that we might need to define this and and get a little more nuanced because I think when I think of failure in some cases I've talked to entrepreneurs and they might say something like I tried meta ads doesn't work gave up. You could say well you maybe were too shortsighted and you didn't give it a good you really didn't

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push or lean into it or really try to figure it out. So then you're using failure in that case as a virtue signal of I can't do it, tried it, failed. You're not saying that per se. You're saying um that the the glorification of failure is is about that or you're thinking something else. >> So what you said is is not okay. Right? So if you say I've tried meta ads, it didn't work so I've stopped doing it. Okay. But what did you learn? Did you learn that Google ads might work? Did

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you learn that you needed to use Insta? Did you learn that you needed to use SEO? Did you know that you wanted to use content? You know what did you learn from that? If you go, we tried it, it didn't work, it's failed, fine, we failed fast, move on. But but what what have you learned from that? Why did it not work? What does that tell you? What does that tell you about what you're going to try next? So, it's whether they take the next step, right? If you just go, it didn't work. [ __ ] it. Move on.

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Boom. There's no benefit to that. No one's getting any benefit out of that. You're right. You haven't leaned into it. You haven't learned. You could lean into it and it could still not work, but you'll find out why. And then that will give you some answers as to what you're going to try next. If you don't get a road map of where you're going from your failure, if you don't have an outcome from your failure, then that's not okay. And and would you say that what like how

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how would you delineate the difference between quitting and failure? Because I think people can often get the two confused or or contrived with each other. >> I mean, quitting is just stopping, but stopping everything. I'm not doing anything anymore. I'm going to go do something completely different. Whereas failure, like I said, it gives you a pathway. That's that's my that that's my view of difference. Failing in something tells you what to do next. Quitting I mean it doesn't tell you anything.

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>> You've said that failure is the only constant in success. [laughter] >> Did I say that? >> You did. >> When did I say that? Did I say that today? >> But let's let's bone pick this because I think this is something that people often get confused. Uh they often maybe glaze over or they don't they don't like sit in the Kool-Aid and really try to digest the the nuances here. Right. So, I want you to take me way down the rabbit hole on like what failure really

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is. How do you define it? And the only caveat I would add here is if you think about failure, you know, is it a dead end or is it a moment where you're delaying the gratification? For for me, my relationship with failure is being like, okay, I've tried this. It's probably slowed me down a little bit from what I was expecting. I'm going to find an alternative path. I don't treat it like a dead end. >> Yeah. And it's not I don't think failure is ever a dead end. how you react to

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failure is so impactful as to where you go, right? So, we can come back to that because that's not answering your question. So, [laughter] I'm not going to get off track. I'm going to stick with your question. >> No, I'm with you with man. >> I'm tried. You know what my brand's like, guys. [laughter] >> Um, so, okay. I think failure should never be a dead end. Failure is really, it's testing to some degree, right? It's testing a market. It's testing a theory.

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It's testing a product. It's testing a customer. It's testing your ability to do something. You know, you could fail at managing the books. So, what have you learned? Well, you've learned that either you're going to have to go and educate yourself to to learn how to do that or you're going to have to employ someone to do that. That So, again, it's giving you options and pathways. So, failure really opens up and teaches you what to do next. Success does not necessarily teach you anything

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>> like almost like a like I imagine like a moment of multiple choice. It's like a checkpoint and it's like 18 pathways moving forward. We were talking just before about the books, right? Where you, you know, the um >> Oh, Goosebumps. >> Goosebumps books, right? Where you choose where you go and then you go to the next page, right? Bail is a bit like that. It gives you options. You know, here you've got to this point. This is what you've learned. What are you going

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to do next? >> It's not a dead end, but there's a choice that needs to be made. >> A choice that needs to be made. Are you going to, like you said, lean into something and try and learn more about it and maybe push it and maybe you're just not doing it right, or are you gonna Is it teaching you that that's just not the right route for you now? You need to go over and do that route over there. That's what it is. It's a It's a pathway creator in some respects.

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>> Oh, I like that. A pathway creator. >> Yeah, I just came up with that, too. I like that, too. I'm going to say that again. >> Ring to me. >> Not today. I'm going to say it [laughter] tomorrow. But it's Yeah, I think that's what it is. I think it gives you options. But the tough part about failure is when you see those options because when you fail, your body goes through a reaction, right? There's a whole physical thing to failure, which we can also talk about,

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>> but it's how quickly you can get out of that >> into the into the direction forwards. And everyone deals with that differently and everyone needs different amount of time. And what experience gives you with failure is it enables you to overcome the negative part of failure quicker. That's what I think. I think that if I look at how I dealt with failure when I was younger to how I deal with it now, it doesn't hurt any less, but I push through it quicker. >> How do you push through failure? Like

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what are your go-to >> for me? Laughter. >> Laughter. >> I'm not I'm not a serious person. >> Yeah. Um, I'm quite I wouldn't say I'm a comedian, but I'm I I look at the comedy in everything. And the easiest way for me to look through failure is to try and make a joke about it and use laughter to to change my to change my state, if you like, if you want to use that terminology, which a lot of people do. Um, but I will try and find the funny side of it. But it doesn't happen

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immediately. It doesn't happen immediately. And I think I've just leared to understand that when it goes wrong, it's okay as long as I know what I'm going to do next. So if I don't know what I'm going to do next, I'm still feeling terrible. The moment I have a plan, I feel so much better. Even though I haven't executed yet, and that might not work either, but I've got something I know I can do. And I think you go back to your question earlier, you know, what are the traits of entrepreneurs?

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Entrepreneurs work out what to do really quickly. They go, "Okay, this is the problem. This is what we're going to do. This is what they're decision makers like that, right? They make decisions very sometimes on gut, sometimes on experience, sometimes on learning from others. There's a whole bunch of things that create that." But when something happens, they don't sit there and brood on it. They work out what to do next and that excites them and then they lose that awful failure feeling.

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>> I I would agree with this. We we even had a conversation with our team here at Rival where we realized in the data that the clients that we had that were startups that were north of 10 mil and that were billionaires made decisions at a different pace. So whenever we work with billionaires, they make decisions on the spot. >> Yeah. >> And we tell them, you've got three days to think about this. They're like, nah, I'll make the decision now. It's this logo. >> Yeah. Why would you take three days? But

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here's here's the thing is like I noticed that the the wealthiest of our clients make immediate decisions and you give them the option of delay and they don't want it. Then the people in the middle they want a couple days and then the people starting typically the startup entrepreneurs they want two or three weeks for the same decision. And I want to understand from your perspective because you spent time with people all across the world at all different levels of wealth. Why is speed to execution one

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of the key traits to entrepreneurship? You know what I want to know? I want to know why I make decisions instantly and I'm not a billionaire and I've always seen [laughter] it as a weakness and I didn't know that data. So now I'm going to have to question myself. That's personal data. >> That's for me later, right? I'm going to deal with that later. So sorry. Why does speed I think um >> why does speed to decision or speed to action >> Yeah. >> so important to entrepreneurs because

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you haven't got time. You don't have resources and time to make those decisions. You don't have data usually. You usually something you're doing something new that no one's done before. So what are you what are you going to learn from? I think that the thing that drives most entrepreneurs like you said is a problem or something that they're trying to do or something that they really want to do or something that they feel needs to be done and it needs to get done now. And that without the

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ability to get it done now, you're going to run out of money or time or something and create a more difficult time for yourself. And I think entrepreneurs mostly are natural leaders. That doesn't mean they're good leaders. They can be really bad natural leaders, but they're very comfortable leading. And I think if you are a leader, if you make decisions quickly, it gives a lot of people in the team a lot of confidence in you. Whether or not you're right or whether you feel confident in that decision, it portrays

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confidence. And I think you have to portray confidence as an entrepreneur. >> But you think that that's a fast and immediate remedy to failure is if you just move on quick. >> No, it's not a remedy. It's it's again this comes down to personalities. So I think some people will move quicker than others on that. Now like I said you don't need to be a billionaire to be a successful entrepreneur right you don't need to be wealthy to be a successful entrepreneur. Depends how you deci

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define success. So a successful entrepreneur is reaching whatever they feel is their version of success which could be working one day a week or it could be having a billion dollars in very very different outcomes but that's their version of success. Right? So success is only what that person wants. So what did I hear someone say? I heard someone say this the other day. Success is your expectations minus what you're missing to get there or something like that. Some term like that. And I think

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that that's really really important that it's not always monetary. So you're talking about people who are the wealthiest making quick decisions. That's fantastic. That obviously leads to that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that someone makes slower decisions and who isn't wealthy isn't successful. So that's another, you know, that's talking about success, which is the flip of failure to some degree. Although is it? I don't know. >> Clients want it all. A slick looking

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website that can run their business and scale with their success. Wix Studio is built for that. Plan out your client's whole site in seconds with AI powered site [music] mapping and wireframing. Then when everyone's on the same page, jump into the creative. Starting off in Figma or in the Wix Studio editor with super precise layouting tools like grid, stack, and flexbox. [music] Go above and beyond the brief with no code animations, [music] custom CSS, and built-in business solutions. And make

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your whole vision responsive in a click. And there's zero need to break a sweat when clients grow fast. A dynamic CMS with global design settings and reusable assets [music] lets you turn one page into hundreds. Design smoother and deliver sooner. Go to wickstudio.com. Something I want to talk to you about is the modern entrepreneur. And what I mean by modern entrepreneur is like they're showing up on social media kind of like role-playing entrepreneurship, if you will. Um, >> do you mean faking it before they make

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it kind of thing? >> Totally. Like they're wearing the suit, they're wearing the outfit, they're renting the cars. There there's a there's a a performance being played out. And I'm not saying everyone does this. I I think that there's a there's a modern interpretation. Do you think that modern entrepreneurship has made success more about perception than performance? I think again and this is this is not a copout answer and I will give you a deeper answer but it depends on your

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definition of success. Right. >> So so let's let's I guess for the the sake of the episode let's define maybe a a point on the map of success that we can kind of speak to >> financially free and have all the choices they want. That's a pretty good >> let's say they have $50 million business. Uh they have autonomy and they have freedom. Let's just say that's kind of the point on the map people want to get to. So I think and what was the question? Do you I think it makes it

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more >> do do you think that modern entrepreneurship has made success more about this perception or this public persona than about true performance? >> I think it has but I think it's going back the other way. >> So I think people are seeing through that >> pendulum through that era now we're going back. >> I think we are um and you you see that with um you know if you look at the kids they don't want to use social media the same way. They don't want to post stuff

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about themselves. They're much more private. They're almost anti-posting compared to perhaps my generation who was new for want to post everything because we never were able to and then somewhere in the middle but >> everything from our breakfast to photos in the mirror >> photos of the food. Um I think that at the same time that modern entrepreneur that you're talking about has always existed. I think that if you go back before social media, before even you know technology was so dominant, um

