How AI is Redefining Web Design | Dan Anisse

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recently you were offered 35 million to be acquired it really shapes up your conviction it really makes you fully understand what you're doing the trajectory of what you're doing and the confidence in what you're doing was there ever a moment that you thought this is going to fail like probably a countless number of times I've should have blown up like the fact that I'm just here and I'm not homeless is an achievement I understand the way you made this like more accessible with a

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lower barrier to entry was the introduction of AI pretty early on yeah our our man CTO Slater he was always on that Cutting Edge he had that Vision to sort of like see the impact of where it could go Dan Anisse he's the co-founder of relumethe website building platform powered by AI we unpack what it means to scale a company from nothing to go toe-to-toe with big companies like [Music] figma Dan what's up man what's up how you going dude welcome to the Pod and lowkey fangirling our our team here

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behind the scenes love reloom and what you've been able to create in the market and it's just really exciting to see how you've scaled this thing so aggressively and yeah just Keen to really dive in and better understand like how this all came about man yeah it's a definitely been an interesting Journey love the fact that I always love hearing about people using real and and and loving it so that's always that's that's mad but yeah definitely been an interesting Journey

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how I arrived here but it's it's been worth it every single minute yeah man and we were talking before about how you were kind of cutting your teeth in like fashion and you were talking about how you kind of looked at Zara and their fast fashion model and you were playing with that and then we were kind of driving on how fun it was to see people wearing something you designed when I 18 17 18 19 I worked in a in a retail shop selling selling merch and t-shirts and it was like band merch really stupid

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like joke shirts that's like stupid on liners like I don't get drunk I get ugly or like just just stupid stuff so I I would be at work like selling merch and folding shirts and printing stuff and then I would have hours to kill where like no one was coming in the shop and I asked my boss like what do I do when when it's quiet and she's like just design stuff and I remember designing a t-shirt that said Train Insane on it and we'll get into the licensing another time but but we printed it and we sold

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thousands of them and I remember being at the beach one day and just seeing people walking around and wearing my merch and I was like that's just [ __ ] cool they don't know who I am and here they are wearing my stuff and lowkey they're like why are you staring at me and I'm smiling at them for no reason you know but I just yeah you you were sharing how you kind of got kicks out of that like so take me into the world of fashion and how you kind of it's I don't know what I don't know how to explain

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why it's probably like one of the best feelings ever it's that you you you've created something in your in your head which could have been stupid dumb good or whatever you didn't know that you did you never really were going to understand what the outcome was going to be so then when you saw someone wearing it it's like that validation of of of approval and then obviously if they didn't know you that's even better because like you said you looked at him like some weirdo going they're just

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checking that person out wearing that your T-shirt but I think it's just always been curious about building [ __ ] to be honest like you I studied at Uni but it was business and I was more though I guess obsessed with like getting an actual practical experience of that so that's what led me down that world of fashion and I read a lot about the founder zareno atga I loved like how he kind of approached things I was like cool that that could be a model I could do something let's sell like case study

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let's sell t-shirts it's Basics I never really I would say had a passion to sell clothes or fashion but I just I was definitely had a passion to figure out firsthand what it's like to to create something Market it and then sell it and like that Loop that that process and and and that's what drew me to that and I got that hit so I was just selling T-shirts locally using as color when they were just small like they were just not even known it was crazy was about about 8 years ago nine years ago and

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then after that once I got my validation I was like he cool let's go overseas go to China and figure out how to build a collection which is a nice punch in the face of learning curves but now was that's kind of like yeah I've just always just done things to sort of understand at firstand I want to feel it I just don't want to read about it you mentioned there like a punch to the face and like what exactly happened like did you have a good could run on the board and and also from like Zara's

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perspective I understand that they kind of looked at Fashion they were like that works that's rad let's duplicate that and produce that in China as fast as possible get it on the shelves and mass produce it was that kind of the approach you were taking and and what was the punch to the face yeah that's pretty much it so I would go in Australia and go to I don't know Polo rafan or one of these good brands and just sort of say I like that Blazer I like that shirt and I'd take small medium large Xcel so I'd

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have the blocks but then when I went there it I guess you buying like different sizes and then and measuring them no I didn't measure I said that's your job like to the fact was like that's your grading cuz I they always kept telling me what's your grading or what's your pattern what even what does that even freaking mean like and what's your like difference between small medium large and Excel I like all right well I have no idea so I just buy it I go that's your like measure it you just

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send it to them yeah yeah and that would be like your their framework to work off so at least I could reduce that as an outlier of something that would not work but I guess getting yeah punched in the face was like learning about how to deal with like Chinese customs and relations so like understanding like I'm not just going to go over and say I want to make this like let's make it like this just like no take you through this process you got to build a relationship you got to come to the restaurant us and take

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and go out with us and like build that connection before you can just do business so that was a learning curve and then just learning how to actually produce clothes on scale so like my scale wasn't like scale otherwise it's a whole different story but I was 0.1% of what they were doing so but learning about that was interesting like now I want to get a th000 pairs of Chino so how do I ensure like I maintain quality and also consistency across that whole collection so that was a big learning

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curve when you don't have any background and any of that stuff so yeah learned that the way the only way by just doing it yeah and and you strike me as someone who really curious what is it about like the mechanism or the tangible thing that that you think is the most luring for you to come in and go I just want to figure this out like what parts of it really Intrigue you the most I think just the fact of I could actually make something that someone would buy and like I I could build a model it's not a

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crazy model but I could build something that had a cost of good to it and I could actually trade that if I can make chinos for $10 and sell them for 80 and someone would actually buy it I was just wanted to know like what were the the the principles or what like the the what what goes behind that transaction and I think I was yeah super curious just to learn about how that can happen because I just wanted to know what what it takes and I think that was the biggest driver for me so I always just would look at

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things that worked and kind of like work backwards all right cool how do I do that now for myself and what happens then did you have like a couple of rules around how you would approach like hey which chinos do I research were you just buying a bunch of stuff and trying it on like how did you find the recipe to like pick what you would steal I stuck I kept it pretty simple I would only use what I believe I like what I liked so I was the Persona and it's interesting right cuz this approach actually played out later

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in my life with um how I approach frein but I always like to be the Persona so I was like all right cool I like this the look of these jeans with the white T-shirt and black shirt and I thought well there's going to be another thousand Dan out there that would agree with me so let's run with that so I would be picking and then I would just go to different brands so again I'd go to glue and and general pants and find the cuts that I like and go okay that's my Chino that's my shirt that's my

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blazer what else I made hat that's my hat and I'll just that's my boies they're my shorts I just like go and pick from different brands and make my collection you like created an ensemble send it to China and then you go over there and go make all this stuff and then they would say let's go to dinner first yeah yeah yeah let's first go out to lunch and get me drunk on saki I still remember I went over with my mate there were freaking fed this saki I was young I was like 21 I didn't even know

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it's like oh this tastes great and they get like they got me smashed cuz I I didn't know what the impact like I didn't know if I kept drinking this really this Lolly water what would it do for me but yeah it was like interesting I don't know if they they try to like bring my guard down but I I kept it together we got the deal done they try to do a deal while you're under the influence of Saki yeah it that was the approach I can't confirm what deny but I think that was bring initions down bring

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your guard down and then strike it the lowest possible deal I love that for you like obviously there there's some traits and tropes here that maybe you picked up and carried into I guess where you kind of went next with this so what year were you working on the the Zara model and and the fashion label and I think it was called Phoenix yeah so Phoenix was straight during uh uni my last year or second year of uni that's when I started it so I was about I was 19 and then that carried on for about 3 years uh Phoenix

