Mastering Leadership Under Pressure | Michael Hooper

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hoop is on hand Hooper Hooper again you're a mile away from home [ __ ] isn't working you know you're just like oh well the easiest thing is to quit W the lower you pull a rubber band the higher it can shoot but I love those moments now there're some of the most rewarding bits Michael Hooper is a w ofes Legend known for his Relentless Drive unmatched grit and game-changing plays on the field as an athlete your definition of a healthy ego and maybe an unhealthy ego is yeah I mean it's how you Define ego

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when you say oh that guy's got an ego that's not necessarily a good thing a healthy ego would be understanding what you're good at what strengths you can bring to the table then how can you get those even better I think it's a level of control and comfort that it gives you that where it starts becoming negative is Michael Hooper you played for the Wes in 125 tests you are the 82 Australian Captain the youngest over 50 years and you are one of the most decorated players in Australian rugby history

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welcome to the agency podcast thank you for having me dude what a phenomenal amount of Feats in such a small period of time when you were so young yeah know um it happens quick I think when you when you think of a well now i' finished my career you're kind of never thinking about what's been before you or what you've done or certainly this the way I I sort of approached it what what you've been done you're just kind of rolling on roll roll in on you know what there's

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another tournament coming there's another trop trophy to try and win um on a team level you know there's it's a huge exciting thing it's a really fastpac moving moving game particularly now in the modern game there's there's not many off weeks in a year so there's plenty that's ahead um and you know sometimes there a little bit of a regret because you don't appreciate some of the things that have happened through the career on a you know you're representing

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your family and your friends and you don't get to dive into that and enjoy I didn't certainly lap those some of those times up but um yeah no it was a great great experience and quite condensed um still pretty young in in in the terms of a professional athlete now but um yeah the time was right for me to sort of call it and and we were joking before about how we're a similar age so I'm 34 I hope you don't mind I reveal your age which is your 32 and uh we're joking that we played habo hotel around the

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same time so we might have met yeah who knows we could have met online yeah um and so dude you became the captain of the Wes in 2014 at age 22 that for someone at such a young age is I imagine quite taunting because you've got a team of potential players that are like 34 35 that have kids and here you are 22 captaining the team yeah I was completely naive at the time to be fair like I um look what I was doing and why I was put in that position was I was playing consistently I was playing well

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um and I had been in the team for a couple years and I was playing consistently I wasn't picked um at that time to be the captain the captain got injured I was Vice Captain alongside um alongside another player and he he did a season long injury actually injured his knee St Moore and then I was um I stepped up into that role and within that role I was yeah like I was playing well and I think you know I was young so it's the coaching staff at the time saw it as a good sort of apprenticeship into

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that um position now when I look back I was completely um not ready for the job I think um why do you think you weren't ready well I think uh well you don't know what you don't know but I was nervous around how I could probably ask for help to upskill myself so very much I went inila as opposed to you know going out and going okay well I don't know this this this this this um you know how can I improve how can I upskill myself so if things do occur or if things are occurring who do I reach out

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to to to get some help to get you know maybe a past player or outside of the industry to someone who may seem a similar thing because business sport life like it's all pretty similar or the themes of these these issues or problems um you know adversity are happening everywhere so what are some of the solutions I could have you know benefited from from asking um in and around but I went Ina um a lot of the times and it was a tricky time um you know even though we had a great year we we won won a Super Rugby title that year

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in 2014 um we were doing actually quite well as a as a wabby team through that time as well winning more than we're losing but you know every game when you lose you think the world's ending in your little microcosm that is rugby and um it's not until you actually step out and you realize it's yeah of course you're trying your best and everyone wants to win but it's not that big like it's not the end of the world when sometimes I probably took it as that well that's the thing about hindsight I

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think when you look back on things you can easily say to yourself well I would have done this or Chang this or adapted things other different ways I think when you when you take hindsight into account it's difficult because at the time you're doing the best you can with the tools you have uh with the mindset you have so I guess going back into your 22y old mind at the time like was there any imposter syndrome was there any fear about you know going from I guess um I guess second in command to being the

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captain like what was that transition like what were the uh insecurities that that came to the surface in those moments yeah so yeah hindsight's an interesting one and I think I don't regret anything that happened uh and I don't regret anything that happened or occurred because then it teaches you something so what I didn't do at the time is and I mention this just now is I didn't ask for help so um you know I got hit up by some great previous players saying hey if you ever need anything

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give me a call and I didn't call them and I who were some of those players oh uh like I mean to name a few some wabby captains John eels George Gan like um just friends are some really class um people and you know that's a great thing about the rugby Community like you know they'd seen and done things before and similar situations I'd been in and go oh if I can help this guy I'd love to help him now how did I interpret that as a 22y old guy well if I reach out and speak to them and go hey mate like um

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I'm having this problem or this is occurring you know um then my impression is I go or then they know that I don't know what I'm talking about oh okay so like U maybe potentially a little bit of ego now I didn't I don't like at times certainly through my career I've had an ego go of um trying to protect um things that you know I had done or doing but I think it was more just nervousness like you know I was young I was 22 I was trying to figure myself out still trying to be a part of the team still trying to

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you know I probably a little bit individual in my mindset as well I was trying to be you know my my goal was to try to be the best player in the world and um you've got to be a little bit selfish to to do that so you know to make that switch from going okay well I'm just going to try and really focus in on my be a bit part of the be a good team man but how can I be the best player I can be to then shift into what are the team's needs and you know balancing then what what are the teams

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needs how can I contribute to making everyone function their best and then also I need to perform and there's a structure and a as you know time went on there's a structure and a way that works for me that I became better at doing that and how that works for me might be different to someone else but if IID asked for help in those earlier times and early periods uh I think I could have you know sped up the timeline for me because if if I'd gotten advice of say one of those people I'd mentioned and he said you

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know this is what's happening this is what you could do and I agree with it great or if I go oh I don't agree with that that's still good because then I then I um I sort of understand as well I've got a way to do things now and where I was sitting was because I didn't ask for help or didn't really go out because I was worried and concerned about what other people might think I think then I go um I just question myself constantly and don't actually choose a path and I think that's the

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that's the opportunity I missed but no regrets because now I think it's um you know a real part of me and one of the things I stand by is really important I think you know some of the things you touched on there one which is ego two which is like you know hindsight doesn't really um help uh after the fact you know when you're in those moments you can just take the lessons while they're there if if if you were to go I guess back in time and and ask yourself like as an athlete what's your opinion on ego

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like is it something that is a necessity for an athlete to have an ego uh is it something that can get in the way like how do you get that balance or well yeah I mean it's how you Define ego how would you define ego um I feel like sometimes ego can be uh misconstrued as like being something that's a negative okay um and I would agree with that yeah like when you say oh that guy's got an ego that's not necessarily a good thing is it when you say that um someone said oh geez you know Michael's got an ego I'd be like oh

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jeez I don't want that into you know I want to have an ego yeah don't want people to have that but you want to play to be confident totally so like as an athlete like what what would you say as an athlete your definition of a healthy ego and maybe a unhealthy ego is well I think a healthy ego would be understanding what you're good at and what strengths you can bring to the table and then also how you can well then how can you get those even better and then what other things that aren't

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your strong suits which we all have as well so where can you know you definitely improve and where where is something where hey I'm just going to stay out of that like my position in the team well I was a Ford played up front you stick your you make a lot of tackles you you get through a lot of work uh you sit in a meeting and they might be discussing about you know putting plays together or things like that and the ego says oh I want to contribute to this conversation yeah I've been around a

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while I should throw my hat in the ring but the reality is going hey I actually don't have the level of expertise that probably you know gives my opinion real strength in this so I should just sit back and and let the people that actually really do know what's going on think about it but then also not too little to sort of sit back at the back of the room and go oh that's their job also to you know ask and try and help where you can get the best result if there is a valid opinion that comes to

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mind so I I think it's it's it is nuanced a healthy ego but you know I mean I'm men to hear what you think and you know in the world that you've lived in and then also viewing what you know sport sport looks like you know we see so much about you know big Egos and you know that creates good players you know confident players and competing in everything they do what what's your take on it all I I think you're right in many ways like I would classify the word ego as maybe potentially what what I would

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call a briefcase word and by briefcase word I think everyone's interpretation of ego is potentially different I think it if if I think about sports and high performers um you kind of have to have somewhat a disillusioned level of confidence like enough to pull you through something maybe you haven't dealt with before and go take a deep breath persevere push through and kind of like act out the moment as if you know what you're doing and then like reflect on it later in business I think