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people would dress in a certain way because it made them feel successful which gave them belief in themselves which helped them achieve things. So we talked about this earlier. I think if you're going to succeed you need to believe and that's quite hard and belief goes up and down in people. Um, and for some people putting a suit on that's probably too expensive for them makes them feel like they are at a certain level and and makes them perform at that level. Very much like I I think the

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easiest thing you can liken it to is take any national sporting team when they put the jersey on it's a whole different persona they come into. And I think for entrepreneurs it can be the same thing. It could be a watch, it could be a suit, it could be a car, it could be anything, could be living in a certain area. by them putting themselves in that environment, they're giving themselves that belief. So I think it's already always existed. The difference is now it's public because it's out on

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social media for others to see. So I think it's half half. I think you've got a whole bunch of people that are doing that because that's what they need to do to make themselves believe they can succeed. And I think for others they're trying to fake it until you make it because that's become such a coin phrase. Um, unfortunately sometimes they take it too far and the cost of faking it is actually their downfall. >> Yeah. I I I we interview a lot of entrepreneurs on the show and also I

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work with a tremendous amount of entrepreneurs with our business and I've met so many founders recently that boast their success publicly uh and suffer failure privately >> and it's almost like they're trying to keep up a >> persona or an image and and and there's such fear of being perceived to going backwards. Why is this so innate and and why do people really struggle to even highlight their failures or even publicly disclose? >> This is why I wanted to come and talk

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about failure. You know, when you guys said to me what subject you want, I wanted to talk about failure because no one talks about failure and because I listen to lots of podcasts and obviously involved in podcasts, I know not many people talk about failure. Um I've tried in my podcast to get entrepreneurs to be a bit more honest about it and they still will skirt or or sugarcoat. um not everybody but but as a general rule you're right they do they like to suffer in private why do I think that is

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because I think the world has become that way I think society has become for good or bad it's become a very public persona business and that can also be monetized now whereas it never used to be you know if you think about looking good or driving a Porsche go back to the 80s right or the 90s you can do all that stuff and you could have the image and all that and suffer in private that didn't really get you any benefit other than perhaps the belief that we spoke about earlier. Now you can do that on

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Instagram and you can potentially get monetized for it because your followers go through the roof because everyone looks for these aspirational people that they want to be like. So you there's a whole business about looking good rather than when it just used to be looking good. So I think that's that's why that's just the way we've gone. So, so if you think about the the Porsche, the private jet, the power suits, like these kind of signals that people are sending out on social media, what do you what do

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you think they're really trying to say? And and why do you think they're playing this playbook? Is it is it purely the vanity metric of people will take me more seriously. I'll be able to close more business. I'll be more successful. Therefore, I can justify playing the role because I'll soon be able to back it up. >> So many answers to this question because, you know, there's the guys with the toilet seat that look like the window, right? I still find that the funniest one. look like the plane window

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when they're flying. It's a toilet seat. That's just that's so crazy. Right. The first time I ever actually saw that, I was like, "Wow, >> of all things, it's a toilet seat." But um >> I've never seen that. That's crazy. >> Not so when you if you see the picture of people sitting next to a plane and looking out, it's a toilet seat half the time because it's the same shape as a window in a plane >> and they just photoshop the window

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>> and they just take the they just they just make sure it's scanned in so that you can only see the hole and [laughter] it like they put an image. It's unbelievable. and like of all things to make it look like you're flying glamorously around the world, it's a bloody toilet seat next to you. Um, it's just like the epitome of just ridiculousness. Um, so I think there's narcissists out there. That's, you know, that's they're there. That's one answer.

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I think there are others like we spoke about who are doing it to help themselves believe. But I also think there's some merit to it. And the reason I say that is if let I'll take you back to um years and years ago and you're younger than me, so you might not even remember the story. I hope you don't know this story because it'll be so much better if you don't. But Sachi and Sachi obviously one of the most successful um stories of agencies ever ever in the world globally. When they had some of

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their first big clients come through, they would hire people to sit in an office that was normally empty to make themselves look bigger so that they could walk their clients through. So let's say there was like eight of them, right? And they had a I don't know the equivalent and I forget the name of the clients because I read this book so long ago, but let's say it's Westpak, right? which is a huge client and could be massive for them and so much money and this is game changer, right? So they

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want to come and see them because no one had teams. We didn't even have Skype back then and so they were coming to their office and they so they rented a huge office right in the city at a good address for a day [laughter] and they hired these people and they got them to sit there and they pretend they were working and they walked them through this had a meeting at the board and then left and they won that account and that was the gamechanging moment for Sachi and Sachi, right? or one of them.

00:27:45 - 00:28:27

>> So they they hired an office. >> They faked the whole thing. >> They hired an office for one day or a week or whatever it was. I can't remember. >> They paid actors. >> I don't think they were actors, >> just people, right? They were friends. They were whoever. And they gave the impression because they wanted to show Westpack, whoever it was, that they had the capability. You know, eight people, there was actually no way they were going to be able to manage that account.

00:28:06 - 00:28:50

But if they won that account, then they'd have the money to go and pay the people. Chicken and egg scenario, right? So what do you do? So the opportunity is there. Do you grab it? do not grab it. That's how they grabbed it. And that's one of the ways that they became successful, faking it before you're making it. That's where part of these the these stories from that era were people doing the same thing, but it was private because there was no social media. Now, you couldn't do that now

00:28:28 - 00:29:18

because someone would say something online and it would be discovered and you know, again, it was a different era, but it's the same principle. Um, they created an illusion to win an account which game changed their entire business. And there's lots of people that have done things like this. This is not an uncommon story if you go back to when I was in my 20s that there were people doing stuff like that all the time. They were just making stuff up, putting people in environments that they

00:28:53 - 00:29:38

were creating an illusion so that the person who was going to spend the money with them felt comfortable and safe that they would be able to do it. >> Yeah. Like I remember when I first started my agency, I created a separate email and I pretended to be my own EA. >> I've done that too. I've did that [laughter] before. Accounts emails, admin email. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. I've done stuff like that years ago as well. So, people still do it, but I think social media has just blown it

00:29:15 - 00:30:10

to such a massive proportion. Um, and now anyone can do it. Like, you don't need to have a business and have Westpak coming in to see you. You can just be a guy on your own or a girl on your own and just have a social media account and you can create any illusion you want. So if we if we I guess reach into the Mavavelian playbook around power and perception and we think about how you can kind of fabricate success um what are the pros and cons of doing that and and do you think it's always a case of

00:29:43 - 00:30:45

trying to attempt to do that especially when you're bootstrapping a business? So I think I [clears throat] think if you get the result from something and you have the knowhow, the capability and so forth to to actually be able to deliver, I think it's fantastic. I think there's a lot of people who go and put themselves in those scenarios and blindside people into working with them and they never had the ability or the talent or the capability to do anything. They just were just making it up, which

00:30:14 - 00:30:54

is essentially fraud or, you know, it's no different than a a sort of Ponzi scheme or something like that. >> Then you have like Fire Festival. What happened with that? >> So, interestingly enough, we were going to go and film the second one. >> We were in contact with him and he was, you know, because, you know, it nearly happened. >> Yeah. Billy McFallen. >> And then the whole thing fell over again. I was like, "Oh my god." I was like, "There's no way this could

00:30:34 - 00:31:22

possibly go wrong twice." And it did. We were literally booked about to book flights to go to go and be on the ground to film the behind the scenes stuff. He was talking to us. It was definitely happening. And then a week later was gone again. And I was like, that's [ __ ] crazy. Twice. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's Boyc Wolf. You've gone too far now. So, and that's a great example of someone who's used almost his infamy of [ __ ] it up to make people believe that he would never do it again

00:30:58 - 00:31:46

twice. And so, everyone started to get on board again, but then he did. So, I think it's a good thing if you actually have the ability to be able to back up whatever it is you're trying to do. And sometimes you need to take risks and you need to do things that are perhaps another great example. Look at Uber. I mean, how many things did he do that were not right to get the business to where it did? Now, he broke the law. >> I'm not familiar with the story. >> So, the Uber story is [clears throat]

00:31:22 - 00:32:11

>> if you look at how he built that business, he broke so many laws with data privacy, tracking people, all this stuff, right? Which he was never allowed to do. >> I didn't know this. H and if he hadn't have done it, Uber wouldn't have existed. So yes, he got massive fines, he got caught, he did legal things, you know, it's all wrong, but if he hadn't have done it, we wouldn't have Uber and that would be sad. So there's this also this this really difficult sort of line

00:31:46 - 00:32:40

where a lot of people break the law. And I'm not talking about really bad criminal things where people die and, you know, people are robbed, but I'm talking about, you know, the regulatory laws or funny laws that are restrictive. people break them to break through barriers to create new markets. Uber did that more than anyone. And if you look at this, he broke so many different laws. Oh my god, so many. And yet he celebrated. Um, so it's a really tricky scenario. I I think he did it because he

00:32:14 - 00:32:58

knew what he was believe. He had total belief in himself, that's for sure. But he knew what he was trying to do and the only way he was going to be able to do it. And then the laws ended up changing. So the laws were probably outdated. So again, it comes back to there's no yes or no answer to that. I think it's it's all about your capability to be able to deliver at the end of the illusion. And if you haven't got that, then it's just pure fraud. If you have got that, then

00:32:36 - 00:33:37

sometimes it's just the way to get there. >> It sounds crazy though that that the same invested activity can mean two different outcomes and one means you're celebrated and the other one means that you're a failure. >> That's an entrepreneurs's journey. How many entrepreneurs have taken exactly the same risks and failed and not you know and we're talking about failure and not become anyone that anyone's ever heard of and how many others have and taken the same level of risks but maybe

00:33:06 - 00:34:02

at a different time and are celebrated and yet as individuals they did the same thing as we know and I believe this more than anything mainly from experience luck and timing are a huge part to success and any entrepreneur who says that they didn't have luck and timing is just lying Because like if you haven't got luck and timing, you can execute as well as anyone and you can still not get to where you want to. But if you've got it and you execute well because you can't just have luck and timing because you do

00:33:34 - 00:34:26

need to do the execution, then you can be celebrated and be one of the world's best entrepreneurs. And I've got a lot of very wealthy friends and all of them would agree that they are wealthy because of luck and timing. Yes, they executed and yes, they saw the opportunities and yes, they you know all those things that you also need to do. It's not easy, but if it had been 5 years earlier or 5 years later, they might have got nowhere. >> So, so taking all of this arbitrage of activity and outcomes and putting it

00:34:00 - 00:34:56

together for yourself, what are some lessons you've learned personally from failure that you could maybe dulge or even air out your dirty laundry, if you will, because you talked about how people have a proclivity not to do that. Let's let's maybe tackle some of that because I think that there might be a particular uh event that you've been involved in that we could learn from. >> Well, how many do you want? I mean, the the f if you want to call the failures I've had have been many.