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is a clothing business that's where I hit these snags in terms of like uction issues So eventually my appetite grew a little bit too much relative to what I could take on and I took a lot more risk on so I beted I bet the house on another another collection I forget it was summer or winter cuz it was doing well it was making money and I thought all right cool I've got all this cash now I'm going to bet this on a bigger collection and unfortunately that collection was not kind of I didn't get

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the quality that I needed which kind of then tanked the business because I was just bleeding slowly I wasn't able to get new stock in that that shut down the stores which eventually led to the collapse of of Phoenix as in its first iteration and just a massive learning curve man to be honest and it was such a beautiful like I look back and like still one of my most fondest experience ever like I yeah I I I I still like feel like Goosebumps like I got it [ __ ] tattooed on my my on my wrist to always

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remind me of that beautiful experience but yeah it was just I always I'm always so thankful for it because it was just the best education that I could have ever ever got in terms of just running business learning how to sell and make things happen and and do you look at that failure somewhat now as a blessing or is it it kind of set you on a trajectory to to shift gears oh it's a blessing I'm glad I'm not in clothing and what what's Ted on your wrist I got the F the Phoenix yeah so I got that put

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on my just a nice little reminder just a ni nice daily reminder of like that's where you started but also just always be a cowboy just keep punting like don't don't be too knowledgeable like just keep having that beginner mindset cuz that's if I knew about the clothing business and I knew about all this that Inventory management how to ship things in how to get get a get a lease hire people if I knew the end there's a very I think like smaller chance I would have gone down that path because it it was

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punishing so I always like to sort of like constantly remind myself of having that beginner's mindset because it allows you to go in naively of course you make a little bit more mistakes but at least you do things that you don't get scared off you just do it and I think that's what Phoenix told me they just always have that beginner's mindset go in with your guards down like be smart use your mistakes to to get better but just don't get caught up like oh don't do that or don't like that's going

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like if you're going to start a fashion business that's that's really tough you're going to go through all this like you always have those annoying freaking people that say that stuff in terms of like predicting the outcome but I was like No just going to do it and I'm I'm glad I did that's a good perspective and I saw a quote I think it was yesterday from from Alex hos and entrepreneurs look for opportunities in every problem and everyone else looks for problems in every opportunity and it sounds like

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that naive really kind of allows you to kind of come at things with curiosity how did these experiences that you went through with Phoenix and I understand you did some stuff in influential marketing how did they lay the foundation for relearn it really was to be honest learning about how to get insights that are unique to yourself and and solving an actual problem that has I guess an opportunity size or Market size to it so I think what I learned about both experiences when I went from Phoenix clothing and I did the social

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analytics startup which is called lumio I learned a lot about how to kind of build a company on the found on the right foundations obviously you can have a crack at selling clothes but if you don't have an angle eventually that will catch up with you because you're not really differentiating yourself and then with lumio I figured out because I built an Ecom business which led me down the path of doing influencer sales which L me down the problem of like [ __ ] not all these influenc the same so then I

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experienced that pain of dealing with multiple influences which led me down the path of saying I actually think this company called lumio we could solve the problem of working with 10 20 30 different influencers and increasing the odds of them actually selling your product so I experienced that problem firsthand so it was a unique Insight that I believe that only I kind not not everyone knew but I had a good knowled I had a good deep understanding of it which meant I had that opportunity to solve that and I think that's what led

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me down to real is that being always not willing to start something unless I had a unique Insight that was something that I could actually win and and and go for it's really interesting how you can kind of string things together in business you might not think starting Phoenix might help with a tech components company in many ways it's kind of set some of the foundation perspective or approach to business when you I guess started reloom I understand that it started as an agency and you guys were

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like a design and website development agency initially how did you kind of get into that space and at what point were you're like H like there's something else here I want to change this into yeah so we I started that with my co-founder Adam so him and I we always we were together in Lumia so we were working on that startup we got acquired by a larger analytics company in German that's when I worked overseas I went and worked in Germany IAM stayed here locally and then him and I always wanted

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to start something so we always want to do something but we didn't have again wanted to find that unique Insight so we went into accelerated program which was called antler we dabbled around with ideas there but again nothing kind of surfaced up there that was intriguing enough to spend our time of which is a long time we know of an energy and effort but nothing was compelling enough there to sort of go any further so we parked antler and moved on from that and that's when the idea of the agency came

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so we thought to ourselves all right good we're we're really good at building these marketing websites we want to gain Insight so how do we almost create an insights Factory and that's what we believe the starting agency would do so we kicked off reloom four years ago 2021 August 21 okay and as an agency we just said we're going to build websites for the purpose of obviously making money um because that keeps things moving along but seeing if we can get an Insight from one of these companies or

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get insights into being the agency ourselves so so when you say insights what what exactly were you looking for anything we worked for like a beauty company and we're like oh cool what's this beauty industry like we look into it like that's interesting or we were we work with the chiropractor like oh cool they they're working with a booking app and that booking app didn't work for them and they had problems when they talked about it so we were just like these these clients probably thought we

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were the weirdest people to be honest like we're asking so many questions about their business and like okay you guys really care about Chiropractic business like yeah we do we want to really know how the booking system works and how that's all functioning so we just thought that we could get insights random insights from different industries by working with a tech company a local service a local beauty company kind like like being ATT tuned and aware to like okay there's a mechanism that you use as a chiropractor

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that that's like okay we need a really good booking system that articulates these questions or what have you and you're like taking note of that and then at that point in time we like we could build something better than that or we could replace it oh look it was just we thought about hey was that a common theme across the accounting person that we did a website we're just trying to find any common themes across certain types of personas we we had so many random ideas that came from working with

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these types of businesses so we wanted to build like another potential analytics app or like we wanted to build something that was yeah so many different ideas but again none of them were compelling enough to sort of say this is this is the idea that we were looking for so but yeah funny enough it came in our own backyard so we were building so many different websites over time we were doing it in a way which we're using this component system I guess just like a wif frame and over and over we're repeating that same process

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across 10 15 20 different websites and we're like wow like we we again we are approaching this in a way that it's helping us build websites probably in a quarter of the time consistently and then we kind of looked at ourselves and thought this is this is the idea like this is what we came for this is this is it uh so so you're building this tool to speed up your own processes for your own delivery on your own clients correct and then you started to kind of figure out and I understand this you you guys were

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looking at AI pretty early as well of like how do we because of wireframe it might be good to start explaining like what is a wireframe and like what is a component and then we can kind of unpack it from there yeah yeah for sure so yeah so August started relim as an agency and it was about a year after that we had that inside oh like we didn't have like we started to form that Insight more so when I say wireframe is that effectively when you build a marketing website you have to approach it well you don't have

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to but how we approach it you you want to approach it in multiple stages and for us it's having the first things first is the sit map so like identifying the key information flows and and what the pages look like the sections in that pages so how many pages how they link together correct we yeah we develop a sitemap for the client and that helps reduce scope as well so like okay cool this is going to be roughly how many pages sections and we're like that's going to cost us x amount and then like

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from that we would then go into this y-frame mode which would effectively be the the bones of the website so we wouldn't want to jump straight into the design because that distracts the client from the they'll focus on the gradient or the button like we don't even need to look at that now so the purpose of the wireframe is again to set up the structure of the website from like headline goes here video goes here bio and test like where everything kind of sits correct and with copy so we

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would start to introduce copy write copy as well yeah so this copy would sort of like start to inform the design so we thought that okay cool having that process helps us really then improve the chances of making the design phase more successful so we broke it up into multiple stages and at that wireframe stage is where we again we were using our we built a blocks like these these components and we we're using those they stuck together different ways Y and there's different ways AG go about it so