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an ego a health ego for me personally is like having some self-confidence and some belief that like I can hold my own I can bring my value to the table I can have an opinion I can help people I think where it can be unhealthy in business is when you're not uh allowing yourself to be as contemplative on how you operating so what I mean by this is if you're in a meeting uh often times CEOs will just kind of blast out their opinions and not really listen to anyone in the room because they're the CEO and why would

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they listen to anyone I think depending on what room you're in it it doesn't matter who has an opinion or an idea it's like the best idea wins and I think to have healthy ego on businesses to go hey guys we have a big Target we're trying to hit it's maybe unrealistic that we can hit this Target but I think we can if we put all these resources together what do you guys think and like pulling in different people to weigh in their opinions and just making sure as a CEO you're kind of focused on the stuff

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that you can bring to the equation but not dampening everyone else's opinions thoughts ideas and so on so I think you have to have a level of uh Charisma and demand and foresight but at the same time you got to kind of know when to like accelerate and when to break if that makes sense it's a hard balance isn't it because as a CEO you would assume or you know uh someone that's been around a senior player in the team or person in the business um has seen a lot more than say a first

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year uh player in the team or you know employee but that employee might have one of the best answers but he probably won't so getting unlikely un stally l so so you know you you sit this you know this this opens up a whole can of worms you sit down in a meeting room and however many people how much weight do you give to everyone's opinion you know and how do you balance that how do you talk through that as being a situation um as being a you know something that is almost graded but can't be graded in a

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way so it's a very tough Dynamic to encourage you know um the importance of yeah get your voice heard or your idea heard so the best idea wins out but the exec ution of it is a real challenge as well I I would agree with that and there's also um a layer what I would call like frame frame of thinking so have you read you might not have read this there's a book called six hat Thinking by Edward debono great book six hat Thinking by Edward debono and he writes in the book where there's six

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ways of thinking so there's like an emotional uh way of thinking where you're thinking purely from like I have a feeling and it's this my gut says to me this the second one is a black hat which is like pure skepticism pure negativity like being a total Debbie Downer and stripping everything back then you have optimism and all these different hats and frame of thinking so I think if let's just say you put a SE Suite of people together or you put a team of athletes together from your

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experience would you say that there's the person on the team who's typically negative and then the person on the team who's typically too optimistic and then the person on the team who's super emotional and then the person on the team who's like factual in evidencebased these are all hats and what the book talks about is like how get an effective team in sports or in the boardroom and it's like everyone should learn how to wear all the hats okay yeah so that's that I was going to ask you what's the

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solution to you know all these hats and how do you get them get the right result he says that you got to learn how to wear all hats and yeah so hypothetically let's just say you were having a meeting with Wes and like you guys sat down and you like okay cool like um we need to hit a goal this year and the goal is this how do we all feel about the goal you go around everyone tells their feelings and if they get off their hat you're like eh like blue hat which is like we're not talking about facts right

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now we're talking about feelings what do you feel then when everyone's expressed their feelings you go around again let's talk about the facts then you go around again and you talk about all the risks around again talk about all the opportunities until everyone's voices are heard and then it's like everything's on the table to be discussed um the point is I think ego is difficult because it depends how things are being conversed what the experience is what the thought behind it is what

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the intention behind it is and so on I think when it comes to sport like what's been your experience you know in the locker room versus on the field like have you seen a myriad of different egos kind of orchestrally like working together to try to win the sport yeah and I think that's what you want that's the benefit of a team you want people to see things differently because that's where you're going to get the best idea wins out like uh 15 mes is going to be a hopeless team you know I believe that

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like we'll be good at one thing and one thing alone there's going to be so much stuff that we we miss out on that's a beauty of of rugby of different sports is you got to it's a puzzle you got to fill the pieces it's different size and shape pieces that all all fit together and you know rugby rugby is certainly a game like that but um yeah it's it's it's a tricky one with sport because when you're playing well there's somewhat a level of you know confidence

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and bravado that you can bring to the table so maybe maybe you have a cracking game on the weekend and this is where that sort of self- understanding is really important but have a cracking game on the weekend then the Monday meeting rolls around you're like I've got a voice today you know but then definitely you know something that you notice in the locker room is um when players are down on confidence down on form um a bit more reserved you know you you don't not as quick to jump up and

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and make a statement and to cut through that is really important because if there's a player Who's down confidence but has a really good idea it's a shame if that just goes to waste and it's squashed out by someone who's like no you know like I'm you know doesn't say this but overtly because it's not the you know Australian way some of the time but to go yeah I'm playing well so I think this but usually you know sometimes the best idea is the most convincing idea or not the best idea

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sorry the idea that wins out is someone who says it in the most convincing way or comes from a place of you know more confidence in the idea it's like if you sell me that idea we're coming in you know we're going to follow it so you know you you don't want it to be too oneway swayed how do you think the the Wes have been able to manage that over the years and how would you describe the year that I guess you played in yeah I mean we had you know a Topsy Turvy sort of time as we um throughout my career

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would win some big games then lose some games that we probably should win and consistency was that probably a real difficult piece for us we had a a great opportunity and also a real hard challenge in the sense that we played a team a lot in so this is New Zealand through the time that they were just the best team in the world consistently so blacks yeah the All Blacks so from my time 2012 through to 2023 was my last test with the Wes um you know the the All Blacks won two well they won a World Cup in 11 a World Cup

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in 15 semi-finalist in 2019 we play them three times a year every year and so you know I I mean 50 close to 50% of my games would have been against New Zealand you know so that's going to be hard I say that's that was the challenge side of it the opportunity side of it was the fact that I loved that opportunity in that challenge because um you beat them you're best in the world so the fact that we could play them a lot was a was a real gift but it was also punish at sometimes because you um

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we got beat a lot um but the idea of winning was was so sweet so it was it was a challenging time in terms of how I relate that to Ego yeah I mean you know because the success wasn't there there's change within the team there's Personnel change there's coaching change there's all these different things and with those different elements you know same as different employees or different you know bosses or whatever you have different ways and ideas of doing things and managing that under the pressure

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that is um media that is you know contracts that is all these different things that um Financial um health of the game that all play you know and trickle down that pressure that trickles down to team performance um and that makes it tricky I would agree with that and I think you you have to deal with a lot you've got the audience you've got the media you've got your coach you've got the contracts there all these moving parts and and some would actually argue that you really Captain through probably

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some of the most difficult years in the wab and perform really well um how did you manage to remain I guess clear-minded and like balanced as an athlete despite like all the turbulence of everything else that was going on well one of the benefits of as we talked about before of being Captain a captain early is I got exposure to some of that stuff early and and a real recognition that oh God that's whole lot of stuff out there that I have no idea on I need to start getting to work with you know

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whether it was asking for help or reading books or starting to understand how I could improve um and that in turn really motivated me and kept renewing the wheel like sharpening the ax like I don't think um it was one of the benefits of not having success I was hungry for success and um you know so what do you do in in in spite of that you try and get better and that's that's you know was always my view is you know I wasn't satisfied which was a torment at sometimes but um also probably why I

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was able to um stay hungry and stay consistent so when you mentioned like the torment side of things do you think in your mind as an athlete there's a certain pedigree of that that's necessary for an athlete to perform uh yes there is an obsession um with you know that was that was the way I buil I was hungry for success and you you know I mentioned some of my goals earlier and they were to you know be a part of a team that won big trophies um the the World Cup and the blow which neither I got to hold got

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close but NE didn't get to hold either of them um you know they were really exciting and then just to try and be the best um number seven that I could be and you know stay stay at the top of my game for as long as I could then the benefits of two well for the team side of things we play in a Super Hyper competitive part of the world like I mentioned with New Zealand and my position as well um was number seven and had really good history um so the the level and the competition around that that spot was

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very high so I was very lucky in the sense that um there was great motivators and also the torment comes from it it's like well God like if I'm having a day off or a week off what's the other guy doing you know you know so there's that that's the torment side of it um which is healthy and unhealthy at times but like I think channeled the right way it's healthy how can you Channel I guess frustration and disappointment and angst anxiety what have you how do you find ways to channel that uh into the right

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place uh yeah all all different ones um as time went on like let's talk about anxiety so anxiety to start off with like I think there's a level of anxiety that's always going to be there and there's anxiety healthy um to an extent um and I've had it at an extent which hasn't been healthy but to an extent it can be healthy because it's that reminder it's like oh am I have I covered all bases here that's healthy okay yeah yep I have great can put that to bed where it's not healthy is when