00:34:28 - 00:35:33

Um >> what's what's a perhaps a not so fresh but a recent reasonably difficult situation you've been in that eventuated in a better outcome, but you couldn't see it at the moment? >> Eventuating in a better outcome. >> Yeah. Okay. So, if you if I go back couple of businesses, um I go back to my first business. I'd sold it, right? And I wasn't working and I wasn't sure what to do. And I'd had my period of not working, which you have to have when you sell a business in the

00:35:00 - 00:35:53

industry. Um and a friend of mine had started a business and was really struggling because he's not a very good people person. And so, he was just churning stuff, right? So I said and the business was like I don't know probably turning over just under a million. I said I'll buy half because I had some money from selling the other business and I'm not very good idol. So I bought half the business and we scaled it to 50 mil right over seven years which was phenomenal for a variety of reasons that I won't go

00:35:27 - 00:36:20

into so that people don't necessarily identify that individual. His he had some personality changes which caused a lot of problems for us. Um, I'm a very emotional person. I'm like I said to you, I'm not I'm not not strategic because that's that's probably I don't want to say that because I am strategic and I do think about strategy and how to how to achieve things. But I'm I'm also incredibly emotional and if something upsets me emotionally, I react to it.

00:35:54 - 00:37:07

And as I said to you earlier, I'm a decision maker now, not later, which is probably not always great, but sometimes great. And I made a decision to walk out of that business and go away on holiday and call him and say, "I don't want to be in anymore. You got to buy me out." And he'd done some things that I was so offended, upset, hurt. Like it was it was one of the and this was someone who I was incredibly close to. Uh and I I just felt totally wounded and I couldn't see any recovery back from it. And so we

00:36:28 - 00:37:23

ended up um splitting and he did some he was an annoying person. He knew how to annoy people, right? That was one of the things that that's why he couldn't hold on to stuff and he was just annoying. So but he was very good from finance and operations processes and things like that which I'm not. So it was actually quite a good partnership. But this had just gone to a whole another level. So I ended up leaving, ended up selling. I sold for a certain price. He then carried on trying to annoy me and I did

00:36:57 - 00:37:59

some really stupid things to wind him up and then we ended up splitting. I ended up getting a lot less money than I should have. He ended up getting really bad health issues. Um and we've never spoken since. And this is someone that I was literally couldn't have been closer to. So that's an awful time. Really awful time. But that led that experience of that led me and I'd always had business partners in all of my businesses that drove me to start a business on my own which was nudge which

00:37:28 - 00:38:23

we still have and it put me into a completely different space which I never would have been into which has taken me into media which has taken me into hospitality right so none of those things would have happened if that moment hadn't have happened where I made bad decisions unquestionably bad financial decisions based on emotion But ultimately, it's taken me in a far better place. And as a human being, I can't even tell you how much happier I am now than when I was working with him.

00:37:57 - 00:38:42

And I thought I was happy working with him. And I so wasn't. I didn't realize it. Right. Again, wood for the trees when you're in a scenario. Is that what you mean? Is that the kind of thing? >> Exactly. Yeah. I think, you know, that that's a great example of like in the moment you could have argued, well, things were pretty grim. Like >> I could have pushed through, right? Would it have ended up I mean, who knows, right? what you just you just don't know. Financially, it was not

00:38:18 - 00:39:11

great. Um considering how much we'd scaled that business, which you wouldn't have been able to do without me. Um it's just unfortunate. But at the end, you know, it really I I that kept me awake for a year when I made that decision. That's a long time. That has and it still grabs me every so often. I push through it now easily. But yeah, that was that probably was the greatest thing that stuck with me and bothered me and made me upset and angry at myself and all those things that you don't you

00:38:46 - 00:39:46

shouldn't have in life if you don't really not for very long. Um but actually ended up being probably one of the well no not probably without question the best result for me but it would have been nice to have a ton of cash with it but you know [laughter] >> so it reminds me of a powerful quote from Henry Ford and it's that the only real mistake is the one which we learn nothing from. >> Absolutely. >> So what did you learn from all of that? I learned from all of that that

00:39:17 - 00:40:18

you need to continuously actually reflect. I never reflected right at all on what you're doing. Is it what you want to be doing? Is it actually going where you want to be going? Or are you just plotting along? You know, I felt like I was this fantastic entrepreneur. We'd grown this really business. We weren't going anywhere. The business wasn't going. The business has shrunk since then, but we weren't going anywhere. And I felt like I was a gamecher and you know changing the world and being this I was nothing

00:39:48 - 00:40:41

of the sorts. This business was very vanilla. It was doing exactly the same thing it was doing when I came into it. It was just bigger. But we hadn't really achieved anything. And I learned that that's not me. I like to change things. I like to do new things all the time. You know, I'd learned so much about myself from that experience. I learned what I'm good at, what I'm bad at. I learned what makes me happy. But the most important thing is I learned you need to reflect and that that journey of

00:40:14 - 00:41:11

learning on how powerful reflection is has continued to grow. Um and I'm daily I daily reflect now which which I've only probably been doing for maybe two three years and that's even more powerful and I I talk to a lot of people about this. I think it's really really important. That was the number one thing I learned and that daily reflection or monthly reflection or annual reflection or however much you want to do it will tell you more about how to be happy in the future and I do think success as

00:40:43 - 00:41:42

much as it's monetary it's a lot about how you feel about yourself um is is so important. So if you think about how let's say you're like I want to be successful. If you think about your emotional lens on the world like how you feel about yourself, how you carry yourself, how you speak, how you behave, how you act, >> how how does adjusting that give you a higher chance of succeeding? >> Okay, cool. >> I mean, I I don't like myself a lot of the time, but I like myself a lot of the

00:41:13 - 00:42:15

time. >> I can relate. >> So, and I think everybody's like that. [laughter] Um, and I I I think the times I don't like myself are are not periods of growth and not periods of success in the business and not good for anyone around me. So if I'm not reflecting then I'm not realizing what I'm doing wrong and then I can continue doing things wrong and that can disrupt rep that can disrupt your ability to achieve things. It can disrupt your relationships personally whether they be business or

00:41:44 - 00:42:36

personal. these have huge impacts and these have greater impacts on your life which again it's basically you go into a downward spiral rather than an upward spiral. Very easy to do. Um I'm much better at getting myself out of downward spirals than I used to be. And this comes back to when we were talking about failure when you fail and you get your hot flush, right? How quickly before you have your road map? That's the key, right? How quickly can you go from failing, which you're going to do, and

00:42:10 - 00:42:55

feeling crap about yourself, which you're going to do, and you need to do otherwise you don't learn. And this is where that glamorized I was talking about. If you don't feel bad about failure, then that failure was really bad for you. There's no point in it. You need to feel bad because the feeling bad is what drives you to work out what you're going to do to learn and move forwards. But if you just go, you know what, I failed, but it's okay because failure is cool. It doesn't matter. I'm

00:42:32 - 00:43:17

just going to carry on. That's the worst failure in the world. But failure where you actually it really hurts you and it wounds you, you have to learn something from that. So you need that. But then the period of time it takes you to get from that I'm wounded. I feel like I've just been shot through the heart to creating a road map and feeling positive again. The quicker you can do that, the quicker you're going to be or the more successful you're probably going to be, I would say. Have you have you heard

00:42:54 - 00:43:47

about the story about the um the two old men on the porch and the dog? >> I haven't, but I feel I'm [snorts] about to. [laughter] If you've heard this, I I apologize in advance, but >> I don't think I have. There's a there's a parable or a poem that that goes that there's two old men on a porch on rocking chairs and uh there's a dog laying on the porch and the dog's moaning and one of the old men says to the other, "Hey, why is your dog moaning?" And the second old man goes,

00:43:21 - 00:44:22

"Oh, he's laying on a nail." And the first old man goes, "Well, why doesn't he just get up? He's just laying there on this nail moaning." And the second old man goes, "It doesn't hurt enough yet." I I think there's something deeply poetic about suffering and what that leads to. That moment of like, I've had enough. That's it. Like, you know, that moment you had where you're like, I'm out. Yeah. So, so why is pain so crucial to success? Like, why is it that

00:43:52 - 00:44:43

people have that have the deepest, darkest moments tend to have the highest motivation for a big outcome? >> You don't learn without pain. You don't. It's nonchalant. I failed. Doesn't matter. What have you learned? Nothing because you're nonchalant. It hasn't impacted you in any way. It's It's like I don't know. It's like a wave just came in and you're not a surfer. You don't care. Like it doesn't Well, how could you possibly learn? Whereas if you're a

00:44:18 - 00:45:11

surfer, you're looking at how the wave's breaking and you're learning how that breaks and you learn. You're going to get better on it, right? This the same sort of thing. I think you need pain. Pain makes you seek something. It makes you seek comfort. Makes you seek pleasure. Like if you're in a painful position, you either downward spiral or you go and seek a way to not have pain. I think mo any human who's in pain seeks a way out of it. Now there's good and bad ways out of it. You can look at

00:44:44 - 00:45:38

drugs and alcohol. They're a way out of it. Not a great positive way out of it, but they're a way out of it. I think successful people seek a way out of it in terms of for me, I need to know what I'm going to do to change it. That's what I need to know. And I think entrepreneurs are in charge of their own lives. That's the best part about being an entrepreneur in my view. The number one benefit of being an entrepreneur, it sounds so bad, is I feel like I'm in control. Even though I'm really,

00:45:11 - 00:46:01

[laughter] but I feel like I am and I can change. So if I want to change something, I can change it. If it's not working, I can change it. If I'm not happy and it's making me sad, I can change it. I'm in complete control. No one's telling me what to do. Right? Whether I make the right or wrong decisions is a completely separate matter. So that's the number one benefit. But I think anyone who's in any kind of pain will seek a way to get rid of that pain. So the pain is the way

00:45:36 - 00:46:14

that you learn because you go, "Okay, I hate this. What am I going to do to make sure I don't feel this again?" And and those are probably the ones. So I think this is a great question writing to the dog. If it's a little bit of pain, you might go, "I don't like that. I'm just going to change this." >> You complain about it, >> right? You complain about it, you complain about it. Or even you might just change it. You might say, "Right, I'm just going to do it this way, or I'm

00:45:55 - 00:46:46

not going to do Facebook ads anymore." Annoys me. When it wounds you to a point where the pain is unbearable, you go, "I never want to feel this again." And that's where you really learn because it's not, I just want to get rid of the pain now. It's like, I never want to have this pain again for the rest of my life. How can I make it so I never get this pain again the rest of my life? That's a huge piece of action as opposed to, I'm not doing Facebook ads again or

00:46:20 - 00:47:18

I'm going to get up off the nail. Yeah. So the deeper the pain, usually the deeper the reaction, action, reaction. Same thing in everything in life, right? >> So if you think about entrepreneurs that you spend time with, would you agree that they're more sensitive than most? And what I mean by this is let's say, and I've seen this before, where the most entrepreneurial people I hang out with are like something really tiny will really piss them off. And then there's like a high agency of like someone

00:46:49 - 00:47:47

should do something about this. and then boom, they've got an idea, then they're raising capital, then they're injecting into it. Do do you believe that entrepreneurs have a higher sense of sensitivity to things that they don't agree with in the world? >> Whether you call it OCD, ADHD, [sighs] diversion, all the different terminology that exists, right? Um, I think entrepreneurs are sensitive to things that drive them [ __ ] nuts. Yeah. I think most entrepreneurs have a lot of