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then we kind of looked into it a little bit more like we sort of Saw other agencies were approaching it using templates and they would buy a template rewire a template and that ended up being taking longer than just actually doing it from scratch so that's where we thought okay right cool we're solent for ourselves and this is where we believe the opportunity is and then that was probably one and a half years later we launched launched reloom as reloom Library so in Jan 22 at the start of

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that year we launched we launched this no code product So Adam and I worked together on had no developer at the time so just the both of us and we were just hacking together using webflow and different no code Stacks to put together this product where you could copy and paste components for webflow specifically and yeah we were lucky enough to get the product Market fit that we wanted like as expected because again we were the Persona we knew the problem and we knew how to talk to that Persona and uh we launched out in can

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and yeah we're able to kind of get some early traction and really then put all our energy and effort to focusing on that specifically like the the library of components for web flow and figma no AI yet yeah and and so for for the viewers here like webflow is essentially like a website building platform like WordPress it's like yeah Squarespace or wi or what have you and then figma is kind of like a program that ux UI and graphic designers kind of used to like make sure that they're designing and

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implementing structure into websites essentially and there was a point by which where you had I guess produced a website with some of these components on it and I understand that webflow like showcased it or like something happened where you guys got an influx of people asking like how do we do this what happened that was the Catalyst of of us seeing the commercial opportunity of component so what we would do is that we were off the agency well I was off the agency model because we weren't getting

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clients it was it's it's a punish it's not it's not easy you got to sell it it it's it's big ticket items and the sales processes sales process can take time but it was there's a period of time where Adam said I'm going to redesign the homepage and we're like okay cool redesign the homepage what is that going to do he's like no trust me I'm I'm going to redesign the homepage and it's going to have an impact so I was like all right fine let's let's go for it

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because at that at that point well I was I was really I wanted to not shut down like probably just pivot to something else so yeah Adam redesigned it and that's when it got showcased on web flow's main page of like we websites built on webflow and that got that influx of of two things clients people that wanted us to build their websites and I all of a sudden became super busy from a sales perspective but then that's where we started to see the commercial intent of people saying hey can I have

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that gradient oh that what's called gossan blur can I have that component what you did for that website and so them like that's interesting let's make it into a clonable which is effectively something on webflow where you can put it up and people can clone it so we put up as a clone and they got a [ __ ] ton of clones I'm like yeah that's that's yeah so we kind of seen this all place you're like something's happening here and and and did you realize quickly like oh

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there's a different Market fit than we expected we were trying to get people like chiropractors to get us to build a website and now other web devs are like how do I do that for my clients or people trying to build their own stuff or like how do I use that and clone that and do that myself yeah correct and they saw they were just able to really speak to the the speed so like so what what we did really well was show these developers of how they could build websites for their clients really quickly and that could result in two

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things it allows you to either make better profit margins on on one project or allows you to take on two so it just helped them understand or I guess we were really open about not only creating the product of of of the components but also with education and creating content like this is how you build a chiropractic website in in in a in a in a short amount of time and this is how you would present to your clients so we we almost well we are and we still do like we want to create a way a system of

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building a website that we believe is the right way CU we know if you do follow this system or approach is going to significantly increase the odds of you getting a website built in a quarter of the time which again not to say you you you're you're you're making it less quality but we take a lot of the heavy lifting out so you can focus on the bigger things like better client experience better interactions on a on a text or a hover effect like just focusing on the small things and allow

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reom to do a lot of that heavy lifting that's how we sold it to these and at what point were you like we're just going to do this and not do any of the client stuff I still remember six months six months in I was Jen and then it was halfway through J in in 2022 I was like able to officially yeah shut down the agency side of business so in that period of time we also were lucky enough to get our our co-founding CTO Slater so he joined and it was a three of us so we had all the foundations and the

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structures ready to go to build a tech company and we effective effectively had all focus and attention now onto that and that's that's when things started to like obviously ramp up a lot so we now that we had full Focus me myself Adam and Slater on just building out reum as a product it it it significantly changed the trajectory where we were going I like what you said there about Focus cuz I think some sometimes like a Founder can be in a situation where it's like we have clients over here we're happy

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fulfilling this and and making money off this and then there's this Tech opportunity that's going crazy was there any fear kind of like divorcing yourself from that and and putting yourself at risk or or were you just like not like we're going all in it's definitely going to work like what was your head space and how did you transition mentally yeah look I think it it was high conviction to be honest like again all the experience of from before whether know it was from my previous

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I know when something's on it's on you're just looking at the F on your AR just just jump in and Adan at saying that I had it was always called order the chinos right where we ordered a thousand pairs of chinos and we didn't know how to sell them but I had to figure that out so it's always that mentality of just order the Cheetos and you'll figure it out so yeah we jumped straight into it I think we're very confident though like with the trajectory of the the early Mr coming

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through that we could at least cover ourselves and and honestly like the downside very low like end the day if this fails you could effective like we always did think about what is a downside so we did acknowledge it but for us it was like okay cool if this fails the downside is that you turn it free make this whole product free which would then significantly increase the leads of your agency again so even though we actually turned off the agency it still existed it didn't like wasn't deleted from like the web page or

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anything so we just did not work on any new clients but we knew worst case if anything did blow up sure make reloom Library as a product free that would increase odds back to reloom agency and would just make money again and do it again but the the I guess the concept you really going for there was the subscri subscription format and it was it predominantly other web devs and people in the design space and and did you have any surprises there around people who were using it yeah so specifically right it's B2B other

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agencies building for clients they're still our primary Persona at the moment and our main yeah main main people who who use because they get a lot of value out of building multiple websites again with removing a lot of the heavy lifting some surprises there are people who have learned web flow now because of reloom because we've kind of like lowered the the learning curve of getting into web flow because web flow is a little bit more technical but I think starting off with rhythm helped them understand the

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foundations of webflow quicker so there's been a lot of beginners of people building websites for the first time which is pretty cool and I guess the other person is the founders or people building their own websites for their own agencies or for their own startups they use real because again just helps sort of that person was like bootstrapping I got to figure out myself I can't H webd and I understand the way you made this like more accessible with a lower barrier to entry was the introduction of AI pretty early on yeah

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so walk me through that man what exactly were you doing at what point were you implementing Ai and I thought I find it really interesting that you were doing this very early before AI was kind of like quote unquote a trend look it yeah well creditor our man CTO Slater he was always he was always on that Cutting Edge I remember he used to show me I think it was gpt1 like oh look what his doing I was like man like what what is that like it's not doing anything but he had that Vision to sort of like see the impact of where it

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could go so we were always yeah we're lucky to have I guess that that inside and always that that sort of thinking behind the scenes but I think what we collectively sort of started to look at it's like all right cool we've got this incredible component library and on figma now on webflow and now figma so we expanded out into figma so we had components on webflow and figma and we thought to ourselves well how can AI make the process even better so we wanted to build something that enhanced

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the process and not necessarily just be this gimmick website Builders we really AI powered just for the sake of it like genuinely trying to use it as a functional tool correct like there's a lot of crap out there that you could try use and play with and and see it you can you can go and and and and use different experiences and they haven't really thought in my opinion of like what the actual job to be done is like what are these people actually doing when they're building a website so we thought okay

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cool AI is there it's obviously doing a great job at suggesting a few things and we thought if we could leverage our components with the AI we'd be able to build this experience of what I was talking about before site map to wireframe as we know from an agency as our Persona we know when you're creating a website for a client you want to create that sit map and then obviously convert that into a wireframe so we thought all right cool well we have that opportunity now of of doing this with AI