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it's that rumination of things that you can't control and things that are um always in your future that are always happening and um you know starting to try and control the uncontrollables and and da da da so I think learning how to accept ccept you know that these thoughts are natural and normal um and then to let those go so giving going into game as an example um so waking up Saturday morning you've got a test match on that night and the mind starts going God I hope I play well what's you know I

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hope I don't get injured um is the team prepared oh have we done all the work this week um you know what's the weather going to be you know looking outside oh I didn't sleep that well last night is that going to affect my game so there's some some of the questions that the mind just starts throwing out now there becomes a choice with you know I don't have a choice of those questions coming into my head what I do have a choice is how I interpret them after that so um you know and learn and I had to learn

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about this stuff but what I started to see worked for me is um that's an uncontrollable thing so um you know have I done everything this week yep I've done everything I can um except that that thought's going to come and let it go now it's a really hard hard thing for me because my like I told you that torment of the Mind but to be able to let that go and to understand to go into the game going I've done all the work I can I've done all the things that I said I was going

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to do at the start of the week now I can just enjoy the game and put myself and you know talk about flow people Sportsmen athletes you know other PE you know other parts of the world talk about flow a lot what what is flow to me flow is just being here now so I can compete quicker for you know if I if I'm not thinking about what could happen and I'm just doing I'm going have a quicker response time than someone else and I think when I was playing my best that's where I was at I like that you mentioned Flow State

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as as a part of this and and I want to come back to flow just to I guess touch on anxiety uh and the I guess the nerves before a game or um you know whoever is listening to this and things that they're anxious about do how do you define anxiety some would describe it as like fear of the unknown or fear of the future or what's to come do you think it's a it's exact or do you think there's more to it than that there's more to it and probably I wouldn't want to talk too

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much on it because I'm not an expert I I'm an expert on what goes on in my head well actually I'm not an expert on what goes on my head that's that's a that's a wrong statement I think I'm getting better at understanding how my my head functions so throughout my career yeah if I look back and I go you know we we we get knocked out of a a world cup and a week later I I see some semi-finals players I'm I got to start running like I just got to start running so I'm fit

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for next year years like it's complete like whereas I think if I look back on it and I go well what I need to do is give my yep I get that you want to I get that I want to run and I want to you know stay fit and stay healthy for next year but what's the right plan in this situation so instead what I would do what I did years and years ago is I I would go okay I just need to do it now whereas okay yep that thought's come into my head um I can choose you know what path I want to take after it and

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what's the best path and you know that sort of thing so so yeah I don't want to get into the you know nitty-gritty of what that looks like cuz I can't speak on you know for a lot of people what that looks like what about just from your own experience in terms of anxiety yeah what were some things that you were able to do to I guess help manage it or help navigate it um you know I remember when we had Drew Mitchell on the party he would talk about before a game uh typically he would go throw up and he

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had all these thoughts and emotions come up and then he would throw up and then he'd go out in the field and he'd feel great and it was just like thing where he like built it up inside and that was his method or process to kind of um get ready for a game did you have anything like that um in the locker room that would help Psy you into the right state or get you ready to go into the Flow State yeah so yeah there's a lot um as athletes you get I get incredibly superstitious so understanding what's a

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routine and what's a Superstition so for me what a a we a good week looks like is I'll sit down on a Sunday and I go okay what are the three things I I want to carry into the game okay I want say I want a early involvement in the game I want to have good leg speed and I want to enjoy myself okay great so we're going to train Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday so I want to implement those three things into Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday and then on Saturday that's how I want to play so um how can

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I do that in what a Monday session looks like how can I do that on a Tuesday Thursday Friday session and then once I get to game day okay those questions are still going to pop in my head I should I have done more in the gy should I have done more at training get that that's your thoughts but did we tick all the boxes that we needed to tick because there's a difference between needs and wants if I T you know and why I say there's a difference is you can only control what you can control so a need

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would be well I need to do a couple tackles just to get myself in the mindset um a want would be I'd want to do 30 good tackles in the week but that's unrealistic so no okay great no we've ticked that box and that becomes really important I think as you get as as an older athlete because um you just can't do the volume that you can as a younger player so it becomes really important on being strategic around what's important so then when you get to game day it's like mind starts racing am

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I going to play well well how am I going to play well well I talk I want to get an early involvement I want to have good leg speed and I want to enjoy myself and be in the moment great okay that's what I need to focus on but what if let's just okay breathe and that's probably the next thing is just breathing so that's just an anchor that was good and there's been some great players that have had anchors I think there's some noise made around some New Zealand players that had anchors and I can't

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reference them exactly but for me it was just uh you know a breath and um Carry On or pacing odd Pace um a lot on the field and pacing was my form of just sort of staying in the moment and when you say anchor you're talking about like a ritual or something to kind of switch States or kind of jot yourself back stay stay in the moment so not get carried away in thoughts that might you know take you down a wormhole and I don't know if I mentioned this within that but the diff routine Superstition so

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Superstition would be like um you know wearing the same swimmers every match because I played a good game in them and I did I had those or um did you wear the same every match well no not every match of my career but I had points where I'm like oh yeah like I I want to have the same like doing well in these so obviously washed not going to not wash them you know you're going to keep them clean um but oh that's my game pair I play in those and I just play I don't wear those at training that's my they're my budgies

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that I wear only game day um and that was probably the extent and then it was it was tough to break because initially when you're young you try well when I was young I tried to grasp on things that um was almost like you try and control control a lot so oh I played well when I had that the night before I played so maybe you know that's a reason why I played well I'll stick with that or maybe I did this for I did had a swim before the game oh that made me play well but that doesn't make you play well

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what makes you play well is the training and the process and the things that you do within the week hence why I talk about the the three things that were important for me during the week that's the stuff that's going to make you play well is that you know you've trained it you've repped it so when the lights come on that's your that's your Baseline that's where you live rather than you know if I if I had a chocolate the night before a game that's not going to make

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me play well but I like it so I might stick with it so for me as the career went on it was understanding okay is this a Superstition or is this a routine and there is a difference like okay well I know I'm better when I eat blah blah blood day before the game I feel good that's you know that so that's a routine I think and that's different to a Superstition it the interesting thing I think with the Superstition is like do do you believe that that is potentially a luck thing or a spiritual thing or do

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you think it's more about like control and having certainty over just getting your psyche in the right place of like okay cool like this is potentially a Superstition but like it just gives your brain a little uh nudge of like hey it's all good everything's going to be okay the same budg as you were last time yeah I definitely do I think it's a level of control and comfort that it gives you that where it starts become NE becoming negative is uh you're on your way to a bus to the game forgot your budgies and

00:31:19 - 00:32:08

yeah you forget your budgies or something like that or you're like I usually feel this way on game day like why aren't I feeling this way oh no and you spiral you go I'm going to play I'm going to play [ __ ] you know all that sort of stuff and that's where it can get a bit Topsy Turvy so I I love a Roger federa thing he was like um he tried to have no superstitions but that's a Superstition and he recognized that he's like I try and have no superstitions now but that's actually a

00:31:43 - 00:32:42

Superstition that I don't try and do the same thing and you look at like a Nadal I think he gets peppered all the time about his routine before he takes a serve you know he like just this just that you know wipes sweat off his bre it's always the same every time he serves it's always the same and he's ask if it's a substition he goes no this is just my way of preparing to hit the best serve I can and it's and you know so but that's his his interpretation of it and I think it's brilliant both ways I think

00:32:13 - 00:33:14

that's interesting do you think like um having mentioned I guess um going to Flow State like when you're in a in a game was there a certain moment where things would kick into gear for you was it straight off the Jump like how did you make sure you could during a match where it really counted you would lock into Flow State yeah I I from my personal experience I can't go I'm in Flow State I you know you got sports mode on the car and you just go and you flip it into sports mode that oh how good would

00:32:43 - 00:33:54

that be if you could just um you know you're like gez I like I'll just put it in gear now it doesn't work like that I think um for me getting in flow state was was doing that process that I talked about have I ticked my boxes for the week um except that there's going to be nervousness that comes and except whatever sort of um moment I'm in but Rugby's a contact sport so one of my three factors at all times was I just wanted to get into the game somehow and getting into the game could look like

00:33:19 - 00:34:11

just really good communication it could look like a good tackle it could look like you know carrying the ball um could look like you know any one of those things um so and then once once you have an involvement then it's okay what's the next one and then boom all of a sudden you're like I'm having a good game and that's that's a recognition of you know that's almost bringing you out and go yep good but what can I do now yeah and and you find that you're in that flow