00:47:17 - 00:48:03

quirks. Most entrepreneurs are either they're obsessive about something and it's not always what they're working in. Not always. Like you get entrepreneurs who see an opportunity who go with it, but the most annoying thing for them is the guy who leaves his pen sideways on the desk when they should be vertical [laughter] or I have a girl who works for me. You put anything on her desk, right? You know where the lines are on your desk. She [ __ ] loses her [ __ ] Like anything. [laughter]

00:47:40 - 00:48:40

Like, you know, I'm very neat. I'm a neat person. Um I don't like mess. It drives me nuts. I don't like things being angled. I don't like I'm I'm very particular about a lot of things, but then I'm completely casual about so many other things and they don't necessarily relate to my work. So, I think most entrepreneurs have an element of that within their brain chemistry. Yes. And then they have a higher threshold of like needing to do something about it. >> They're less tolerant. Is that what you

00:48:11 - 00:49:06

mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. So if we think about the traits of entrepreneurs, like what have been the most prominent traits you've seen that leads to the highest velocity of success financially? They say the most successful people in life say no to everything. I hear that all the time. >> Really? Yeah. And that is because they're so obsessive about the one thing. And I think there's an element of truth to that. I think if you look at people who just want to focus on one thing and everything else is completely

00:48:38 - 00:49:16

irrelevant and they don't care. Like, so it's no to dinner, it's no to wives, it's no to children, it's no to saying hello to someone, it's no to everything. I'm just doing that. Of course, you're going to have more success because you're putting every piece of energy you have into that. Whereas, if you're putting half a day into that and half your day into that, you're never going to achieve the same amount of that as the person who's just doing that. So,

00:48:57 - 00:49:53

that's not necessarily a good thing because I think personally, I don't think that's a particularly enjoyable life. But that's me. I like balance. I like lots of things, but I'm I can be obsessive about lots of things at the same time. Um, so I think tolerance is probably the wrong word, but I think obsession to some degree about something. Take my um, take my latest business pillars. I don't know anything about hospitality, but I I and when I say I don't anything about hospitality,

00:49:25 - 00:50:17

I don't know anything about running hospitality, but I know how to enjoy it because I love enjoying hospitality. So, I am obsessed about the experience my members have because that's my knowledge. >> And I I want to paint a picture here because I I would agree with you. Like when people say this, you're like usually like, "Yeah, yeah." But in your case, I remember showing up to the location. And maybe you just need to add some context here because I think what you've created is fantastic.

00:49:51 - 00:50:47

>> Coming to the pillars. >> Yeah. Coming to the pillars. Like when I first went there and you took me through the building, it felt like I was at Hogwarts. like everything down to like the the fabric on the wall and the the the texture of the room and the experience and the height of the ceiling and how you've kind of meticulously and methodically engineered every visual aspect, every physical aspect of that space. And the way I understand it essentially it's a members club where

00:50:18 - 00:51:12

you can work from. There's hospitality, there's venues, there's spaces for hire, there's a >> saunas, cold plunges, everything you dream of. >> It's it's crazy. like can you explain what exactly it is and what led you to wanting to create that because it's what you've created is like the highest level of of energy I've seen focused on a fit out like that. Well, firstly, it wasn't just me. So, we had designers, I have co-founders, you know, yes, I'm obsessed

00:50:45 - 00:51:36

with it, but it wasn't it wasn't just me. But I am the worst boss in the world that sends passive aggressive texts like photos of light bulb out. Oh, looks like the light bulbs out to whoever's supposed to do that. or [laughter] maybe the plant delivery hasn't arrived. I'll send it to the plant guy. This looks like an empty space. Does it look empty to you? I do things like that all the time. I [laughter] must be the worst person to work for. But um essentially I and this I've learned a lot during

00:51:11 - 00:51:58

this process, but I was always I couldn't understand why there were no private members clubs in Australia. Obviously, I grew up in London. Um I travel a lot. There's private members clubs all over Asia, Singapore, Hong Kong, US. And they were different in each country and people used them differently in each country, but they existed. And yet all the private members clubs here, everyone was over 90. The fitouts hadn't changed since before I was born. And there just wasn't a scene.

00:51:34 - 00:52:19

And no one who was changing the world. We've got this amazing diverse culture. We've got this city that's really compact, right? We've got entrepreneurs in there. We've got bankers in there. We've got successful people. People love going out. People love eating out. It's a very eatout society compared to some countries. People love exercising here more than anywhere. People do all this stuff all the time, which is what private members clubs are. And people are very tribal

00:51:57 - 00:52:42

here. You know, people in the eastern suburbs hang out with people in eastern suburbs. People in Mosman hang out with people in Mosman. People on the western suburbs, you know, they're very parochial. And members clubs are a tribe, right? And I couldn't understand why there weren't any here. It just never made any sense to me. I did find out, I don't know if you know this, this is a fun fact, but clubs up until I think it was 2017 were not allowed to make a profit in Australia. They had to

00:52:20 - 00:53:05

be nonfor-profit. >> Really? >> Yeah. I didn't know this. >> Like the Rotary Club, all that kind of stuff. >> Weren't allowed to make a profit until 2017. So that obviously stifled that club. >> I didn't know that either until quite recently. Um but that was still what, nine years ago, right? So I was just like, why aren't there any? And then I l then I discovered this club called Cub which was a networking club but they just had one space. It was a work space

00:52:42 - 00:53:40

you kind of met there and and it was great and it was networking but it wasn't a private members club. It had it was like YPO or EO or all those other networking clubs. It was there to help you network with business owners which is fantastic and we need that but it wasn't a space. It was a networking club and I just couldn't understand it. And I used to talk about this all the time. And then I was with a friend of mine who is an interesting chap himself in that um Matt Brown, he is an ex exited tech

00:53:10 - 00:53:58

founder twice and now runs his own VC fund. And we are always coming up with stupid ideas. We bought a business during co that we still haven't relaunched yet. Actually, we're having a meeting about that next week. I'm sure we'll get to it. But we're always talking about doing stuff, right? And he works with entrepreneurs. I work with entrepreneurs. You're in that ecosystem. You're always just chatting. And we just said one time, "Fuck it. Why don't we just do it?" And I was like, "All right,

00:53:34 - 00:54:21

yeah, why not?" So, and I've had lots of conversations like that that have amounted to nothing, but we started looking at properties and we looked at 80 properties over 18 months, which was insanity. And it almost became a joke. Again, I still didn't think it was ever going to happen because we'd looked at so many properties and it was so expensive. What were you guys looking for? >> Very different to what we got. I mean, we started out thinking we were going to create an 80 square meter bar. And then

00:53:59 - 00:54:45

it was, oh, no, we need a whole building. And then it was, oh, we need a building with a restaurant. And and eventually we were looking for what we found, which was we needed a space big enough to have multiple different spaces. We wanted it to feel like a home, but we needed to have a public restaurant down on the bottom floor. There's not that many buildings that have the ability to do that. So, it became narrower and narrow, and then this insane building came up. Um, and it was the first time the building had been

00:54:22 - 00:55:04

completely empty, as in the whole building was available in like, I don't know, ridiculous amount of time, 50 something. >> And it's an old building. So, just to describe this for people, it's like a >> It was the first ever bank in Australia. >> And this is this is like a very regal heritage building that's made out of marble and concrete >> pillars. It's got 21 pillars on the front. It's the only building in Australia to have the three different

00:54:43 - 00:55:30

types of pillars, ionic, doric, and corinthian. Right. And I I love buildings like that. Again, coming from England, my house, my parents house was older than that building, interestingly. But Australia doesn't have that many because it's a much younger country, but this building was like, it's an important building in the city. There's no question. >> And this is right in the middle of like the >> the highest traffic in Sydney because this is just to describe this for people that

00:55:06 - 00:55:48

that haven't been to Sydney is like we have like >> the city and the center and the heartbeat of the city is right in that. It is because it's quite small Sydney City really if you think about it but it's right it's right in the middle and that was part of the problem with some of the other 80 buildings was they were in the wrong beautiful buildings in the wrong location >> because I do believe it needs to be convenient and if you're going to go to you know if you want to sell something

00:55:28 - 00:56:13

to people like if you're doing a consumerbased product it needs to be easy for them to use because people are just inherently lazy >> so this building's insane so it just came available so I rang him he was overseas where he was I think he was in US at a conference who's in San Francisco and I said, "I've got the building." He goes, "Don't do anything until I get there." I said, "Oh, I might be a bit late for that." Anyway, we we we put in for this

00:55:50 - 00:56:43

building and we went up against all these hospitality brands. I thought we had no chance and they awarded it to us. I won't go into the reasons why, but essentially the owners of the building are incredible family. They've owned it for a very long time. They love the idea of the whole building being taken by one group and it turning into this incredible members club. and we'd showed them our vision and we'd already created renders and you know and I was I'm quite an excitable person. I have a lot of

00:56:17 - 00:56:57

energy and I was just running around this building with them. I'm going to do this here and I'm going to do this here and I think other hospitality booth just came in and said oh we're going to put a bar there and we're going to put a bar there. But I was like and we're going to create this place which is like a home for everyone. You know I was on full sales mode. So we ended up getting the building which was a shock and a worry because we were like how the [ __ ] are we going to fund this? Um,

00:56:36 - 00:57:32

>> can we can you give us a a n as to what kind of money we're talking about? Look, the whole thing has cost if you look at it from sort of wo to go from what it was the day that we saw it to where it is now, it's somewhere around 101 million, which is not a small amount of money when you two people who don't have any background in hospitality. Um, and I mean it's a lot of money reality is is how long how long is the lease for? >> So the lease is it's basically 12 13

00:57:05 - 00:58:01

years in total. split. There's a little split in there. Um, and I guess we just like, well, we better do it now. Um, and that's a scary it it was one of the scariest moments I think I've had in all the things I've done because starting a company with a computer and a mobile, that's easy. taking on one of the oldest buildings for 12 13 years at a rent I'm not going to tell you about and putting in a fit out that's crazy to a members clubs which don't exist in the country

00:57:33 - 00:58:30

and you got no idea if anyone's going to show up in a econ economic cycle that was not booming seemed like a terrible idea but it didn't seem like a terrible idea it seems like when I look back on it I'm thinking that was a terrible idea but we didn't see that blindsided optimist optimism again just coming here optimism just taking me down the journey right and this is going to be the best thing ever, right? Um, and I re I actually I genuinely believed it wor. I had no doubt in my my heart that it

00:58:01 - 00:58:56

would work. Now, I've had no doubt in my heart things are going to work before and they haven't. So, don't take that as a given, but I I didn't have any doubt. And so, we built it and we wanted it to be for a younger generation. We wanted it to be, you know, as close to 50/50 female male as possible. And we're about 41 42% female, which is wild. everyone. Everybody said I couldn't do that. Every club person I spoke to said you'll never get women to come. It's not going to