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so we used we leveraged AI to make our first version so we kind of went into this an iterative iterative steps we just didn't like go straight into it we we tested out first with just like a copy plugin and we were like very it was called real MIP and we're just playing around with how we could actually help people add copy to the wireframes like cool all right got our hands dirty that worked and then the second stage was like how do we now actually build a platform this was like the most

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transformative experience Ser is because we're going from just like this component library to an actual platform a design platform I'm so naturally scared as [ __ ] but there uh not scared like wrong word just more excited and yeah I yeah I don't know how to explain it I just very pumped to see like that's that's it was a big bet so created I a site map view first and that worked it's like awesome all right cool so now you're generating a site map using AI so would this work like obviously our Dev

00:30:25 - 00:31:18

team are using this but like I understand as you go into the browser and you can kind of like type in what you want to have happen let's just say for example like hey I want to launch a shoe store kind of like Adidas shoe store and I want a wireframe that allows me to like sell five different styles and 10 different colors blah blah blah blah blah punch it in and then it spits out a wireframe yep correct and it will identify about us who we are who are the people selling the shoes why they want

00:30:51 - 00:31:41

to sell these shoes here the products here's the product page here's the five products the 10 categories so it would identify the entire the website and like crawl through the internet and look at Adidas's website or so like AI has done a really good job of understanding structures across thousands of websites so they've got a very good understanding of what a good product website would look like you can actually specifically pull in at Adidas if you'd like okay as a reference but you don't have to you

00:31:15 - 00:32:16

just say I want a great shoe brand for athletes you just describe it in the way you would chat to chat gbt into your platform and then would would the underlying AI be chat gbt like what yeah underlying model is is open AI which CH yeah chap GPT which kind of powers reum and yeah helps then create suggest those S maps and then that is the first step and then the second step is like great how do we effectively attach or attach a wirframe to that site map so that section so that's where we have to

00:31:46 - 00:32:49

obviously then build that next stage of the w-frame mode which allows the designers to then convert that sitemap into entire wireframe experience and that's going to now build out this shoe website with sections with copy over five 10 15 pages it doesn't matter how many pages and that puts it into a stage now where all right great you you you've you've effectively created the whole website now you can either export that out to figma to add the design and and take it to another level or you can

00:32:18 - 00:33:09

export that straight into web flow if you're ready to just Dev if depends on your flow right some the the ideal flow is you go from reom to figma finalize a design show it to the client get approv and then you go back to reim export that to web flow and then start building out on web flow however some people build it for themselves they just go from reim straight to web flow and just start building straight away so depends on that user flow or who you're building for but yeah we launched that reloom AI

00:32:43 - 00:33:39

site builder in August last year I feel like August always seems to be a date that we do stuff no we didn't do anything this August so then we launch that in August last year and that's when like yeah things again trajectory of of users and just the appetite of like what we are and who we are significantly changed it was really cool to see you know take that bet and and that bet pull off and now relim is is an AI website builder generates W frames site maps and W frames that exports to figur and web

00:33:11 - 00:34:03

flow and that was like a significant change from just a component Library copy and pasting from reloom into other platforms so yeah we had a new challenge on our hand we had to then start to look to the future of right now right now now we need to start to hire more people in our team and and work and and and take this to another level and capitalize on this opportunity and with the components piece so let let me just better understand that the the way it kind of works in my head is like Widgets or like

00:33:37 - 00:34:33

functions or tools that you could integrate into a website and you were layering that together with the website builder in many aspects yeah like so then when I moved over to figma you're kind of applying your IP together with what the AI power brings to the table and then mashes that together and kind of creates this this interesting intersection between different things to create a great product or outcome for an agency or for a user yeah correct it really just helps get that like you said

00:34:05 - 00:34:56

put in your idea and it can it's that blank canvas problem people talk about where it just gives you a direction yeah it just gives you like a great Direction and some people honestly don't even use it for figma and we flow they use it as a way to generate an idea of what my new website could look like and what the flow of it could could be and yeah that blank Cavs problem can be solved by just putting in a description and and letting AI describe what the website should look like it still allows people to have

00:34:30 - 00:35:24

creative control and to like test 50 ideas and then pick one right so since reum was like quite an early adopter of AI was there ever any apprehension around integrating this into the system or into the software I no we I think it was pretty pretty obvious that that was going to be the future as we've already seen now today I think it's it's different to like the whole freaking all those other waves that came through like honestly still don't even know what the use of I probably get told off but I

00:34:58 - 00:35:53

still don't even know what the Practical use of crypto was when it was out there or nfts and I feel like there's these these these Tech opportunities or waves that come through and I think that it for us for me personally there was just an obvious use case of AI like it was not a fad or something that was just going to come and and and go it was very obvious to me that this is not going away anytime soon it's only like we are we're in its infancy of of what AI is going to be doing I would I would agree

00:35:25 - 00:36:17

with that and when you looked at chbt for the first time your opinion was kind of dismissive like okay cool whatever at what point were you like hang on a second like there there's something really big about this I think it was I think it was an X model uh I think it was GPT 2 or three where it started to really understand how how to describe what a good website is and that's when we started to sort of go deeper into that and say oh wow like it's it's it's starting to understand it's being

00:35:51 - 00:36:45

trained on more websites so it actually starts to understand what a good product what a good shoe website would look like so when it started to really understand that in a little bit more of a deeper sense we knew that that's where yeah again how do we now merge is with our whole world and that was that opportunity that's when we saw that opportunity to go deeper into that yeah and I think the the human relationship with AI is been really interesting to observe for example right now behind the

00:36:18 - 00:37:19

scenes here out yo my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day so I branded my self then I started my agency rival and hir a team of branding Mavericks hellbent on creating Brands so good that they'll make your competition their pants so here's the thing you want your brand to go viral and rival makes Brands go viral that's why we're offering you a free 30-minute branding session to get an expert's opinion if

00:36:59 - 00:38:00

you don't believe me the proof is in the pudding here's what clients have to say about rival rival is trusted by Brands like nutrition Warehouse light my bricks and vomi so if you want to absolutely smoke the competition and make your brand go viral hit the link below and book in your free 30-minute branding session general manager has been working on this really cool automative proposal system and we spend hours and hours and hours every week picking the pages and Cur in the language and calculating the price

00:37:30 - 00:38:23

points for each product like it's quite a rigorous process to put a proposal together as you would have probably experienced running your own agency but he's been using chat gbt to basically like hey what's up chat gbt like I want to do this thing and it's like cool like we can do it and he goes can I use Excel and integrate it into Google slides and then have it pre-populate and automate The Proposal kit and he's been putting in these prompts and chat GP chat GPT has just been talking to him about like

00:37:56 - 00:38:48

do this do that here's the code and like within a matter of like 2 days we've been we've half engineered this system and to me I'm just like watching this thing come together I'm like this is crazy this would usually take us this is going to save us hundreds of hours a year which then gives us all our time back to really then invest more into the creative side of the business so for you what was the initial inertia that that you felt that this gave you as an entrepreneur sitting at the helm of this

00:38:22 - 00:39:25

company it's just that like that example that you said is just the the way that AI can not only just create things or create ideas but also explain it to you right and explain it to you in a way that is as clear as possible it what really has opened our mind is that it's just now in our company with real is always kind of optimizing to what would AI do here and and and it's it's a weird thing to do to be honest like to always think from I don't know how do you hire better as an example of course we can