00:33:45 - 00:34:34

State when you're not thinking too far ahead you're not dwelling in the past you're kind of right then and there living and I think it's not actually a conscious recognition of being in Flow State it's just like it's um the ball's there I'm going to get it yeah so you know like it's very immediate yeah it's very immediate yeah it's not their sort of I'm in Flow State yeah no I'm feeling it it's you know when you play when you play video games

00:34:09 - 00:35:10

M and I I didn't play much sport video games but like someone will just turn fire you know one of the players like just turns fire mid game and um everything they touch turns to Gold like that's like I guess the gaming equivalent of a flow State I had U I got a funny story around that so I was um a big counter strike guy and for those that play Counter Strike uh it's it's a very nuanced technical skill set and you got to kind of eat [ __ ] for like a year or two before you can play well but when

00:34:40 - 00:35:41

you start playing well you feel like a God because you're just like in absolute Flow State I actually I I was pretty good at at Counter-Strike and I played a lot of ranked matches and I was getting quite competitive at one point but I read the book The of War by sunzo and that completely revolutionized how good of a gamer I was so for example just to get a little diabolical here like I'd be mid game and I'd be like okay my whole team are dead there's four on the on the opposing team um in sano's ut of War he

00:35:10 - 00:36:11

talks about like taking High grounds or um appear weak when you're strong or appear strong when you're weak or what have you but there was um I can't remember exactly what it was but like um essentially when you're outnumbered flee from Battle and then pick him off one at a time just that one tactic like completely take took my KD ratier from like 71 to like 141 the point I'm getting at here is like were there any books or uh wisdom or anything that that really gave you a transformational output in the game oh

00:35:40 - 00:36:44

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00:36:12 - 00:37:24

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to wix.com studio um yeah there's plenty uh I look I I'm not a super fan of Michael Jordan in in the terms of some super fans so I but I loved in my teenage years I loved what he was about as as a competitor it's you're on all the time apparently he was an animal like if you were late to training he would roast you in front of the team things like that yeah and it's and different talking about different cultures different a different times and you know had to go through that experience you know which

00:37:22 - 00:38:24

conversation for another time but I just loved his you know almost monal you know dedication to being the best player he could be so I I you know he's got a book driven from within which is probably a book it's like a it's not a picture book when you say picture book that sounds like I can't read and it's probably fair but um it's just this beautifully crafted um book and you know I got my mom got it for me when I was young is one of those books with like um a lot of photos and like the history and the

00:37:53 - 00:38:47

biography it's and it's fairly like fairly heavily weighted to the shoes that you know sort of coincided with the time you know I think it was only I think it was written in 2004 so you know it's quite a way um outdated now but in terms of right after his his sort of comeback I think um to the Wizards when he plays for them for a bit but um you know it sort of goes through the transformation of him and through his career and I there's just there's some nuggets of gold in there that I just

00:38:21 - 00:39:15

loved you know around the fearing failure stuff and you know his approach to that and you know just even stuff like he talks about how many shots misses he was you know given the game-winning shots x amount of times and he missed a lot of game-winning shots but he also made some as well so but his approach was always yeah I want to be that guy that takes the shot I'm not worried about if I miss it you know he's he's he's thinking um you know I deserve to take the shot or be you know if it's

00:38:47 - 00:39:43

chosen to be me that takes the shot I've done the work to be there and that was always my Approach I I think there's people sort of fantasize or some people love the idea of the player who's Blas at training who you know can roll in just that natural talent that can just Dennis Rodman do dominate yeah but Dennis Rodman did a lot of work and I and I picked that up in the Last Dance series you know so because in a documentary they make it look like he was a bit of a Loof and he was just

00:39:15 - 00:40:03

partying like a maniac and he just roll in last minute and play an epic game absolutely and there's certainly I picked up that part but then when he comes back in and you know the whole team has to run shuttles because you know he's come back in he's been in Vegas for a couple days and he does those shuttles but then he's also there's the there's that image of him just watching tape and he talks about how off the ball goes up this way and it's spinning that way how would I

00:39:39 - 00:40:39

rebound it you know in that certain way so he's watching tape sounds like the way he partied like pretty hard but he needed that if he's going to go and watch tape pretty hard for that amount of time he's going to need to go blast himself in Vegas so you know there was an element of his balance doesn't look like balance to anyone else but to him so on this sort of scale that just looks ridiculous but um it worked for him now um I think going back to that it's like some players just super gifted Talent

00:40:08 - 00:41:08

can roll in on the weekend bang it out um we fantasize about those type of an athlete but I I think they're the exception they're not the rule the rule is you've got to train you know how you want to play and train to a level that you know you want your game to be at because then you know you're just going to I I think um your lowest game's going to be more consistent than others if you have that attention to just trying to get yourself in the mindset and and everything more often and now talking

00:40:38 - 00:41:36

about talent and like I guess grit um and the difference between the two I think Talent is like an inherent gift or an ability to do something phenomenally almost out of instinct um whereas grit is more you know watching tape or um like you know putting in the Reps and doing the training and just showing up day after day for you how would you highlight your uh talents and how much do you think your career is Talent versus grit oh this is a good discussion I'm interested I'll ask you a question

00:41:08 - 00:42:18

here can you be talented at being gritty maybe maybe that's a talent it's like achievement unlocked right um I don't know I I would say um that's a good question uh maybe you know is it is it nurture or nature right like um this is a great argument to have I think like if I just talk about myself for a moment like the the way I grew up uh I was kind of forced to be gritty so then inherently throughout my business Acumen I'm just like I always go back to grit it just seems like a natural tendency for me whereas

00:41:43 - 00:42:45

some at might all come naturally you're a hustler yeah but I think I think that was because of the environment I grew up in I think it was I was conditioned to have grit because that's it was a survival mechanism yeah so yeah the nature that does open up the nature n thing doesn't it um and you know some may be talented at being gritty or because yeah I think you need both to have a long to have longevity in sport Talent will only get to you to a point before you need some of the other areas

00:42:14 - 00:43:24

to pick you up where would you rate yourself at the beginning of your career maybe versus the end for like Talent versus Grid if we were to separate the two uh I was talented in terms of I had a good uh um I was fortunate that I was I had good acceleration I was robust so I was able to stay on the park a lot which I think is a talent like you know some some poor athletes like just have looser ligaments than others and that's sucks in rug you have a really low injury rate I I got injured but but no near players I didn't

00:42:48 - 00:43:53

have back-to-back bad injuries consistently um which you know you got to stay on the park like you know the most talented footballer isn't great help when he's in in you know um in the ward you know so I was I was lucky but also you know there's an element of I is it Talent um no it's probably it's not not a talent but yeah you're resilient so you know that I can't make yourself resilient physically it just happen you can to an element with rehab prehab all that sort of stuff but still something's

00:43:21 - 00:44:20

going to happen it's going to happen um so yeah I was talented um I was hungry at a young age you know I aspired to I love you know your you know if it was Michael Jordan or Kelly Slater because I loveed surfing or Mick Fanning who was you know an Aussie homegrown and in terms of um the rugby players that I supported and followed George Gan um Steven lham um I loved you know their success they had and they were the best players in the world at the time in their position and then you know in my

00:43:51 - 00:44:53

position an Australian um player that I loved was George Smith and George Smith just had impact on the game so um then in terms of the you know seeing those guys as you know not Idols but somewhere in that sort of if you want to use that as a word it's a word that's coming to my mind okay well what what parts do I need to now fill to you know get to the next level and then that was where probably the grit comes in of learning okay well Michael Jordan was a demon at training of training yeah um Fanning um

00:44:22 - 00:45:15

surfing wise like did so much off the board like Surfers you kind of have this impression that just you know go and Catch the Wave man you know whereas he's putting in work off you know in the gym which doesn't necessarily correlate to to or when you think of Surfing you don't think of someone hidden weights in the gym yeah yeah and getting you know his balance and core ride and all that sort of stuff so there's a lot of work that went in um so yeah I think getting that right for

00:44:49 - 00:45:53

me which looks different to every other athlete because what worked for me is not going to work for someone else so you know you got to be you got to experiment a little bit was there any moments um in the game that come to mind when you really had to dig deep and and have a seriously uh substantial amount of grit to get through um you're talking about times um yeah was there a moment or a time or even a period where where you're like man I really need to dig deep and and like get seriously gritty here yeah

00:45:21 - 00:46:20

there multiple times I think I was very keen to be hungry for team success and we didn't get a huge out we got a little bit and a little bit early on in my career and that just made there it was like um you know a drug you just want to get some more of it that whole holding up a trophy thing and getting so close we got to a World Cup Final in 2015 got beat by uh New Zealand and then it just became okay this is just want to you know have that got so close and we never got it and um you know it was it was