00:58:28 - 00:59:27

happen. Just so happy to have proved them wrong. Um we're way ahead on the amount of people that are signing up. The fit out is incredible as as you talked about. It's that blend of modern and and sort of old and trying to bring it together in in a way that feels exciting and energetic. It's really dynamic because you have heritage, but it still feels refreshing, invigorating, and new, even though it's got like nods to the the heritage of the building. >> But Emma Blumfield, the designer, has

00:58:57 - 00:59:44

done an insane job. Now, I've known Emma a while. She's one of the first people I called. Interestingly, I called Matt and he was in San Francisco. Emma was at Coachella, so no one was around and she she didn't want to talk to me, basically. But I said, "I've got this project for you when you come back." And I wanted Emma to do it because I wanted it to not be too masculine like a lot of clubs, but I didn't want it to be girly and its heritage and I wanted to feel like a home. So Emma is a designer,

00:59:21 - 01:00:11

written books, she's, you know, amazingly an entrepreneur. She runs her own business, so she she understands the mindset, but she's also bit of a tomboy. She grew up in the country, so she's not too girly, but at the same time, she designs homes. And I didn't want someone who designed commercial. I wanted it to feel like a home. And she just nailed it. Like she just faking nailed it. And that's why it looks and feels like it does because of hurt designs and admittedly we've we've gone to gone to

00:59:46 - 01:00:41

battle on a few things. Um but [laughter] we've come out with this insane insane result. But I think the most incredible thing for me now, what are we six months in? So it's still very new. One, we're ahead on the sales. Two, I've got this amazing group of founders that I've working with. You know, the six of us in total now that have gone in there. The members that have joined, I've met people that I dreamt of meeting. meetings, sorry, which is which is great. But more importantly, we put

01:00:14 - 01:01:09

lots of events on. We do all sorts of stuff, right? There's so many you there's too much to go into now. But if you talk to them, they are so complimentary about the quality of the members that are in there. And things that really make my heart sing, if you like, are you go into the bar at 4:00 and there's a whole bunch of people sitting in there in little different groups. You might go in two hours later, a lot of those groups will have joined up. You go into the work space, there are people just working here, there and

01:00:41 - 01:01:20

everywhere. You go back later, some of those people have joined up. People are connecting and you know there's no official networking. It's not a networking club. It was designed as a home, a second home if you like or a third place as they call it now. And these people are connecting and they're doing it authentically, which is mean they're getting real meaning out of it and they're seeing each other and they're building relationships and they're starting companies together,

01:01:01 - 01:01:45

investing companies together, they're doing all these things together. They're suddenly going out. They're all going in the sauna together. They're going out for golf together. like we're connecting people in a way that I've never seen just by giving them a place to go. And that is something that you can't control. You know, I can control whether the service is good, whether the lights are good, whether the couches are comfy, whether the sauna, all that sort of stuff. And there's a lot of problems

01:01:23 - 01:02:16

with that, but we're getting there. Um, but I can't control how people feel and and what they do when they're in there. And it's just been magical. Um, and if you're going to ask me why and how, I don't know. I kind of know, but I don't know. It's it's too early. But I think the quality of the people, the feeling that that building has naturally, buildings have feelings. I do believe that buildings make people feel a certain way. That is just such a nice place to be. It you just I don't know

01:01:50 - 01:02:32

how you felt when you walk in, but it feels very comfortable. Um but it's been it's been an incredible journey. >> I did feel like uh Harry Potter Hogwarts for the first time. I was like, >> the staircase the staircase is >> I feel like become a wizard here. Like that's how I felt. If you stand at the top of the staircase and look down, you can almost see the staircases swinging like they do in the in the movie. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I want to understand better like back to

01:02:10 - 01:03:08

I guess our our conversation around failure. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to get into the failure part of this just yet, but I want to understand like what was the pinch that led to this happening? Other than the conversation you had with your friends, what was the the true pinch of like we have to do this? Like it there's there's no going back. I got really frustrated with networking clubs. >> Like take me into the exact moment like what happens? >> I think typically whether it be Cub or whether

01:02:39 - 01:03:31

it be YPO or whether it be EO or whether it be any of the other ones there's so many right they all have a place. But for me as an entrepreneur and I don't know if this exists in every entrepreneur but I think it does. I hate being told what to do. I hate it. Nothing upsets me more. my instant reaction to being told what to do by someone. Hairs go up on back of my neck. I don't want to do it even if I actually do. It's just and I it's something I work on and I'm not really getting

01:03:05 - 01:03:49

better at, but I'm still trying, but I just hate it. Right? So, when you go and join networking clubs, they put you with people and you have to network with them whether you want to or not for a period of time. It could be that you'll be the same 10 people for three months. It could be that you're in a particular chapter for a year or whatever it is. And you have to help everyone equally. I don't want to do that. I only like those two. I don't want to talk to the other ape. They can [ __ ] off. I want to spend

01:03:27 - 01:04:21

my time with those two. That's where I see my value. You can't do that. So, I felt like I wasn't in control. I felt like I was in school. Now, I got a huge amount out of those clubs, particularly cup. Cub was great for me at a certain period of my career. It was amazing and did and I still have so many connections that came from that, but I have so many more that I got nothing from. And so, I wanted to remove the structure because, as we've talked about, I'm not a structure person. And I wanted to take

01:03:53 - 01:04:49

away what I feel like was forced time with people and this was authentic relationships that developed naturally. That's what I wanted to create. So when I left sort of these clubs and stopped doing any of them, I really wanted to create a place that was like going to and networking drinks all the time, but not just drinks because some of the best networks I built are through sport, running, whatever, swimming, you could be fitness clubs, you could be going to the movies, who knows, right? You build

01:04:22 - 01:05:02

relationships in the strangest of places. So I wanted to create a place where there was no, you know, there were bars. Sure. And there were outdoor spaces. Sure. There were place you could read books. You could play back gamon. You could work. You can have a cold plunge. You know, it doesn't matter what you're doing. You never know when you're going to meet someone. I wanted to have a singular place where people could come. And I wanted to have somewhere and I felt like nearly all the places in

01:04:42 - 01:05:26

Sydney particularly, but really across Australia were designed for people to succeed. But there was nowhere to go when you had. >> Oh, >> right. Yeah. When you've succeeded, where do you go? You stay at home or you hang out at your mate's house. There was nowhere to go where you'd succeeded and you want to do something else and you want to meet other people who understand what it's like to have succeeded and hang out with them. Who aren't going to bug you and go, "How do you do this? How

01:05:04 - 01:05:50

do you do this? How do you do this? I want to learn. I want to learn." And there's nothing wrong with that. You can put that into your life whenever you want to and you should. But somewhere where it was safe, when you could just go and it was private and it was discreet and there was a whole bunch of other people like there likeminded there from all different warps of life and see what happened. That's what I wanted. >> That was your nail. >> Yeah, it [laughter] it it really was.

01:05:26 - 01:06:13

And it really pissed me off every time I went overseas, particularly to places like London or Singapore or where the club scene's quite big or even Hong Kong where the club scene's massive. And I go in these clubs and it's such a nice feeling and people know each other and the barman know each other and it's like an episode of Cheers, right? But everyone knows each other. It's a nice thing, right? We are tribal. We want to feel belong somewhere >> and success almost alienates you from

01:05:50 - 01:06:43

people. >> Why does success alienate people? >> Because like we said, there's nowhere to go where all the successful people go. You have to be either friends with them and know them and go out to dinner or go to the house. But if you go to any sort of working space or literally anywhere and let's say you're a successful person, but even more so if you've got a profile, all people want to do is suck that out of you. And that's great. Nothing wrong with that. >> You don't want to do that all the time,

01:06:17 - 01:07:12

right? You don't you want to get something from someone else, you know? You want the energy transfer to be equal, not always going out the one way. And there was nowhere to go. No, I I would uh I would I would share an experience I had recently where um you know this time last year we had around 5,000 subscribers and we recently surpassed 500,000. >> Wow. >> So So the first year 0 to 5,000 it took a year, >> mate. Well done. That's insane. >> It's nuts. It's I'm still like

01:06:45 - 01:07:34

>> So 500,000 people are going to listen to me talk about failure. >> Yeah, >> that's [laughter] so in the in the second year five to 500,000. And it almost felt like that was an easier journey than zero to five. >> How annoying is that to everyone under five? >> Super annoying, right? [laughter] But I'm not saying this to impress you. I just want to impress upon you. >> No, no, I'm not. >> Recent experience I had was we got inundated with emails, text messages,

01:07:09 - 01:07:57

DMs where we need to catch up. You need to tell me what you're doing, which is which is beautiful. I love that. However, at the same time, there is a feeling of like why should I? You know, I figured it out. I bled, you know, to find a way to do this. It's it's it's almost like there's a human component of like, no, I want to gatekeep this. I'm not just going to give it away. >> Well, there's both, right? You go through mixed emotions on that or you want to give it to people.

01:07:34 - 01:08:12

>> Dude, I have mixed emotions where I'm like, I just want to give it all away. Here's all the tactics. Here's all the tips. Do it for yourself. But then there's a part of the human experience which is like mine. Like I made this, >> but also what about you going from 500 to 10 mil? Don't you want to know how to do that? >> Yeah. >> So there you go. >> It's a different journey. >> Different journey. But the question I have for you around this is let's say

01:07:53 - 01:08:46

let's say you find magic. You you become a wizard and you're like, "Okay, I found my thing. >> You you seem to be someone who's like very happy to just give it all away and like here you go. It's all for you." By creating an environment that is for people who've achieved success, it changes the energy. I've been in these rooms. It >> does. >> No one's asking each other >> from a perspective of give me, give me, give me. No, >> it's it's it's a it's a lot more

01:08:19 - 01:09:17

collaborative discussion. >> How would you describe the difference between being in a room of people who are already successful and being in a room where people are trying to figure out how to be successful? What is that? From whose perspective? From from the perspective of the successful person. Let's take it from both perspectives. >> So, I think being in a room of peers, if you like, >> who hasn't made it, >> who've made it, whatever, however you define that, right? Um, there's a couple

01:08:47 - 01:09:38

of things I think. One, it's an ego hit in a good way for you because you feel like you belong there and that's a nice feeling, right? So, interestingly enough, there's a member who I persuaded to join who didn't think he belonged there and he does and I had to persuade him that he belonged there to join. Now he's in there. I'm saying now do you feel and he still doesn't feel it but we're getting there with him, right? And he does and that's just his personality, right? So I think

01:09:13 - 01:09:58

that's that that will help him go to the next level once he once he gets there and he will get there because he's accepted by all these people who he would never have spoken to and they will speak to him because he's at the club and they would have spoken to him anyway but he would never have put himself in a position to so I think it can actually help your own self-belief right um it's a bit like I don't know if you've had this moment but I've had moments in my career where I've achieved things and

01:09:36 - 01:10:32

maybe I bought a house or something like that and you you know those things wear off pretty quick right that's the reality but you wander around there for a while and it makes you feel you go, you know what, like I did this. That's a really nice feeling. I think the club gives you that all the time. I think that's that's a really nice thing. But I think it's a very relaxed exchange of energy. It's very equal. I don't think there's really anyone in there. And we obviously screen for this because not