00:38:54 - 00:39:50

talk about it but when you actually start to poke Ai and ask questions of what's the best way of hiring or how do you do this it starts to really kind of put out some interesting points and I think the power what I've learned is that how you ask it and how you go back and ask it more questions and give it more context and I think what people dismiss maybe some initial responses because of the fact that it's just been one prompt and you say hey make me a proposal like I didn't do it but if you

00:39:21 - 00:40:17

actually go deeper and and and and suggest or come back with more questions it's incred of how much it opens up and I think for me that's now I guess all all of us how we like to sort of look at it real like go deeper and ask it more questions and it will surface up more incredible insights the the the more you probe and go and ask more as as you as you converse with it it's it's incredible So within these conversations for those people that are listening to this how how might they approach that

00:39:49 - 00:40:52

what what are the steps of making sure that they really vet out what it is that AI is prompting them to do yeah like talk to like it's it's it's an expert so talk to it in a way that it's it's a human so let's just say you want to learn how to play piano ask it how to play piano going say okay go and learn this but I think what the power is like I only have this set up out how do I do this I want to learn it in two hours or every day what's the best structure for me to do like so I actually like probe

00:40:21 - 00:41:17

it to say create a program for me tailored around my experience and I feel like I only have 1 hour a day I only have a electric piano that looks like this how do I actually learn piano I know it's probably a random one but I like piano no like it like don't just ask it basic questions like consult with it and give it information and prompt it and try to make sure it actually understands the full breadth of your challenge yeah give it context like the other day I wanted to learn how to make

00:40:48 - 00:41:45

a tomahawk better steak and instead of just saying make me a Tom how do I make a Tom Hawk sake I said I started off with like how do I make it but then I gave it more context to to in the sense of like this is how Jamie Oliver Cooks his Tom Hawk staks and this is how the other one the other Gord Ramsey cies this is how he does it so you feed it with context and then what what end UPS happening is that it it it starts to like yeah you in this instance you you've just given it more Direction and the more direction that

00:41:17 - 00:42:12

you give it it can come out with some powerful things so recently more practical inside a real we're doing a product release for a new idea how was the tomahawk by the way it was good 500 G I got to learn how to do it for a kilo it will it'll change the whole thing but that's a that's for next week what we did was there's this Jeet there's this idea called The Jeff Bezos pre-release right so when you're building a new product the idea of this is that you before you actually build anything or a

00:41:45 - 00:42:43

new feature you do a press release what is this feature going to actually do and when we're going down this new path for new features that we want to build we do the Jeff Bezos press release to then identify introducing this new product by RM it does this this this this and this but we fed it with a Jeff Bezos pre-release we told it about that and then that's what helped it create an awesome pre-release for our products that we're looking to build in the future so more I guess yeah in short

00:42:14 - 00:43:05

more context you give it the more it opens up and the more golden nuggets you can get yeah it's almost like give it the circumstances that you're in the timelines the you know maybe the boundaries of the things you can't do and then like some source matal like hey these are some other things I've seen I want to kind of duplicate this this is my circumstances the tools I have access to the things I can't do and then it really customizes something for you yeah I think it's really interesting that

00:42:39 - 00:43:39

that humanity is at an era where where this is happening what what's your personal opinion and relationship and and how what's your perspective on AI as a whole generally speaking I think it needs to be embraced I think it could take away a lot of the mundane things that you don't want to do in life and also help give you or Surface up better we use Google as a search engine now and I think that's soon going to become crazy to think an old way to again the tomahawk example it took me forever to

00:43:09 - 00:44:10

find it specifically about what I was looking for because my one weighed 550 grams and it was very specific right so I feel like a lot of these mundane repetitive tasks I think people should start to embrace it and just see how they can coorporate in their life it's it's crazy you can regardless of any level from being Tech person working in sales working as a plumber working as a teacher it can and will be able to take away a lot of those small things or just helping you write an email better but

00:43:40 - 00:44:30

yeah I feel like AI should be embraced to help you supercharge and take away a lot of the small tasks to allow you to focus on other things and just build out these AI assistance that allow you to focus on leveling up whatever you're doing focusing up on leveling up on other activities so it takes away the B Bine acts as like your super assistant and then unlocks opportunities for you to work on other things to expand your business expand your career whatever whatever it is but it just needs to be

00:44:05 - 00:44:56

embraced I wouldn't like it's not going I it's not [ __ ] it's not going I think it's clear it's not going anywhere for sure and and you make a good point there around how it can be kind of seen as like a super and in our general manager's case it's like a super assistant on how to build the world's best proposal document and we're freaking excited about it so for you you have this really cool quote and it's what you start off with is not always where you end up as and for you how do

00:44:31 - 00:45:27

you sustain your momentum and your motivation as an entrepreneur I think you just embrace the embrace the that whole that whole journey and that whole process I feel like what I what I love doing personally is just not getting too caught up in the best parts and not getting too caught up in the low parts and just always trying to stay in that middle it's hard but I do want to when we double revenue or double this I do want to get so exced decided but then I also know there could be a month where

00:44:59 - 00:46:03

you make no revenue or growth in 3 months so like d is just an example right of just trying to always stay in that midd I feel like it's it's a marathon for me that's why I love doing like these sport challenges or anything like that because those things help teach your mind that these entrepreneurial Pursuits are all so longterm and you don't know like I started at 20 I'm 33 now 13 years yeah it's like we're in the golden golden era man for sure where I don't think even

00:45:31 - 00:46:32

the money I've ever earned is probably equals to $5 an hour accumulatively over 13 years so like it's the thing is that the the point is that is it is such a it's a marathon so I feel like in a marathon you don't just Sprint or you you don't walk because if you do walk you like the lactic acid will build up and you'll just collapse so keeping a constant pace is is the key so that's how I try to like to approach it in whatever I do whether not real is going to scale and become 100x successful next

00:46:01 - 00:47:07

week just still like to stay as neutral as I can because I it just helps me stay in a positive State cuz yeah you can get caught up in emotions so badly like emotions can if you let it take it if you let it consume you it can you can sink you can and there are some rabbit holes that you can go down you don't want to go down so I think yeah that that allows you yeah look I think training helps stay there that probably is the main thing to be honest just staying fit helps you maintain that equilibrium of staying in the middle and

00:46:34 - 00:47:22

and I like the concept of staying in the middle not getting too attached to the L's or too attached to the W's and I've done this in the past where I get a couple WS under my belt my ego gets huge and I start having to walk through room sideways cuz my head gets too what I mean and then that always bites you in the ass and then if you attach to the L's you can get caught in a funk you're like nothing ever goes my way and you can become a victim do you have any tools to just keep you regulated and I

00:46:59 - 00:47:52

know you mentioned one of them is training is there anything else that you use to kind of keep you mentally level I think training is number one yeah like if you're not doing some sort of physical activity whether not it's walking or bike riding or gym whatever it is just physical activity I think you know I've been sick probably like sometimes for 5 days or something and I'm just feel like the worst human ever it's because I've done no training so that is number one period everything

00:47:25 - 00:48:26

else if you don't start there then everything else is irrelevant and I think another another good hack is is is reading and podcasts I think not getting too consumed about the content that's actually like you listening to me not getting too consumed about the actual content in the podcast but using it as a means to reflect so when what what I love is doing a podcast listening to it but allows me to reflect on other things that I like it's Sparks ideas that I want to think about myself so I do that

00:47:55 - 00:48:52

by walking or bike riding think that that's been my biggest savior to be honest of of of keeping the sanity long walks long bike rides listening to a podcast is yeah just a way to sort of like switch off and just kind of allow yourself to think think deep but yeah not to don't get caught up in the in the small things you just go for a long run and come back a new person I like that concept and I have a theory and I call it idea Cocktails so I I saw this theory that like it's good to read multiple