00:45:50 - 00:46:44

times where it was looking like that was so hard and so far and um you know how could you ever get there you're like what am I doing I'm you know playing this stupid sport that you run into each other as hard as you can and I'm sore and I'm tired and I'm traveling and I'm away from home and um you know but I love this and I you know we want to there's a group of guys that are dedicated to try to make this happen but it's not working you know and sometimes it's at those moments where you're like

00:46:17 - 00:47:18

well quitting is easier and they're the ones where you're like you're you're a mile away from home [ __ ] isn't working and you don't know how to get it working and everyone's on your back and there's pressure and um you know you're just like well the easiest thing is to quit um so you know I look back on some of those times in my career and I go oh I'm so glad that had those because there you know we had some decent success but not crazy success but I love those moments

00:46:48 - 00:47:41

now on H in hindsight you know because you f you work out a way you find you know there's a way around the obstacle that's in front and a way to enjoy it differently and a growth you can make as an individual or as a team and there're some of the you know most rewarding bits and I I think it it's so important when it comes to like performance right like you you got to have these bouts where things get dark or get Grim and I don't know where I saw this but I heard someone describe it where it's

00:47:14 - 00:48:17

essentially like you know the the lower you pull a rubber band the higher it can shoot yeah you know and every painting needs um dark colors and light colors to create contrast and I think for yourself do you think that the moments where things weren't really working um you showed up hungrier with more grit more determination and played better because of it yeah there's yeah good question um I think there's different things that you need at different times so you know you know sometimes you just turn up to something

00:47:46 - 00:48:40

you don't want to be there but there you're with a mate who's just like I can't like I'm pumped to be here and you just feed off that energy or some you know you wake up and you go no I've had enough and you're that guy so that's the beauty of a team environment and you can really just you know feed off that you know you talked about the optimistic had earlier like that guy that's running on you know who's just seems to be running on Nitro you know he's just flying at

00:48:13 - 00:49:02

that time um and then there's other times where you need to go and do some introspection and have a look or you read a book and you go oh that's a new way of doing things I really want to implement that and that's the motivation you get to roll back out there um or it's just setting your side on whatever it is you want that go that goal is for you and going I'm running to that and I'm going to keep running to that and knowing that you know that it' be even more rewarding getting through but like

00:48:37 - 00:49:40

I I think um you know what I what I did realize throughout my career is I've played with some really successful guys like guys you'd go um anyone would trade their career for these the career that these guys had had a couple World Cups you know never losing certain games and all that sort of thing and they still want more and they still would have loved to have won this thing you know it was almost funny it was almost a realization that like geez like you know if you won 99 out of 100 games is it that 100 game

00:49:09 - 00:50:09

that would dwell on some of these players mindsets or you know and maybe that's not a not a case for everyone but what speaking to some of these guys showed me it was like well we could have won that game it's like man but you want every other thing like it's all good like I'd trade you in a second but they' still want more so that put me at ease to go stop worrying about the outcome as such and try and get back to you know how you can produce the things that could lead to that outcome I think there

00:49:39 - 00:50:35

there's an interesting discussion we can have here I think okay when it comes to let's just say perfectionism or the pursuit of let's take someone like Michael Jordan as the archetype for pursuit of perfectionism like the guy is seriously dedicated benal everything has to be perfect and well-rounded and we have to hit the championship again and again and again when it comes to being an athlete or even if you're you know taking lessons from being in business I know you you're

00:50:07 - 00:51:11

involved in some business perfectionism is the pursuit of perfectionism in and of itself a necessity to do well no I don't think so no um again defining perfectionism like is perfection one way of doing something or is it multiple way of doing something um Let me let me restructure maybe some of some of the thought here let's just say in your mind you're like I want to win the game and we want to win another championship well you've already got 100 championships why do you need 101 and

00:50:39 - 00:51:48

it's like well because I'm here I'm in the game I'm still relevant and like that that pursuit or the desire of another one is that innate feeling that carries you um a necessity as someone who performs in business or on the the field yeah I I think certainly think that forward leaning forward looking um like never satisfied always hungry kind of is certainly an important factor in it um if you can get that balance right and appreciate what you've done and tied into what else you want to do I think

00:51:13 - 00:52:04

that's even better because then you you sort of take the you know sting out of it needs to be you know trying to control needs to be everything um gripping you know they talk about the analogy of gripping a club head too H when you too hard when you're playing golf it's like you just want to absolutely rip the thing and your swing sucks and then you Duff it and it goes in the pond or it goes left when you're trying to go right you know hold it lightly hold it lightly but with the

00:51:39 - 00:52:31

right intent to to do things and I think that would lead to a better outcome I mean you know I talked about Michael Jordan but his coach Phil Jackson you know he talks about creating the best possible conditions for success and then enjoying the ride and I've absolutely butchered that quote but there's a quote in his books um is it like 10 11 rings I think it's called 11 Rings wearing one with bulls and five with the Lakers or something like that and he talks and that's one of his quotes where he talks

00:52:05 - 00:52:56

about putting in all the best systems and things in place and then letting it flow and you know the rest will take care of itself I think there's there's there's a mindset here and I'm I'm trying to understand this myself recently as well because I'm looking at myself and I'm like okay we're a high performing team uh we do branding for a living and I'm always like almost like never satisfied I'm like What's the next caliber what's the next project the next

00:52:31 - 00:53:24

thing next thing next thing next thing and my opponent was asking me she's like you're just never satisfied I'm like well there's a part of me that's just excited for the next level and I I really want to push myself there and there's this interesting quote I saw yesterday from the founder of Airbnb and he said um get every detail perfect but limit the amount of details oh yeah which I think is an interesting Paradox cuz you're looking at okay make it perfect but like be selective around

00:52:57 - 00:53:50

what has to be perfect for you what were some of the things as an athlete at the the the top of the game like what what are the most important details that you have to perfect um I'm interested with this Perfection thing because you know how do you put out something into the brand world or something you put out how do you know it's going to be perfect until you put it out there so may like you I feel like if you're so worried about it being perfect but you actually never test it it's only going to ever

00:53:23 - 00:54:24

say in your house right you know so so then let me just add a definition to my like what I mean by perfect is like the best possible outcome ah yeah so maybe Perfection you sit there and go it's ready it's ready and like this thing is going to slay like it's going to crush um and but back to I I want to understand your observation here because when you talk about gratitude and um let's just say yeah gratitude and like okay cool like I'm grateful for my house my career my kids my wife what have you

00:53:54 - 00:54:50

but like I want the next tier and and that desire to chase it yeah it's yeah it's a can of worms you're opening now because it's healthy let's open that can of worms man okay it's healthy to be like that but I think it's also unhealthy to always want the next thing too much um so when's enough enough when yeah when when are you like guess difference between satisfied and like needing like needing the next thing that doesn't isn't really important that's

00:54:22 - 00:55:17

maybe a little bit philosophical like at one point all I want is this house and you get the house and then it's like well I now want that house it's like when's When's enough enough so when when so what is it that you're actually chasing like I've heard that the idea behind a car the actual best time of getting a new car is the lead up the anticipation towards getting that new car you get a new car and I was lucky through my career to sit in some nice cars none of which were mine um and you

00:54:50 - 00:55:50

know now I'm not in one of those car one of those sponsor cars and you know it's it's a little bit different but you know the are listening what do you want oh uh I do love the Mercedes G wagons but Mercedes if you're listening um I wouldn't mind an AMG myself but continue I know I think a lot of people feel the same way but it might just be once I once I drive it round for six months is it the same thing you know you're in the better than the outcome yeah yeah yeah so you know that's that's that's the

00:55:20 - 00:56:17

next thing and um you know you say through my career year one a World Cup well now I want two you know but one point one would have been enough so how do you get how do you make the pursuit that you're T you're undertaking worthwhile and what does it mean to you or is it the pursuit that's the best thing and sometime I think you know I mentioned earlier on um I didn't win a world T world cup with a team um only won Super Rugby title some guys won 10 you know like um actually I don't know

00:55:49 - 00:56:53

if anyone's won 10 but that would be pretty damn cool but um you know but I look back and I love the journey that I had and you know at the times I hated the journey cuz we didn't win enough you know so um you know I think as corny and as cheesy at sounds enjoy the journey but make it worthwhile like put put things into it because then you enjoy the journey when you really have a crack at it would you say okay that the like when is it enough component would you say that that comes with maturity yeah I think as you get older