01:10:04 - 01:10:48

you can't just join. You have to pass our criteria. And and that's not there's no written criteria. It's it's just it's a thing, right? Um, you know, we don't want to take we've said no to a lot of wealthy people, successful people, because they're [ __ ] So, we don't want that. And that whole, you know, getting the right person in there. They're not necessarily looking to gain anything from someone. They're not necessarily looking to give anything

01:10:26 - 01:11:28

looking. They're just looking for interesting conversations, interesting people to hang out with. That's what they're looking for. >> Uh, now I want to talk to you a little bit about burnout because you've touched on this before. the relationship between failure, quitting, burnout, entrepreneurship, high agency, creating things. You've said that burnout isn't caused by hard work, it's caused by misalignment. What do you mean? So, good good um good angle to go down after that because

01:11:00 - 01:12:06

I'm running obviously lots of businesses. So, I've had burnout a few times. Um yeah, burnout I think is caused from in my view when you're doing something that you're not wanting to do to get to an end result. >> Give you example [snorts] cuz that's a really vague answer. Early days of a business, right? You're doing a whole bunch of [ __ ] you don't want to do because you have to. Because you haven't got money. There's no one else to do it. You're the Stanley knife. You're doing

01:11:33 - 01:12:20

it all. Right? And that's you you can hit burnout. Now the whole purpose of early stage businesses and getting through that is you have to go through that period and it's sustainable for a period of time but it's not sustainable forever. So then you hire other people to take those things off. That doesn't necessarily mean you start working less hours but it means you start doing the things you're good at. And that's when I don't necessarily think burnout always hits you because I think when you're

01:11:56 - 01:12:41

doing stuff you really love doing it doesn't feel it doesn't weigh on you as much. Right. When you're swallowing the frog, kiss the frog, whatever that saying is that everyone talks about. I should stop dropping those antinotes if I don't know what they are. Um, when you're doing that and you're doing things that you don't like and you're having to work hard, it way it hurts your brain. It weighs on you. It's not it's not fun, right? It's it's really

01:12:18 - 01:13:16

laborious and it I think it drains your energy. When you're working maybe till 1:00 a.m. doing something you love, your energy is pumped, right? So, I don't think you necessarily get the burnout. Now, when I I grew up in an era where it was a badge of honor to work crazy long hours and never go to the gym and not eat and drink shitloads of alcohol, right? So, fantastic environment to grow up in. [laughter] Um, lot of fun when you're young, but not so fun when you get older. And it took me a lot to get out of that. Um,

01:12:47 - 01:13:40

and I don't work quite the crazy hours I used to work. I work every day cuz I really want to, cuz there's something in my head I want to do that day. It bugs me. So I sometimes know that I need to not work. So I have this I have a few rules and guards I put in place now to stop me doing that. I'm very religious with my exercise which I didn't used to be. I love exercise. I went away from that in my early years of entrepreneurship. Really just didn't do any. Luckily I have a high metabolic

01:13:14 - 01:14:04

rate so I never put any weight so no one knew. But I was not healthy. Now I find that I'm much more productive. I'll do a form of exercise every single day. Right. literally every day when my son's not when he's here cuz at the moment he's away. We'll train every day nearly together except for Sundays. Um but I think that's really important to take the time to do that. So I I find that I like to get up really early. I like to work and then I go and do my exercise and then I get into my day with other

01:13:39 - 01:14:26

people so I can do stuff at home that when I need to think and then I'll come home at a relatively okay time. I'll have some break, have some dinner, and then I'll work again after that until whenever I have some rules around that now as well. I don't feel like I'm burning out now. I'm working goodness out. I'll work every Saturday. I'll work every Sunday. Not all day, but I'll definitely do work on those days. I love working Sundays. I love working Sundays because I feel so much better on Monday

01:14:02 - 01:15:00

because I feel set up, right? Gives me a such a sense of happiness. I'm much more stressed on a Monday if I've had [snorts] all of Sunday off. Madness, right? But that's just how I am. Saturdays I don't like to do a lot, but I like to just chip away at something. So, I don't feel like I'm anywhere close to burnout, but I have done before. And it's when I'm doing things that I don't want to do, but I need to do. That's what I mean. That was a long answer. >> You've shared that you hit burnout so

01:14:31 - 01:15:21

hard that you slept for 30 out of 48 hours once. [laughter] >> I don't know why you're laughing. [gasps] >> Cuz you you know what? Everything that is terrifying and awful is always funny later. It really is. Don't you think? Yeah. Like all the really horrific [ __ ] Yeah. >> is so [ __ ] funny later. It just is. I I don't know why. [laughter] >> It always It's always like uh >> cuz it's so ridiculous. >> Yeah. It's so ridiculous looking back on

01:14:56 - 01:15:48

it like I can't believe that happened. >> Like what the [ __ ] is that even possible? [laughter] It's not good. It's there's nothing good about that. Like there's anyone who's watching this, kids don't listen to that. Like if you have to sleep for that long, the damage you've probably done is just terrifying. [laughter] This is why I've got no hair. I had a full head of hair before I went to sleep. No. Woke up woke up 30 hours later. It's all gone. [laughter] I'm just thinking of that

01:15:22 - 01:16:26

movie Jarhead where he's shaving his head. >> I love that movie. >> It's a great movie. Um, so take us back to that week. What were the warning signs that you ignored before everything crashed? >> All of them. [laughter] So [ __ ] many. Um [clears throat] I was [laughter] what were the warning signs? Um is I don't know if I can think about what warning it was the way I was doing it. I was >> So what what happened? Where were you? >> I was um in Sydney. What do you mean?

01:15:55 - 01:16:56

Where was I? Like >> so like what was the event that occurred? What led to it? >> Oh nothing. I was just just driving just dri I was going through a particularly driven point in my career. And you know I said I hate being told what to do. Yeah. >> I also hate [ __ ] idiots, right? I just hate it when people are stupid. Now that sounds a really awful thing to say, but some people just do the stupidest things. Like anyone could look at that scenario and go, why would you do that?

01:16:25 - 01:17:12

Right? It drives me nuts. Now, when someone continuously does that, I lose my [ __ ] and I take whatever it is they're doing off them and I'm just doing it myself, which is exactly what I tell everyone not to do. The whole founder coming in is the hero. Worst idea ever. I've done it so many times. And so, I have scenarios in business where there's a really good opportunity and people are just being complete [ __ ] And I don't even fire them. I haven't got time for that. I'm just

01:16:49 - 01:17:39

taking whatever it is they're doing and I'm doing it and you just get out of my way. Go and sit in the corner. I'll keep paying you. I don't care. I'm I'm doing this now because [laughter] it's important. This is what I used to do. So when you're doing that, then you're just working right now. You get tired. This is a warning sign. If you're solution to being tired is two bottles of pon noir because the sugar and the alcohol wake you up. That's a warning

01:17:13 - 01:18:00

sign [laughter] right now. If you think about what I was doing at the time, I was doing recruitment. So a lot of that would be head hunting. So which I can do at night because I don't need to speak to anyone. So I would in the day I'd be on the phone, I'd talk to everyone and I'd do sort of head hunting. So sitting on LinkedIn doing really deep searches, finding people, putting them into projects, sending them messages, that kind of stuff, right? You can do that anytime. So I would always do that out

01:17:36 - 01:18:47

of hours. Now there's a there's a bit of an art to that. Pon Noir does not enhance that art. [laughter] So particularly not two, sometimes three. I'd sometimes drink three bottles of wine to continue working until 4 or 5:00 a.m. It's not a good idea. And the messages you're sending and the people that you're deciding to send them to are usually not the right people. And the messaging is not right either. So then you spend the next day unwinding the [ __ ] that you did, which puts you behind

01:18:13 - 01:19:02

even more. What do you do? You get some more wine out the cupboard and you go for it again. And I was doing this right time after time and I was hung over. I was grumpy. Um, just awful coffee, just just horrific. Like just the worst possible environment. No exercise, sitting all day, which I hate. Music blaring, wine everywhere, find wine on the keyboard in the morning. You've messaged someone who's got no relevance to the job at all, telling them about this. And they're messaging back going,

01:18:38 - 01:19:30

"What the [ __ ] are you talking about? Why are you messaging me?" This is just a mess, right? And my solution to this mess was to work longer and drink more to enable me to do that. And it's obviously a spiral. So [laughter] this is why I have to use humor because it's so [ __ ] bad. Like it's the it's bad from a health point of view. It's bad from a running a business point of view, you know, in terms of being the hero taking the work off. It's, you know, there was no education. Forget

01:19:03 - 01:19:57

teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. It was kick kick the man in the in the river and take his fishing rod. It was just me just trying to take over, right? And it's a control freak element that I have. This reminds me of a brutal quote and it's that if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. Neither it's very true and it's a it's but you feel like you're nailing it. >> Yeah. >> Because you get hammered and you feel fantastic like I'm so [ __ ] good. I am

01:19:30 - 01:20:29

the best entrepreneur. Look at me go. It's 4 in the morning. How good is this? It's not good at all. Um you know and everyone around you is like you okay? You don't look well. You know and all this sort of [ __ ] It's I've I've been down that route a couple of times. not now for many years but um I have gone down that route a few times. So I think those are the worst times and you you push yourself to the absolute limit. Your critical thinking is non-existent. Your decision- making is poor. Um you're

01:20:00 - 01:20:52

rude to people, you're missing opportunities, it's there's just nothing good that comes out of it, right? And then eventually you just collapse, right? And you go, you know, I really need to have this weekend off. and you just your body's just completely shot to pieces and even after 30 hours you still feel horrific because one you know you're you're obviously coming off way too much alcohol you haven't exercised your brain's f this just it takes a lot longer than one sleep to recover from

01:20:25 - 01:21:21

that and then you got to break the habit habits that you've created because it becomes habitual um yeah that's burnout it's great fun um everyone hates you thinks you're a dick you think you're you're invincible um you you're not winning, you're losing. It's expensive cuz I like nice pino noir. Um it's just all bad. Um I don't know what else to tell you. It's it's [laughter] when I do things I tend to go all in. Yeah. >> Um and you know, if you're going to go

01:20:53 - 01:21:54

into burnout, I went all into burnout. I didn't just, you know, skim around the edges. I really pushed myself to a horrible place. >> You went into the >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I can't remember it saw me back because I was wasted. I can't remember anything. Now, you said that your default coping mechanism uh when you're stressed is to work more. [laughter] How do you fight that instinct now? Is there a healthier circuit breaker? [laughter] >> Uh I still tend to work more when I'm

01:21:22 - 01:22:18

super stressed. Um but I'm very controlled about what I'm going to do. So I will say I'm going to do this and when I do this I'm going to stop. So, I've got I've there are so many guard rails around that I create around myself. It's almost like I've created this really complex maze to stop me going off because I'm like, as you've learned already, I'm very emotional. Um, I tend to I'm I'm someone who likes to take action as opposed to think or do or