00:48:24 - 00:49:13

books at once which usually scares the [ __ ] out of people cuz they're like I got to finish this one book before I read the next one I get it but I I did this thing for for a couple months recently where it's like in the morning I'll read something crazy like I'll read like meditations by Marcus aurelus like really mindbending [ __ ] and then around lunch you just pick up like a quick action tip book which is like try these tips and techniques and then at night I'll listen to like or or read a

00:48:48 - 00:49:38

biography yeah and what happens is you start to see like these ideas kind of mixed together so rather than just drinking straight vodka you're kind of like making this like weird IDE coil and then you mix that with your day-to-day business and then it ends up with like you start looking at things from a very interesting perspective and and I like what you said there about like going for a bike ride listening to a pod but not listening to it for advice but trying to reflect on what you're doing yeah it's

00:49:13 - 00:50:05

Sparks you it it puts you into this relaxed state it puts you into a pensive State and allows you to think of your own things it it's crazy it happens with reading as well so I read not to obviously I I take some of it but I read because it puts me in in the this relaxed state allows me to go think about my things and I think they're they're the best mediums to for for ideas is that what they call like Theta State I don't fully understand it but yeah I think so there's got to be like

00:49:39 - 00:50:32

thereat there's some scientific thre but I just know it works again naive it works for me was there was there ever a moment throughout your journey that you thought like this is going to fail like something's gone wrong and you're like I don't know how this is going to I guess correct itself oh [ __ ] yeah like like probably countless number of times I've should have blown up and not been here so I said to you guys before like the fact that I'm just here and I'm not homeless is an achievement and I have

00:50:05 - 00:51:09

some money no I I think there's been so many times where things nearly blown up something recently was like close to not existing uh when before I was saying when I was talking with Adam saying I'm out you know this agency stuff sucks I'm not doing this anymore and that was 3 or 4 months in where I was like I'm going to go do something else now and until he pushed ahead with redesigning the website and launching it that kind of changed our trajectory so that was close time where we nearly where I nearly

00:50:37 - 00:51:32

pulled the pen but there's been so yeah is countless but again a lot of these things have just been just belts like notches to add to the Belt to sort of like continue on that Journey when when these things happen do you do you tend to like you know reframe them in a certain way or or like do you always try to find suck a lesson out of it yeah that's the main thing like you you you try to extract as hard as it is like you always try to extract some sort of learning from that so whether or not

00:51:05 - 00:51:55

like hire better get a better problem find out like work on a better problem that has a bigger Market opportunity like these small things everything that I've kind of done along the way I've just sort of built out my principle it's like a ra I don't know if you've read The Raid Delo principles but it's a brilliant book it's awesome book right but how he kind of frames principles I feel I feel like that's to me is what you do derive from your experiences so the for me I've always created these

00:51:30 - 00:52:25

principles along the way which are forever evolving cuz like I'm going to learn something a real I'm going to stuff up something I know I will I have probably stuffed up a few things already but I'm going to learn and that's going to again get entered into my personal principles but for Dan which then evolve over time I iterate them and I think that if I can have more experiences that builds up my principle book and that just makes me a makes me make better decisions more frequently do do you feel

00:51:57 - 00:52:52

like this decision making and what you were just saying there about like having your principles helps you somewhat build like a bit of a gut instinct yeah yeah how how much of your decision- making do you feel comes from gut instinct or do you predominantly try to be a bit more logical and go back to your principles well I think the the principles kind of frames that gut gut instinct right so they they're not built on anything I guess that is loog oh there's some logic to it yeah but yeah it's an interesting

00:52:24 - 00:53:26

one for me I feel like the principles help inform that gut instinct and I think I make a lot of decisions based off my gut instinct and I I also use this other framework of just always capping our downside so I think it's something I read with the SIM Talib that I love that I've taken to like my heart and applied to everything personal and business is just that every every approach or everything every decision I make is based off that framework of I will cap my downside and have an infinite upside so what do you mean by

00:52:56 - 00:53:52

capping your downside so in a scenario let's say again like when we wanted to build relim Library as a product and yeah and and go down that path so for me how I frame that was like with Adam saying all right cool well this is this is this is an opportunity for us to have an infinite upside because of the fact that we can sell subscriptions and you can get a th000 people that pay you and then you could get 2,000 the next day right there's an infinite upside to building a sub subscription based business but the

00:53:24 - 00:54:23

downside how do we cap this right so how do we build like we don't do want to bet the house because the worst thing you do as an entrepreneur is wipe yourself out because you are the sole function of how you generate ideas if you wipe you out you are done so don't wipe yourself out so that's what the cap in the downside theory is which essentially is like cool in this scenario with the real Library we said if this fails the downside is effectively turn it free and make a [ __ ] ton of agency Revenue because we get in

00:53:53 - 00:54:43

a lot of leads so I was able to say all right cool let's do it let's make this bet because we now we've kind of like put in in our in our mind of like this is a pretty good downside and this is a unlimited upside which not been obviously a great upside so but I was very confident in that bet because the downside was capped I wasn't going to get wiped out I just don't want to be wiped out because that just ruins everything so it's kind of like having a contingency plan where it's like if

00:54:19 - 00:55:10

something goes wrong we got a backup plan yeah it's a way like people probably like some entrepreneurs hate the word like oh you've got a backup plan like just go in for all that but like sure you can do that and then I exist here 13 years later is because I've done that I haven't been killed off yet so but you want to sack the deck in your favor and in in this initial bet you're like obviously every bet has risk but you were like hey the upside here is huge yeah and worst case scenario we go

00:54:44 - 00:55:42

free yeah and both cases we we make money we yeah and if you do that and you make those decisions can like continuously and always have that you if you increase those decisions of in your Peri perod of time whatever you're doing you're increasing the odds of hitting that that that exponential moment so I always want to do as many of these decisions I can so we can always put ourselves in that position to have that upside when when it does uh come around and and when you say exponential moment

00:55:13 - 00:56:12

like what might that look like for you so for example was the bet we took on going from reloom as a component copy and paste business to a AI site Builder Okay so for us we thought to ourselves again there's the upside here if we build a platform we significantly change the trajectory of our company what is the downside here and we capped our downside at a two-month bet of engineering so we thought to ourselves two-month bet of engineering let's say the engineer is 10 grand a month that's

00:55:42 - 00:56:27

a 20 grand bet not a not a bad downside right I've capped it at 20K in terms of and by cap you mean like there's a price limit there's a work limit and we know what it is yeah we're going to work on this for two months and those two months is going to equal salary probably could chuck in my salary items and that's like let's say it's a it's going to be 100 Grand bet let's say we had a million in the bank so it's not going to kill us so if I'm going to take a 100 Grand bet on

00:56:05 - 00:56:55

building this site Builder tool but the upside of that site Builder tool could be Millions what are you doing do it and do these decisions all the time always think about these in your businesses like what are the bets I can make that has a cap downside but I could unlock a whole new world because we had that opportunity when we're doing the site Builder to like build a Plugin or just build an extension of web flow like we could have took a smaller increment and a smaller little bet but I still

00:56:30 - 00:57:19

remember the cost of that bet was relatively the same so we thought to ourselves all right cool if the cost of the bet is relative the same let's go for that bigger one let's go for that thing that allows us to have a bigger upside so again if you have that framework we could know that the ca downside was always going to be 100K and we knew the upside could be infinite we chose build our own platform so it it happens all the time I'm always doing it and there's probably going to be another