00:56:20 - 00:57:18

you get more accumulate some wisdom I wouldn't don't have that wisdom at 22 when you you do anything you give your left leg to you know get one of these things so um yeah I think with wisdom you realize what's important and how you can you know understand that you can control what you can control and and what you can control is not much at all yeah really really truthfully it is I you know I've done had some dealings with some great Sport pyes and some mental skills coaches and when you

00:56:50 - 00:57:45

actually break it down you go into a game and I talked about how the mind works going into a game um and the things you try control got to hope it's sunny weather no control what's the media going to write about me this week um if I go onto Instagram which I deleted through my career because it didn't help because Joe Blow might be sitting on the couch and go geez Michael hoop is terrible rugby player why am I why am I going to let that have time in my head to like you know he's taking

00:57:17 - 00:58:09

real estate in my thinking going into a game he might not know anything about rugby but I'm giving him time that's an uncontrollable or you know what's what's going to be is the bus going to break down on the way to the game oh I usually eat um a steak the night before a game they're not serving steak in the hotel we staying out oh my God like understanding what you can control now what can you control you can control your training in the leadup and you can control your mindset leading into the

00:57:43 - 00:58:46

game so which is understanding what you can control the rest is just going to happen there's a quote that comes to mind about this which is um I think I think it directly comes from the Bible and it's um God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference and you raise a really good point because like these opinions of others often times hold many people back from the thing that they want so come back to desire let's just say you desire

00:58:14 - 00:59:16

a house or a car or an amazing partner or what have you and you want that thing and that's innately something in you and you're like I want to I want to get after I want to chase it you're saying that you have to start dejecting the things you can't control right and and then be aware of the things you can control yeah but I will say within that uh we are built to have concerns about things that we can't control that's because that is a protection mechanism so I'm worried

00:58:45 - 00:59:37

about what you know all the guys are thinking in this room do I how much am I going to let it impact me I don't walk in here you know someone offers their hand to shake I'm not going to shake like I'm worried about what you think you you don't want to be a [ __ ] and I got to give I got to give him a firm grip and and like you know what I mean yeah but that's but that's good like now no matter how I come in and how I think it's going to you know the person that you meet is going to have their own

00:59:11 - 01:00:05

opinion which I have no control over but you know having a level of decorum is important in that situation or it's it's hailing outside I have no um control over hailing but that's an important consideration because how am I going to get home so you know like within within it all that's this you know importance behind thinking about what you can't control because you're you're you're built to do that you're you're we're social beings all this sort of stuff now

00:59:38 - 01:00:33

I want to just preface this by I am this is just in my world like you know I I'm just trying to learn through my frame of mind and you know when talk about all this stuff it's different for everyone but this is in my world just what I'm trying to so I don't want to come across like I know what I'm talking about I I'm trying to learn in my you know my mind and you know how it works and everything like that just like anyone else absolutely man we're all on our own journey and I think you know when it

01:00:05 - 01:01:06

comes down to it it's yeah this is your opinion your expression and and how you're looking at things now one thing you have talked about is is some of your personal values being about growth and respect for yourself and others um and for you why are these value so important to you uh well I I cited some of those reasons I look at the growth so the growth thing um cited that you know 22 maybe I thought I knew more than I did which is ridiculous how we old do when we're 2 which is ridiculous and so you

01:00:36 - 01:01:31

know very cringeworthy when I'm sitting here now thinking about it because now I'm 32 and I realize how much I don't know and it's um but that happens every year I imagine cuz like every year I'm like damn I was stupid when I was 33 man but now I got to figure it out and I reckon next year I'll be like man when I was 34 dude like what was I doing when you're wi than 40 at what point do you catch up you know yeah so I mean growth and um the respect side of things I think you know is

01:01:03 - 01:02:05

respect the word you use that um for the second part yeah so you talked about like uh having respect for yourself and for others and now when you say respect like what do you mean by having respect for yourself and for others um and and I guess having a growth mindset around that as well uh yeah I think the respect side of things comes from being easier on yourself like being like caring but understanding that God like there's I talked it to nauseum probably but the things that you can't control that are

01:01:34 - 01:02:26

going to happen and the mistakes that are going to be made and that's the scary that's not the scary thing but that's the tough thing with trying to look for Perfection is beating we um we can beat ourselves so much up um up so much as athletes when you're trying to be perfect but something might just happen yeah I think in those times or you know the way you come home or you've got two kids now and geez I messed that out I didn't treat you know my kid right in that or I didn't he's you know two

01:02:00 - 01:02:56

and a half and I didn't give him you know the leniency to just be a two and a half year old and you beat yourself I beat myself up and you know like I want to be a good dad so you you know you can sometimes get I should have been I should have got that right so it's okay that's the learning part of it and then the respect for respect for others God it just you know I've been a prick to people um and you know I regret it but I hope to be a better person and you know at times still got to stand up for

01:02:28 - 01:03:31

yourself and stand up for things that you believe in and that requires a little bit of Edge and Edge is important um you know but not being a I don't trying to get better at not making that so not confrontation was the right word but sort of you know trying to be right um and accepting and that sort of thing trying to I think um having children will do that to you right like I've got a four-year-old and and a uh soon to be 19-month-old and you know the other day I was watching my son um just go on an

01:02:59 - 01:03:45

emotional roller coaster and I was getting frustrated I just had to remind myself he's doing all right for 19 months you know what I mean like he's got it pretty well figured out he can eat food you know he can he can request certain things and what have you and it's just always putting perspective on things whether you're parenting or it's with your partner or with a coach or someone in business I think sometimes you always just have to kind of check that you have the right perspective

01:03:23 - 01:04:37

they're great teachers aren't they kids they're brilliant teachers man and it really test you and you think you don't have time right now way to have kids um so as you mature as a person now that you're a father um and you know having been a wab captain and like transitioning into commentary and we can talk about that in a moment like how have you felt like having children has um evolved you as as a human being oh uh patience uh athletes are selfish inherently um I would Rec I would recommend don't have

01:04:00 - 01:04:51

kids as you're trying to be an athlete it's it's hard it's a hard balance and some guys um they become better as they become fathers I don't think it was the case for me um you know and and that's the you got to go Case by case it's hard because your times you know my wife who's amazing and you know has taken the line share of the kids God there's like a sometimes you leave them at home with two young kids and you're like oh my God like it's hard it's rough man it's hard

01:04:25 - 01:05:35

for whoever's you know at home with the kids and and dealing with them they're they're exhausting tough things um you know so um kids that's been that's been great um to be to be a part of um to see you know learn and and I think so you know talk about um indivi athletes are selfish rather you know just how much you need to you thank you know it's a team effort in in the Family household as it is on the Rugby field you know um everyone need balance my wife needs time and kids need time you want to look at

01:05:00 - 01:06:01

the best um teachers for Flow State look at your kids because you know how my two and a half yearold can be going mental and then five minutes later just be having the best time of his life if that's not living in the moment I'm not here you know so um you start to just view that with a with a less um uh you know with a lens that's really really quite nice but then also you know things that matter when you're 20 don't matter as much um when you get a bit you know and I'm still young so I

01:05:31 - 01:06:22

I reckon someone who's 15 years old than me is going well you know nothing and and he's right too how how was it for you that transition from I guess you know being able to have the ability to be more selfish and now all of a sudden there's a little human being in the world and and and you're still trying to uphold the same career and now you're transitioning into I guess fatherhood and you're trying to come to Tes with that what was that like for you yeah it's really tough the transition um for

01:05:56 - 01:06:58

anyone in business and sport is tough because uh in my world you go from being an athlete who's given um a schedule like it might you even got sleep built into your schedule so like is that from your coach or Yeah Yeah from your staff so like in your staff it'll be like 11:45 to 1 p.m. that's a sleep you can sleep if you want ridiculous is that like thank you yeah so you've got your whole week mapped out you travel you work you rock up at the airport gives you a plane ticket yeah

01:06:27 - 01:07:20

you're with your mates all the time you're training and staying healthy as a job and you've got a goal so you know from doing a bit of learning and and hearing about post play uh past players you know what does rugby give you and what do you need as a as a person well you need a social aspect you need a mental you need a spiritual and you need a physical so the physical is taken care of and training every day the spiritual thing while I've got a goal that I'm trying to get to or whether some guys

01:06:53 - 01:07:58

it's I want to um represent my family or pay for my family you've got the mental which is like I'm getting better I'm improving um da da da and then the social is I'm hanging out with mates then you finish rugby there's none of that so it's almost like your whole life from what it was in in a metaphorical sense dies yeah yeah yeah well so that's you know some those You could argue some of the four needs that you're quite important or or critical and all of a sudden they change now recognizing that