01:21:51 - 01:22:49

think about things or talk about things. So, I need to create guard rails or I just fall off basically. That's probably the best way I could describe that. Um, so what do I do now? Yeah, I I I have controls. I have times. I'm stricken with myself. I don't drink when I'm working at all. Um just simple things that normal people do in their life anyway. So, I've become a normal person. That's what I've done. I've become normalish nor more normal than I was. >> Now, something I want to touch on, which

01:22:20 - 01:23:24

is uh I guess your perspective on different types of founders, if you will. >> Sure. >> Um there are founders who start a business with the means of selling to make money. Yep. >> And exit. Uh and then there are founders who become purely obsessed with creating significant change. In your case, uh your nail was I I want to not be told what to do and I want to do something about it. Um which founder in your experience or founders in your experience tend to come out on top. In my view, sadly, it's the ones who

01:22:52 - 01:23:38

drive towards the exit. >> Really? >> Yeah, it is. And no one likes to talk about it, right? because everyone will say if you're starting a business for money, you won't succeed. It's just [ __ ] I just don't believe that at all. Um I know so many founders who have built businesses purely to have an exit and have the lifestyle they want and they've achieved it. And I saw so many people doing a noble cause or something they did and they're bumbling along and the business might be worth a fortune,

01:23:15 - 01:24:03

but they haven't sold or they missed the boat or I I mean that's not everyone. This is a generalization. So I think the opposite of what everybody says. I think it's the right thing to say. go start a [laughter] business for money. It's the right thing to say if we're if we're going down the work world. >> Why is that the case? Do how how do they have an advantage in that case if they're purely focused on like we've got to build to an exit, we got to get >> because they have an they have a very

01:23:38 - 01:24:30

very clear outcome. Very very clear. There is an end to it. Where if you're trying to solve a problem or you're doing something noble, there's actually usually no end to that. Right? >> So there's no uh definitive moment you're creating. Whereas when you do an exit, it's very specific. These things need to calibrate at this particular junction for this outcome. >> Think of this analogy. I want to run a marathon, right? I know exactly what I need to do and I know exactly how I'm

01:24:05 - 01:24:49

going to get there. And when I get there, it's done. I want to run because I want to get fit. Where's the end? Where's fit? What's the definition of fitness? What's the definition of success? What's the What's the endgame? That could change. I want to get fitter. I want to get fitter than him. I want to get fitter than that person. There's always someone fitter than you. There's no end to it, right? So that doesn't mean they don't have successful exits. But in my in my view,

01:24:26 - 01:25:16

if you're asking me who has the most success and we're defining success here by having financial freedom and so forth, which we talked about earlier, it's the people who build it for money. Now, I'll coin this a little bit and because you can take that group and break them up again. You've got to be doing something that I think you have knowledge, talent, experience, see an opportunity or something in. You can't just start any old [ __ ] and go, I'm going to do that for money. there needs

01:24:52 - 01:26:00

to be something a little bit more substance behind it. I just think that most people are actually doing that. They just don't like admitting it. >> Okay. Now, if you think about the means of building towards an exit, what are the other things that you think that that individual really needs as a part of their makeup or their traits that would okay, I have a desire for money. I have a desire for an outcome. What else do I need in my makeup? They need to be able to understand what part of them is not going to get

01:25:26 - 01:26:12

them to that outcome and give that to someone else and be really honest about that. So you talk to most founders, they think they're great at everything, but they do know the things that they're not great at and that's great and they hire people. But do they really hire people to do them? They really give them autonomy or do they just get someone to do it and they still tell them what to do? You know, I think it's the ability to let go. Founders are always their worst enemies. Founders are not

01:25:49 - 01:26:41

generally fantastic operators and business builders and they're not traditionally great at going through exits either because they always think it's worth more than it is and all those other kinds of things and they tend to be emotional people. So, uh, and again, we're generalizing here. So, I think the ability to be able to put your ego aside at some point, you need the ego there to get you to a point and then you need the ego aside to get to the end, I think. And the ability to do that is incredibly

01:26:14 - 01:27:00

difficult. And great example maybe a founder going from series A to series B, right? That is probably one of the most difficult parts of a journey because series A you've got a whole bunch of people. You're all working together. You all kind of have roles and you have responsibilities, but you all kind of help each other out and do things and everyone's great at kind of doing everything and it's fun. And then series B, you need process, you need compliance, you need specialist people,

01:26:38 - 01:27:13

you need to stop people treading on each other's toes. Half the people that work with you in series A aren't going to be able to work in series B. You need to be able to get rid of them. You need to move yourself out the way. It's a really difficult time. So >> why is it so difficult to make that transition for so many founders >> because it's a different personality type. There are ones that can go the whole journey, right? We see them, but they're few and far between,

01:26:56 - 01:27:35

>> right? >> It's a completely different personality type. Um I think even the employees, I think what we don't do very well here in Australia is we don't cultivate early stage specialists. people who should just work in early stage businesses and then they should leave and go and work in another early stage business because that's where they shine. They don't shine in the big companies. And if you're going to have an exit, it's going to be life-changing. At some point,

01:27:15 - 01:28:13

you're going to go from startup to scale up to kind of mini corporate. Um, and they're completely different environments, completely different. >> Let's say someone wants to make the leap or the transition and they're listening to this and they're like, I'm a great founder. I got things up and off the ground. It's now running. I would like to go the whole mile. what what should they be introducing to their skill set as an entrepreneur? >> This is where having investors or a

01:27:43 - 01:28:34

board of some type is probably the most helpful thing because you need people to highlight what you can't see because founders are not great at being critical to of themselves. They think they are. It's part of the problem. They're actually not, but they think they are, which is part of literally part of the problem. they're stuck in that loop where they think they know what they're bad at, but they really don't. I think um ultimately if you're gonna have a kind of exit that's going to be significant,

01:28:10 - 01:28:56

we all heard this a hundred times, the business needs to be able to operate without you. So for the business that needs to be operate without you, you need systems, process, compliance, you need people taking responsibility, you need, you know, those are things most founders hate, which is what gets them the ability to get to that place because they're able to build in this incredible environment of crazy ambiguity where anything goes. It's very hard to be able to be successful in that and be

01:28:32 - 01:29:28

successful in that. Um, I think the ones that can are probably just I don't even know if you can learn it. I think it maybe are just the ability to do that. They may they may be not great here, but understand they're not great in early stage, so they bring people in to help them through early stage. And they're not great here, but they still bring people in. So they're kind of this sounds really bad, but [laughter] you could say they're a little bit pedestrian. They're kind of average at

01:29:00 - 01:29:45

everything, but they know how to get people to help them through all three parts of the journey. >> Yeah. >> Whereas if you're really good here, you can't be really good here because you just can't. It's a different person altogether. >> Yeah. I I liken it to like the journey because I I went through this stage myself recently and it felt like I needed to really amplify the substance of the business. Like I really had to push and turn everything up to 11. Like it was

01:29:23 - 01:30:08

like I can't just do average branding. It has to be exceptional. I can't do average logos. It has to be exceptional. I to do that we needed processes. We need rigor. We needed to upskill the >> accountability, KPIs, measures data, >> data, tracking, numbers. Like like I I I sucked at these things. But I was like, I'm going to become obsessed with this stuff. >> You can do that, right? You can do that. But then but then when you're doing that, that takes a lot of time. And then

01:29:45 - 01:30:32

the other part suffers. It it's it's a it's a tough one, right? But you you need people around you. You always need people around you. The remedy I found that helped me through that was like just simplify this [ __ ] Like don't get too crazy. Don't get too like simplify the problem for what it really is. Um >> I know that's my mantra, right? Simplify. >> Yeah. And there's a quote I got here and I wanted to read this out to you and and see what you thought about this and it's

01:30:08 - 01:30:58

when you're forced to be simple, you're forced to face the real problem. When you can't deliver ornaments, you have to deliver substance. Paul Graham. >> That's a good quote. I think about think about a complex problem you had and then you go well hold on why are we talking about this we know that the fundamental problem is this person is not doing that and that's why all this is [ __ ] up over here so why don't we just fix that you've heard everyone's had conversations like that

01:30:34 - 01:31:14

>> so rather than building technology around a person just get rid of the person >> yeah or what potentially absolutely but yeah I mean it's it's how many times have you said let's bring it back to basics you know how many sports people who aren't doing something right you know these swings not right in golf you go you know whatever it is let's bring it back to basics it's always let's bring back to basics. That's exactly what that quote saying. Simplify it.

01:30:53 - 01:31:55

Bring it back to the bare minimum and then work up from there. >> And something that we talked about earlier I want to bring back is is the idea of reflection. Uh so you've called the founders journey a bloody roller coaster and that you say reflection helps smoothen out the highs and the lows. Um why is reflection so important for the founders and why is it so rare for people to truly sit down and reflect? Two reasons. First one, we don't do that in this world. We're always driving,

01:31:25 - 01:32:04

pushing, driving. Right? If you're going to be successful, you've got to keep pushing. You've got to keep going to the next thing. As soon as you've achieved one goal, you got to go to the next goal, right? You got to, you know, you got to have segments. You got to have a road map. You got to Everything's always about moving forwards. We've talked about the need for humans to always feel like they're moving forwards. It's not natural for us to look back. Um, no one

01:31:45 - 01:32:40

wants to hear anyone say like the good old days, right? Well, just nobody ever wants to hear that line. Even the person saying it hates themselves inside, I think, deeply. But I think what I've learned about reflection, and as I said to you, I I do it daily now, right? And I've really, interestingly enough, simplified it. So, I was going to try and journal. That seems so complicated to me, buying a book and writing long things. I'm out right straight away. Not happening. Can't be bothered. It's just

01:32:11 - 01:32:58

not me. Um and then I read that book um that we've spoken about before called The Gap and the Gain. And the the one main thing and there's so much good insight into that, right? About how to reframe everything. But the major thing that I took away from that that has literally changed my life is every day I get up. There's a few other things I add to this which I can tell you about in a minute if you want. But I write three things that I want to achieve that day. Whatever they are, what I feel is going

01:32:36 - 01:33:20

to have the most impact. What's going to move the needle? Let's use all the [ __ ] names today. It's just in case you want to do a short, you got to have me move the needle. See, that would be a great one. You can even you can put that on Insta. Um, you work out what is going to have the most impact and you write it down. Just three things, right? This doesn't mean you're not going to do anything else, but those three things in your mind at that particular time need to be done today. You get to the end of

01:32:58 - 01:33:41

the day, you haven't done any of those three things, right? You look at I haven't done any of them. Now, that would make you feel awful traditionally. Like, you would go, I went into work today and I wanted to do those three things and I haven't done any of those things. I can't believe I wasted today. Or you can sit there and before you look at those three things, you could go, "What are the three things I did today that had the most impact?" And you write those three things. Now, sometimes