00:56:54 - 00:57:49

10 of them that I want to be making the next couple of months of increasing the odds because again if I stuff it up doesn't matter it's just I've just for us for for a startup now our biggest downside is is is cash that we spend which is people on the wrong thing so I got to make sure that we cap that and we don't want to be blowing out three four six months of of development into something that doesn't have a infinite upside absolutely and and I understand that and I want to come back to the gut

00:57:22 - 00:58:24

thing because I think this is really interesting the principles and the gut before we we dive back into that that I understand recently you were offered 35 million to be acquired and integrated with a larger company take me through that moment like what what what happened how did you feel and and and what was really the repercussion for your psyche when that happened yeah the I think what it what it does if you if everyone if anyone gets an off like that I think what it it really shapes up your

00:57:52 - 00:58:48

conviction it really makes you fully understand what you're doing the trajectory of what you're doing and the confidence in what you're doing so it was really cool obviously one again same same idea of like seeing my t-shirt on the beach but having someone give you an offer is an incredible sign of validation from an external source to say what you're doing is good it's validated there's a objective way to measure your your impact which is such a cool do you want 35 million yeah it's a

00:58:20 - 00:59:20

huge objective measure of value to to make you feel like [ __ ] like we what we have done is has some value to us not just in our heads that's a lot of money man yeah it is it's a lot it is it's talking about like I'm happy that I'm not homeless and now there's like hey you want 35 million yeah look I think yeah it would not make me homeless I'd have a nice home somewhere but I think it it it sharpens up your your your decision making process of like where where where do we see this in 6 months

00:58:51 - 00:59:43

to a year and I think it helped force that upon us pretty early and again what's really cool part is that we sort of thought to ourselves Adam Slater and myself the opportunity that we have here is is big and I think if this is what we're getting off at now imagine if we make good decisions based off downside and infinite upside imagine if we keep doing over time for next year who knows where we would be next year and I think I think that was the most intriguing like exciting part for us sort of to

00:59:17 - 01:00:10

continue on we thought it just a little bit too early but we also thought to ourselves hey let's see what it's like to manage a team 20 people or 30 50 let's go there let's let's get that rep in let's let's see what it's like to experience that firsthand so we can actually know that we did it CU it's very rare to have a company that does this and then scales like this to then have that opportunity so we thought we could never probably not never but there's a l there's a probability he

00:59:44 - 01:00:37

couldn't do it again so let's at least learn how to run a team and grow a team and see who we are after that what do we like after that and sorry and yeah that's what that was one of the I guess yeah one of the kind of strong reasons why we decided to press on and keep doing what we're doing how did you feel in that exact moment oh it was I still remember the yeah no it's like [ __ ] like is it's like it's weird it's weird because you're backing a lot on you you

01:00:10 - 01:01:01

you're now kind of like telling yourself all right you're doing this I remember like if we're doing this like this is we're going hard and taking this to another level so we make this decision there's no turning well not really no turning back obviously could make another offer but yeah it it does really put not say pressure but it makes you like want to really work hard and increase a value even more over time and I think it's an exciting thing did you feel do you feel like it gave you

01:00:35 - 01:01:28

Clarity yeah it gave you Clarity it gave you it gave us a strong sense of like this is the right direction what you're doing is the right path so keep doing what you're doing so yeah confidence goes up right and again but I don't want to take that to and take take that to my head and think I'm a superstar because that will [ __ ] me in the long run so I kind of want to just again take that as an opportunity of like this is great do what we're doing is good let's just keep

01:01:01 - 01:01:54

focusing forging ahead and yeah don't look back and so so when this happened like was what was your gut saying to you and what was your head saying to you I think yeah there's The Logical is take it like you set yourself between all three of us that's pretty decent money to sort of not probably work I don't think you do it for not working it's just really it sets yourself up like it's pretty generational it's not that gener it's good money so your head sort of says yeah take it which is this is

01:01:29 - 01:02:20

the conflicting part but your gut says no damn we could turn this into a freaking billion dollar company what are you doing you idiot so like it's that that's that's the two things in your head that kind of like play against each other so yeah sometimes you shouldn't listen to your head yeah Tony Tony Robin says if you're in your head you're dead yeah because you can overthink things and you get caught up in the weeds and it's like your mind is gun you need to Tender it now back to principles what

01:01:54 - 01:02:52

are some of the principles that you've formed in your mind logically that you try to adhere to I think this one is always like pushed to push towards the best version of Dan like so will this trajectory or this path get the best version out of Dan and I always like to frame that in my head of okay if I take this path would this get the best version of me or if I do this path would this get the best version of me and that's my life Pursuit I just want to be the bestest ever version I've could ever

01:02:23 - 01:03:14

be when I'm dead so will this path get the best version of me probably not and that's that's that's pretty it's weird that that's where like it actually becomes rational so if we do sell I think there's a lower chance that I would have I say work hard I'm always going to work hard but there's a lower chance I would have learned more things right probably no longer taking care of payroll I'm no longer having that pressure of Revenue versus cost and growth and all that type of stuff so

01:02:49 - 01:03:46

there's that and then if I took path B which is continue on yeah [ __ ] that will get the best version of Dan he's got to learn how grow team hire hire good people retain retain these people motivate these people so that option got the best like it might be more punishing but it might be more difficult but it will get a better version so that's a principle to me like get always focus on doing activities get the best version of you and I think that leads to the best decisions in all scenarios because it it

01:03:17 - 01:04:11

negates the whole diff oh this is too hard or this is the difficult it kind of like nullifies that as a as a as a way of making a decision so I think that saved me or that helped me make that decision a lot clearer I like what you said there like it definitely nullifies the excuses and it's like that voice in your head that's like well what if this goes wrong what if this doesn't work and what happens if this blows up in your face and what happens if you're like man I wish I took the 35 you know that all

01:03:44 - 01:04:34

just gets muted when you're like that's not the best version of me though yeah 100% And what's crazy Dan is like probably two or 3 months after it I genuinely have not even thought about it honestly and that's not what to say yeah I actually genuinely have never like ever looked back and thought about like let's go back to that let's go back to that or even thought about oh let's just exit now like ended up being a a good decision in my opinion time will tell but I think it's been a great

01:04:09 - 01:04:56

decision only not not using the objective measure only purely off the fact that I have had to become a better version of me I've got more people that I need to motivate more people I need to have in our team and also just more decision I need to make from a product strategy point of view has extracted a better version of me I love that I've Lov that I've had to do that so it's already been a win regardless of the outcome yeah it's been like a gift even though like no Money's been exchanged

01:04:33 - 01:05:18

it's like that external pressure has being like holy [ __ ] this is giving me Clarity I feel like it's validated what we're doing let's go harder it's kind of like you know if there are like a competitor and they're like hoping to like slow you down and buy you out it's almost like gotten given the opposite effect which is which is kind of humorous is there any other driving principles that you carry with yourself besides the one where it's like is this the best version of me let's pick that

01:04:55 - 01:05:55

route yeah I think the other one that I took from it is that just for me it it it it helped sort of like identify staying true to yourself so and it sounds fluffy and vague but what what really helped bubble up to me is like oh wow like I do want to make [ __ ] money I think it's like in the end of the day we all want to make cash but the it it helped form the for me hey like oh great like you're not just a guy who just wants to do cash grab you're not just a cash grab entrepreneur that's that's

01:05:25 - 01:06:22

interesting right Dan like you didn't cuz I didn't know I've never had that money sort of presented to me in a way that would sort of say oh blinding lights let's take it and I'll piss off so it was really cool to sort of see at that time that like oh no like I'm building something cuz I love it like I actually love what I'm doing from a real in regards to real this is a this is like the ultimate job so I think staying true to your self like I don't know how to explain that one but I think yeah