01:07:26 - 01:08:16

and I'm I'm learning this from others because I'm just going through this but okay well maybe having a schedule for me in this next stage is really important even if it's just scheduling you know something with the family that's going to be important having a goal to try and reach that's great um mentally trying to learn and do something new for me it's commentary or a business I'm involved in um you know that's that's the growth part um and then socially well I

01:07:50 - 01:08:47

actually have to text my mates I know it sounds like revolutionary stuff um but instead of just rocking up at work and you know going having a coffee I've got to actually book that in now and for men that sometimes is tricky yeah you're like proactively uh making the effort to hang versus just they're there yeah yeah and that's tough with a family and then there's also the needs that the family have so how do you balance that so you know I would recommend you know having a soft schedule is good and having that

01:08:19 - 01:09:20

and you know you mention that transition part I think you know if you could like sort of bring it down to one word what's important I'd say communication and it's this it's a very overarching thing but communication with yourself and others so you know um for me at home it's kids and wife and mom and dad and my brother and you know trying to keep that conver conversation um and communication strong because you know if it's something that's you know tough for me then communicating that's

01:08:50 - 01:09:56

going to be good cuz that's the whole asking for help thing like I need this and well maybe my wife can help me with that or conversely she needs this um blah blah blah and I just say communication is just so important I I think yeah like if if I'm reflecting on a a time in my life where I had my daughter her name's harow and and she's forign now and when I first had her was like really at the beginning of when my company started to take off like I was in my PJs working for my laptop um making good money from home uh

01:09:23 - 01:10:15

and now I'm hiring employees and we're working on Zoom I got a schedule and I got a payroll and bookkeeping everything was changing at the same time I had my daughter and I had a coach at the time his name is Dan baldry and he said to me well what's your operating Rhythm right now and I I said to him what do you mean by operating Rhythm and he goes think about your mind like it's running software you're going from employee software to fatherhood SL business software and I was like oh that's

01:09:49 - 01:10:47

interesting and I was like well my routine is the same as when I was an employee he goes maybe it needs to be different maybe you need to update your software I went through this kind of process where I started to go okay well if I just take my whole life and just go what's my software right now it's like wake up when I kind of want to at least it's before work um stumble into the day and not have to be too prepared which was how I operated so now I got a child who wakes up every two hours and who

01:10:17 - 01:11:18

needs to be fed and everything changes for you when you were transitioning out of your uh athletic career and into you know fatherhood and into you know now what you're doing in business and investment and and commentary how did you how did you manage to change your operating Rhythm or your mental software well can I just say I think that is a really cool analogy that it's great I can't take credit for it but I think it's cool no but you yeah I mean take credit for it because I'm listening to

01:10:47 - 01:11:38

it so shout out shout out to Dan he he kind of highlighted it because he was like dude like your brand is kind of running software and it's running on Old software and no longer serves what you need to do now and I was like holy [ __ ] okay I need to start thinking like a business owner what is that I also need to start think like a father what is that and I need to start thinking like a good spouse or a partner to my fiance what is that yeah and and so to so to answer it on on you know my world I'd

01:11:14 - 01:12:08

say I'm still installing like yeah like I'm still installing that software because and and I think this is the constant thing it's not like you hit a point where you're like I know it it's just constantly sort of updating isn't it like throughout so using that sort of you know you're like apple downloads which happen every seems to be every week at the moment it's kind of like that just it's constantly going and going and oh I'm in a bit I'm really not nailing at the moment I need to pick

01:11:41 - 01:12:34

it back up and and everything like that so I love that that's a great analogy one of my values is not like labeled in one word but he's asking for help so no not in the mental health sense but also like how how how can I you know you know sit down have a coffee with you or how can I better understand that so um that was certainly something and you know just that communicating with people because when you do ask for help you're like you realize oh that person had that issue too oh I'm not alone in that oh

01:12:07 - 01:12:59

how did you deal with it oh well I like that or I don't like that maybe I'll try that and move forward and so that that's been really important at my part of life and then also just the doing it like making a decision doing something and and carrying on and then in terms of like actually just getting through some of those difficult times like I I saw I do ice Spath the one of the businesses I'm involved in is a is a wellness and high performance business so you know that that spends a bit of time and then

01:12:33 - 01:13:33

like just the satisfaction of trying something new and um you know failing I think um has been really good for me as well because it's almost and you talked about ego well it cuts that out you know cuts it straight off the legs like um and you know I love the quote that I was given from um you know one of those previous players I mentioned earlier it's a bit and it's not about what you did it's about you do and um I find that being really cool and that Reigns true because it's it's you know what's been

01:13:03 - 01:14:21

is you know maybe experience or wisdom or what have you but what you do is the really I guess the thing that matters um when you start reflecting on your I guess pro professional sporting career what do you think it taught you about yourself if if you really submount it into two or three things uh I'm I'm probably dedicated uh when I set my mind to it I think there's a I'd be loyal in that but then I'm also a warrior what type of warrior like Samurai no not Warrior Warrior oh like a warrior like

01:13:44 - 01:14:46

yeah no not a warrior I would never consider myself a warrior I was like what Tye God yeah no um yeah I think but understanding what's good and bad worry okay so I look back when I was 17 18 and you know you're doing things that if I had the lens on now I probably could have you know maybe managed a bit better or you know certainly things through my 20s and and even recently could I have managed that better so I think you talk about a big software update gez hitting 30 years old is a big software update

01:14:15 - 01:15:15

it's a weird one yeah so um yeah now being 30 just turning 33 it's it's um it's been good to understand what's good and bad worry m bad word knowing the difference and and where to put your energy now I understand you have Investments um but also you're you're moving into the world of commentary and entertainment which is uh an interesting one because I was telling you beforehand like I got addicted to drive to survive which gave me context on Formula 1 and it went from looking at cars going

01:14:46 - 01:15:41

around the track to going okay they got tiger degradation they got heat wind track conditions yada yada for you obviously knowing the sport is phenomenal but when you look at commentary and interviewing and all the rest of the stuff that comes with it um what's been your experience how do you look at it and are you applying your uh I guess athletic experience to it and It's Tricky it's a new skill um trying to implement a new skill so I think that's some players make great coaches

01:15:13 - 01:16:10

some players don't make good coaches and some and both good players can can do either and I think the reason is because if I was a player I can just go out and do something and to then be a coach and to EXP explain it or how do I get that person to then be the best player he can be is a different skill set altogether and I think it's the same for commentary so you know you may see something um on the field and you just know what's happening but then to S to sit back and almost be that conduit between what's

01:15:42 - 01:16:44

happening on the field and the viewer is different all together and how can I explain that in a way that the viewer understands and the player is not going to think I have no idea what I'm talking about and I was critical of commentary and I never thought I would do it um as a player and now I'm doing it so I'm doubling back on yeah jokes on me and I am um you know going back on what I say uh a couple of years back so fully aware of that but things Chang open mind and uh but I'm enjoying that challenge of

01:16:13 - 01:17:10

trying to to explain that to to the viewer and explain in a way that you know rugby are such a complex you you're playing it you don't even understand what's going on sometimes and the viewer sits back I imagine and goes what the hell am I looking at here so to try and give some context to what the players are trying to do to the viewer I think is where I'm trying to come from because I a frustration for me when I was a player was you watch a game and you're like we were trying to do this and that

01:16:41 - 01:17:48

wasn't um described in the right way but hey how how how can you know as a commentator sometimes you're not in the change room you're not in the dressing room you don't have full uh scope over what the tactics of a team or a player are so you've got to try and make it up as you go so I probably should call up a few of the BLS I was hard on years ago and give him a break what's something about uh commentary that you um found difficult that you didn't expect to um to try and drop the drop

01:17:14 - 01:18:23

the uh what do you say the bias drop a bias of a team that I love and play for or you know I've had to commentate on Australia verse um you know New Zealand or you know and you don't like oh under this shirts a gold jersey you know like it's I love Australia and I you know love Australia doing well in things so you know to try and be fair but also you know have that level of support for your own team is is a really tough thing and then there's just the time difference man like I did a call the other morning

01:17:50 - 01:18:43

it was we had to we had to be there at 11:45 for a 2: a.m. kickoff and you know like you turn up and play 80 minutes in the game to actually do the commentary you're there for a lot longer um and the guys are playing over in Europe at the moment so calling that game I was I was shot the next day and then the kids are up they they wake up the same time every day so they no sympathy there they don't care they don't care whereas I probably would have got more um I had a leg to stand on when