01:33:20 - 01:34:07

they're the same and sometimes they're not. For me, they're often totally different. And then I go, "Well, the three things I did, did they have more impact than the three things I was going to do?" And more often than not, they did. And so it's not a bad day. It's a [ __ ] great day because I've actually done stuff that happened to come up for whatever reason that's actually had a bigger impact on what my goal is than those three things. I can do them tomorrow. And sometimes it's two of

01:33:43 - 01:34:35

them. Sometimes it's one of them. Sometimes you do all three and then you feel even better. That's the best day. But it's just that moment of just looking back and going, I didn't waste my day. I actually had an epic day. But what it also does subconsciously is it teaches you to understand what has the most impact. Because sometimes what you think is going to have the most impact is not simple. Such a simple thing. Write three things in the morning. Write three things in the evening. Read them

01:34:08 - 01:34:54

both. Takes 20 seconds and to write them and maybe two minutes to think about them. And it makes you feel so much better. And it makes you feel like guess what? Moving forward. >> Yeah. And and foresight and hindsight are two very different things. >> Oh. Oh my god. Yeah. Hindsight's the best thing in the world usually [laughter] >> when you when you look at it positively. Yeah. But it's I mean that you can do a lot more than that and you can take it to a far more advanced level and if

01:34:32 - 01:35:21

you're not simple like me and your complex god you can you can do amazing things I would imagine. But for me that that's amazing. It's it's changed and and most successful people never look back and never pat themselves on the back and never even I mean you know I've got a guy who works for me my head of content and he says to me every month you know we've done this month it's [ __ ] insane. Like can you believe what we've done and we've changed this month? It's it's every month and you

01:34:56 - 01:35:55

don't realize he's someone who always does that. I actually love having him around for that particularly by the way. I love having you around all the time. But um it any kind of reflection I think is is so powerful in terms of helping you drive forwards. >> What do you think it does? Like what impact does it really have? learning more than anything I think it has a positive impact because if you don't ever understand what you're achieving what are you you don't get that sense of we like we saw it's not

01:35:27 - 01:36:12

just moving forwards is a sense of achievement right people love a sense of achievement imagine the satisfaction of finishing mowing the lawn if you want a really simple analogy or painting a wall when it's done the sense of achievement is great right the same thing in business if you've done something and achieved it you should look at it and go great that was good that I did that and it builds your confidence in yourself to be able to do stuff because you realize how much you're doing and if your

01:35:49 - 01:36:59

confidence builds then you achieve more and you know you get in the positive spiral up. >> Yeah. >> Last question >> ever. >> Ever? [laughter] Of course not. I'm sure I'm sure we'll have plenty conversations to come. Um, when you think about your daughter seeing this interview in 20 years to come, what do you want her to understand about the truth of success? That's a powerful question. My daughter's 17, so she quizzes me on lots of things. She's actually beginning to listen to me now,

01:36:23 - 01:37:37

which is exciting. So, in 20 years, she'll be 37. I want her to watch this and understand that it's really hard but making it look easy is important. Why? Because when you're a leader, if you look panicked, if you look out of control, if you don't look relaxed, guess how your team feel? >> If you look like you've got it under control and you're relaxed, they feel that and they perform better. And if you're going to build anything, you need them to perform at their best.

01:37:05 - 01:37:56

>> You weren't expecting that answer, were you? >> I I think it's prolific and I think it's it's true. You you have to uh there's a quote or like a analogy for this is like you got to be a duck. >> Yep. Swan, whatever. >> Whatever. Like you got to look calm, cool, collected, and then underneath you got to be paddling like hell. There's been bouts in my business where the team look at me and and they they're like, "He seems stressed. I should be

01:37:30 - 01:38:09

stressed." It's almost like a tribal thing. Maybe the the leader of the village is panic. So then therefore I must be panicked. It's like when um when I'm stressed when someone knocks at the front door and my dog becomes stressed. He's like, "Ah, there's a problem." >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So it's almost like a a tribal thing. >> My wife is stressed if I'm stressed. >> Yeah. >> She's like, "Why are you stressed? It's

01:37:50 - 01:38:43

stressing me out that you're stressed. What the [ __ ] is going on?" >> Yeah. It's it's I think it's it's it's it's an energy exchange. That's what it is, right? Like, you know, we talk about um when we mentor, help people, it drains our energy. We talk about when we're with people, we're sharing energy and it feels energizing. If you feel stressed, you portray that negative energy into other people, whether you want to or not. And if they work for you

01:38:16 - 01:39:02

and they rely on you, and they do. And I think one of the hardest things, we haven't touched on this, which and it probably wasn't relevant, but as a founder or an owner of a business, you're not just responsible for your employees, you're also responsible for their children. Sometimes you could be responsible for their parents. Like you're responsible for all the people within their lives and all their lives. That's a massive responsibility. It's and you need to take it very seriously.

01:38:40 - 01:39:19

You need to take it very seriously because this is people's lives. And so they if you want them to feel comfortable and we just talked about how you perform better when you're relaxed, you have to make them feel that you are because then they will be. It's as simple as that because you've got to give them that energy of positivity. >> Yeah. It's kind of like you show up and you're the weather. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you think about the difference, you know, between a manager

01:38:59 - 01:39:49

and a leader. There's lots of different definitions, but to me, it's how you portray your energy. Managers don't really give their employees energy. They don't give them anything. They just give them structure. >> Whereas leaders give them energy to enable them to go and do their jobs. I would agree with that. There is a big difference between, you know, manager or boss and and a leader. >> 100%. >> Uh there's one last quote I'm going to read you and it's uh a beautiful quote

01:39:24 - 01:40:31

from Bruce Lee and he says that no matter how the rain falls, we must not blame the clouds. Instead, we must get out our umbrellas. >> Did he say that? >> Yeah, it's prolific. But it's like uh you can't you can't blame the stress. You you have to find a way uh to navigate it. You have to find a way to change your state whether it be music >> or own it. >> You know the other when I see I hear that statement I think I blame people for things sometimes then I talk myself

01:39:58 - 01:40:44

out of them and know that it's me and I need to own it because ultimately whatever situation I'm in is my fault. >> Yeah. it is whether I let someone do something to me that's still my fault I let them do that to me I didn't have to you know there it's always your own fault so I would just say you just need if you if the clouds raining or whatever just [ __ ] get wet and enjoy it [laughter] >> um yeah [laughter] I think I think you're right I think you know we get into the

01:40:24 - 01:41:18

business because we want to win and then when we when we're failing it doesn't feel like the right time to dance but I think there's there's something >> there's something something there's something simply fun about like enjoying those hard moments. Um, I'm trying to remember who said this. It was uh oh, another Grant Cardone quote. He said that if you're in business, you have to love the whole game. You can't just love it when you're winning. >> You have to love it when you're losing.

01:40:50 - 01:41:35

>> I mean, you do maybe not love it, but you have to kind of love it. >> I think if everything's your fault, >> then you can change it because that means you're in control. That's how I try and look at it. That's what I try and tell myself. >> So good. >> Yeah. Take taking that that extreme ownership, taking that complete responsibility. >> If if it's no one else's fault, then one person can change it, you can change it. So whatever's going wrong, well, I can

01:41:13 - 01:41:56

change it because it was my fault. >> Yeah. >> Wasn't their fault. I can't not change it because it was their fault. It was my fault, which means I can change it. So I'm in control again. And that's when you come up. It's when you learn. That's when you get your pathway. That's when you get your your J curve. All those things right come from that sense of understanding that anything's solvable as long as you take ownership of it and go and understand that it's your fault.

01:41:34 - 01:42:38

So the only person who can fix it is you. >> In closing here, uh this is a question we always end the show with and the reason I started it was because I'm a guy who owns an agency who takes massive agency and I wanted to blend the two together. For you, what does it mean to take massive agency? >> What does it mean to me? It means everything to me. It's what powers me. I often say cuz I like the sun that I'm solar powered. But in answer to your question, I think I'm agency powered.

01:42:05 - 01:43:04

Like I love that I am driven. I love it. I really do. I am so [ __ ] happy that I am wired that way. I look at people that aren't and I feel really sorry for them. I probably shouldn't because they're not bothered by it, but for me, I I can't say this because I don't know. I would be so sad if I wasn't driven. I love being driven. I love having huge amounts of energy. I love doing things that other people don't want to do. >> Why? Why? Where does that come from for

01:42:36 - 01:43:47

you? >> Cuz I enjoy it. I enjoy being different. I enjoy working with people. I enjoy being my own. I enjoy it all. I enjoy everything about my life. My life has been crazy up and down and it hasn't necessarily worked out the way that I would have thought, but I wouldn't change anything. I have loved all of my I love my life now. I really do. Even things that are going wrong, I kind of love it at the same time. I just really enjoy myself 99% of the time. And I love the fact that I do. I love that I have

01:43:11 - 01:44:02

optimistic. I love that I'm positive. I love that I can push through barriers. I love that people like me. I love that I have no hair. No, I don't like that's the only thing I don't like. Actually, it doesn't bother me. But [laughter] no, I just I really do. I'm I don't want to say I'm a positive person because I don't think I am. I just really enjoy things. Like nearly I think there's something to enjoy in everything and it's pretty easy to find it. I I really enjoyed this.

01:43:37 - 01:44:30

>> Good. >> This has been a really fun conversation. Um, I just I I'm I'm in admiration in what you're building. I'm aruck by the magnitude of the detail you put into everything that you touch with your businesses. And um, you certainly surrounded yourself with very intensive, like-minded people. And it it tells that you're only going to find a way to make this work. >> Hopefully, >> if there were anyone I'd met that can make what you're building work, I think

01:44:03 - 01:44:53

you're the guy to do it. Um, but it's been a pleasure and uh I'm sure we'd love to have you back in the future, but genuinely thank you so much for being here. >> I'm coming back just to sit in these chairs again. [laughter] >> Um, I've really enjoyed I you've asked me questions that no one has ever asked me ever, which I love. And I think I said to you before, my favorite thing in the world is to sit on stage and not tell and not tell anyone anything, but

01:44:28 - 01:45:10

just have everybody ask me whatever the [ __ ] they want to ask me from every corner. And I I could sit there and do that for days. I really enjoy that. >> Well, you're a natural and you're a talent and I can tell you enjoyed it. >> Yeah, it was good. And we had snakes. We had >> snakes. We did have a break. We did have some chocolateies. Yeah. >> Snakes. >> And we both like the green ones. It's so wild. I've never met that before. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's like, "Why?"

01:44:49 - 01:45:35

>> You know what we should do? Let's start a business where we just make green snakes. >> I hope you said what should we call it? Green snakes. Green eyes. >> Green eyes. I like green. Yeah. It's I I always like brands that just, you know, it says what it it does on the tin. Green snakes. >> And we'll put them in a tin. No one's ever put snakes in a tin. [ __ ] it. Let's do it. [laughter] >> I'll brand it. >> Yeah, you brand it. I'll eat them.

01:45:12 - 01:45:30

[laughter] We'll be fine. >> I mean, 100% was me at work. It's >> been a pleasure, man. Thank you so much. >> Pleasure. [music]

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