01:18:17 - 01:19:15

I was a player maybe maybe my Ms would have gone you sleeping there's none of that now yeah you don't get that luxury anymore no and um what something about um commentary that you um like a surprise that you enjoy that you didn't expect to I like trying to work it out like trying to work out what the team's doing and I want to as I as I described trying to make it easy for the viewer to enjoy but also understand where the players's point of view is or where they're coming from or what they're

01:18:46 - 01:19:44

trying to do on the field and and some of the stuff they have to deal with um you know and then when they do execute it well how and then if it doesn't work out well why um so that's been that's been really enjoyable and when you're looking at it let's just break it down into a science for a moment like how do you make sure you're providing commentary that's both entertaining insightful and also keeps people informed live on the spot as the game is playing out well I don't know so trying

01:19:15 - 01:20:13

to get in the moment for it yeah now I've done only two calls in game and and aside from that it's a bit analysis so a formula that I use while I was playing is you got to have a a circle oh I say you've got to like everyone has to but you have to I I um I'm not saying this for anyone else but what worked for me is I had a circle that I knew if I asked them how I played in the game they' give me a real answer and that's important it's important because and and my mom

01:19:44 - 01:20:34

I'll tell you now my mom is not one of those because no matter how I played good bad terrible whatever she'd always say I played well and moms are meant to do that so moms moms that's what moms are for but my dad he was one person I could go how I go goes make Kracken game or not your best you're like great and that's good feedback CU then I can get really objective um even though you know you'd think your dad's subjective he was good for me he was his objective your

01:20:08 - 01:21:02

coach objective so have a tight little group that'll give you objective feedback that'll say oh this could have been better or this was really good okay well this was good May I'll double down on that that needs to be better I'll put a bit of work in and that formula I'm trying to take into commentary so um you know uh how do I go to the producer and they've been super welcoming um and at Stan sport I'll give them a plug you know Channel N9 like they've been helpful in trying to you know upskill me

01:20:35 - 01:21:32

and you this is good this is what the viewer is liking this is where your safe zone is and um having a couple people in there that can give you objective quality feedback because otherwise you just look at it again through you know I might think I'm doing great but hey The viewer's Hating that so it's like I think I'm playing well but the team it's not working within the team so yeah I think that's a little framework for trying to improve I think that's a good idea and I think uh I we kind of do that

01:21:04 - 01:21:55

here with the podcast so like for example when an episode finishes the team give me a scorecard the team behind the scenes and it's never about the guest it's all about me tonality question Pace body language expression and like there's weird ticks that I'll come up with um that they kind of try to dampen out but then something else will pop up over here and then they dampen that out and then something else pops up it's like maybe a nervous tick or a weird phrase I use again and again I

01:21:29 - 01:22:18

think it's so important to have this critical feedback loop with the team giving me a scorecard it's just an immediate feedback loop of like hey this is where we think you're at from our perspective and sometimes I'll be close and sometimes I'm way off I'm like that episode was terrible I felt like I was this this and this they're like actually it was one of your best here's why you're like oh okay so it just constantly helps you get closer to your craft I feel yeah so important and that

01:21:53 - 01:22:47

and that you're so right like oh played so bad but people no no no no no like pull up you did really well and I liked it for this reason so it's or crush it and like that was [ __ ] yeah yeah you don't do it ever again you missed the Mark what's uh what's a bad tick what's a tick so I had a few bad ticks so one of them was like um tapping my foot the other one was like like rubbing like this a lot um at one point I had an episode where I said yeah 276 times you know when you're in a conversation

01:22:20 - 01:23:11

you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and Cab's there like he showed me the the screen on the the Pod and he like here has all these lines of where you said yeah and I had to delete it and cut it out just stuff like that where it's like oh I never thought of how much I said yeah I had a good one uh on on screen it was one of my first analysis pieces and you know I was just you ask a question you're engaged and then um I got a I got a photo back or a screenshot back a day or two later from um someone

01:22:46 - 01:23:38

who gave me a bit of feedback and I was just like looking off like not even engaged like people I'm just over here they're like um you know you make just got to you know bit bit to camera then you go to your guest bit to camera and I was just sort of like there and then I'd be up here you know just stuff like that that you just never pick up by yourself so good it's as weird things you don't realize and I think having in a a small circle of people that challenge you or critique you or that you can trust I

01:23:11 - 01:24:08

think that's a great great Insight um what's a quote or a mantra that you've carried with you on your journey that you wished everyone listening to this would immediately Implement immediately um oh oh man I wish you gave me some take your time some run up we can edit this pause out that's fine yeah uh well that Phil Jackson one I mentioned it's almost like you want to have what we talked about before you want to have that thing you're in pursuit of but then you don't want to

01:23:42 - 01:24:36

attach yourself to whether it happens or not but it's the pursuit of that I think is the interesting piece yeah put the emphasis in there not the outcome yeah put the emphasis in the in the um the energy that you're trying to make it happen not whether it does or doesn't yeah and I think for for me personally when it comes to you know some some events that have taken place recently in business and and Cam and I were having a conversation about this Friday night which is like you know um

01:24:09 - 01:25:06

because we're quite generous with with some people we know and at what point is our generosity sloping into stupidity um and I said to cam I was like well when it comes down to it you know sometimes we just have to to give things away and expect nothing and if that's our mindset do we want to give it away and if the answer is still yes cool don't attach yourself to the outcome the answer is like hang on a second I don't want to well then don't so you've put a framework behind it yeah sometimes I

01:24:38 - 01:25:33

think we just got to you know when things happen in business we just have to imediately just put a framework on it it might not be the best software but maybe for right now this is our piece of software we can update it later love it um when you wake up in the morning what gets you fired up our train so since finishing rugby I train early first thing and that sets my day up I feel like I'm I'm less tired throughout the day obviously with eating well but it's something for me U particularly with

01:25:05 - 01:25:56

where I'm at in my life like otherwise I wake up and the kids are into me so it's a little bit of a moment uh that I can get to myself that I really enjoy and that's and I feel like the best time to get into some trainings early I I I think it's interesting um I've recently learned I'm inverted which means that like um if I train in the morning morning I do well I love training at night yeah yeah cool I I love training at night but what I've learned I love doing in the morning is like cooking my

01:25:31 - 01:26:36

own breakfast I always used to skip breakfast for like decades and recently started cooking my own breakfast and do Game Changer my mood is like 10 out of 10 it's of what are you cooking literally just eggs uh sometimes a bit of toast or avocado and toast just like the exercise of cooking and then eating makes me super happy in the morning as long as it has coffee um last question for you um um how do you want to be remembered uh how do I want to be remembered just I guess someone that um turned

01:26:04 - 01:27:08

up uh gave it a crack but I also hate the the whole give it a crack thing because giving a crack means you're like oh I give it a crack like I think caring is important as well so I I don't know um I just want to you know Authentics are an overused word sometimes so you know um but I would like to be that you know some and however people see me as being authentic that's up to them so I I'd like people to say say that um you know actually one thing I do want to do want to try and do

01:26:36 - 01:27:49

throughout my time is you know not not be a onetick pony and I don't mean that in just the footy sense just in a personality sense you know like to grow uh I think a a really attractive characteristic of people that I've met and and seen and um yeah I think there's something cool in in that sort of that reinvention and um something different you know um not a jack of all trades but someone that changed and moved the gold post it's cool did you know that there's um that quote um has an ending that most

01:27:13 - 01:28:13

don't realize um so we all know the quote um a jack of all trades a master of none do you know the rest of the quote no so it's a a jack of all trades a master of none but most often times better than a master of one oh okay and it's um it's interesting because it's like when you take the whole quote it feels so different than the first half you take the first half you're like okay that sounds good but then you put it all together and you're like hang on a second yeah what have I been missing out

01:27:42 - 01:28:34

on yeah yeah actually haven't heard that that's actually I'll dig into that deeper that's a Shakespeare quote is it yeah it's from Shakespeare which is um I saw um somewhere recently where where it was talking about like there's this conspiracy that it's actually a collective of people it wasn't one individual anyways that's a conversation for another day I've heard that as well cuz how how can one person be that he wrote he wrote a lot of fire and he did it for a long time it's like

01:28:08 - 01:29:05

how is it one guy um but um but yeah I Michael thank you so much for diving into the mind uh what it takes to be an athlete and and you know sharing your time with us today I appreciate you being here man we'd love to get you back in the future no likewise thank you thanks for having me yo my my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day so I branded myself then I started my agency rival and hired a team of branding

01:28:48 - 01:29:43

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01:29:16 - 01:29:30

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