01:05:53 - 01:06:52

identifying what your what what your true passion is I think is something that was really kind of like really kind of raised up rised up for me in terms of this whole experience is that I was able to see the true identity of what I'm actually doing and that's that's pretty cool like I I I I love building real as a company I freaking love this I [ __ ] love it so much like love it I'm obsessed I cannot stop thinking about this even probably on this podcast of what I could be doing right now I love

01:06:23 - 01:07:14

it like it's my child and I just want to feel like that if I'm not working on it every day I'd be so depressed so yeah it's really cool to see oh wow this is this is what I'm meant to do and I think yeah I think by staying true to yourself consistently ignoring people about their opinions of doing this do that that's the right way and just staying true to yourself helps you get closer to your true self and what your your identity of like what your passion is what you love

01:06:48 - 01:07:30

doing and and I can feel it man like you [ __ ] love like you're you're obsessed with it and it's the same for me like when I when I get home all I want to do is talk about what's happening here and on the weekend I'm like what am I going to do next week and it's and and it's it's weird cuz like I I sometimes say some stuff like I don't care about the money but then I'm like I kind of do like cuz I want to have the commercial success and I want to do the rad [ __ ]

01:07:10 - 01:08:07

with my family in the future and own property and travel the world and all the rest of it but it's like yeah for me it's like I've clicked into a gear and I'm like this is my thing yeah and you found your thing how how like when you found it and what was that moment for you Obsession in in the sense of like if you take me two hours out to do this it has to be good enough for me to take me out of of what I'm doing with real so I think that you you constantly trade time in your head to know oh but if I'm doing

01:07:38 - 01:08:35

this is going to take me away from doing this so I feel like when you have but when you feel the pain of not being on it and working on it I feel like my biggest kind of it's crazy you know people live for a weekend but my biggest like I guess pain point is the weekend cuz I'm just a little bit as to like what I'm doing so if I'm not doing my weekend for the week yeah it's like give me Monday hurry up at least it's two days and off yeah public holiday don't remind me of that one that's going to

01:08:06 - 01:08:53

freak me out but yeah it's just that so I feel like yeah when when you're not thinking about the time you invested into something that's you you're working on something that you truly like yeah and and I say this all the time there's two types of entrepreneurs there's the one what you talked about which is they they sign a company to make money and sell out and that to me is pretty like boring and and like I could think of anything further from like in my mind boring right and then the second type of

01:08:30 - 01:09:20

entrepreneur is like the type of person who's like I really want to figure this [ __ ] thing at drives me nuts keeps me up at night and I want to be the guy or the gal that gets it done for you what is that problem or the Crux or the thing that you're chasing right now I just I think there's a better way to build a marketing website I don't know why it say like that's why I I had so many different experiences growing up of building marketing websites myself being a freelancer just like playing around

01:08:55 - 01:09:56

with marketing websites and I think that we have this really cool opportunity to build the best experience of of of a marketing website from zero to one so yeah that's it's yeah for anyone out there like your obsession could be as strange and weird as it is but it's it's yours like so so for me it's yeah building the best marketing websites on the planet I want to build a platform that does that and I think that yeah you got to find that Niche and just and just go with it it's it's yours and then

01:09:25 - 01:10:20

coming back to gut like in your gut it sounds like you've really kind of constructed a gauge and because I look at gut feeling as like an amalgamation of experiences you know lessons learnings challenges moments of overcoming and achieving things it's like you're collecting all these receipts and kind of stacking it into a gut feel for you do you feel like your gut and and being led by your gut at this point in time is is the best thing to do yeah it's the only thing I've got

01:09:53 - 01:10:40

really like it it cuz it is like you said it's it's it's it's the accumulation of all my experiences so if I don't leverage them properly then I've just wasted all that time and and and energy and effort obviously I want to take the best parts I'm not going to take the parts where I stuffed up but yeah I think the gut does that it pulls out all the good parts that you've experienced in your previous and I think it's such a shame if you don't lean into that so that's why I think advisors are

01:10:16 - 01:11:05

great or getting investors or whatever in your business but just don't underestimate your gut your gut is is the reason why you've achieved what you achiev it's the reason why you're here today and it's probably going to be the reason why you continue to do the things that you do so it's it's it's a powerful element it's it's hard to describe exactly how it function and works but you'll know when you'll you'll know when it does present itself and what's your

01:10:40 - 01:11:32

advice to someone who's got is screaming at them right now and their head is saying but I'm scared oh wow I think for me it's just just just you you have time you have so much time don't like don't you don't have to bet the house on it so if you're scared and you have an idea and you're working whatever you're doing as a job and there's something that you feel like you got saying do it do it do it and only you will know that cuz you look in the mirror and it keeps [ __ ]

01:11:06 - 01:12:00

telling you it's like do it now do it now it just keeps repeating at your face your like I'm scared yeah it's like no I can't so I think fine sure have that fear but I think you can eliminate that by just getting things done and and and working towards that goal incrementally just break it down into the most micro baby little steps that you can possibly do within the time frame that you have available to you and I would guarantee you these things compound so if you do have only 4 hours a week then break down

01:11:33 - 01:12:25

your bet or your ID into how you can achieve that within four hours a week but what happens it's magic is this compounding effect happens so when you do 4 hours consistently for 4 weeks straight what ends up happening he's like ah the momentum kicks in you're like I [ __ ] love this I'm I'm going to Chuck in another like screw this thing that I was going out to on a Saturday I'm going out and do another 4 hours so I've just injected another 4 hours now it's 8 hours a week so the

01:11:58 - 01:12:44

momentum part really helps spur on more time that you invest in it but you got to start small start incrementally don't like say I want to have this idea I quit my job and now I did it and then all a sudden there's all this pressure and you just again you've you've just blown yourself out you haven't kept your downside right so cap your downside stay where you are from a job perspective but get momentum and get reps in and start to understand if this thing is going to work by just doing it and working on it

01:12:22 - 01:13:20

and I think that always happens it's the only way like if I've ever been out of the gym or been injured the only way I can get back into that gym is by going one time a week and then the next week I start telling myself now you can do two so I do two and then the next week I go three and by before I know momentum has just kicked in I'm not even thinking about I'm going back to five six days a week so if you just do spite bite size increments I guarantee you whatever you have desire like whatever thing you have

01:12:51 - 01:13:40

in your head will come to life but You' got to be persistent you got to do it in a way that's attainable so if it's only 2 hours a week if you can do that for 4 weeks just do whatever is attainable and you'll get it I think that's amazing Sound Advice just pick the lowest common denominator activity and just start there and I remember I used to sell gym memberships and I had this beautiful lady I can't remember her name and she was sitting across from the table me giving her a tour of the gym and she's

01:13:16 - 01:14:01

like I'm really scared to like sign up to the gym there's a lot of intimidating people here and I'm like look I get it but like let's just start off with like the most basic activity let's sign you up and she's like what's the the activity I'm like literally go buy a pair of nice runners go buy your outfit do you have do you have a a workout attire she's like no I'm like just now this afternoon go to Kmart like Lululemon wherever just buy an outfit and buy a bag and pack your bag and

01:13:38 - 01:14:26

she's like I can do that and I was like just out there and then Monday morning I'll meet you here and you can drive here we'll have a coffee we'll talk again you don't even have to do a workout you can go home and she all right I can do that just like let's make it really simple and she came in and we sat down we had a coffee and she's like still nervous I'm like that's fine like come back next Monday and then I'll I'll show you a couple machines and it's just

01:14:02 - 01:14:54

baby steps man love it sometimes we just get a baby step our way into success it honestly is but I think the thing people hate about or don't like about baby steps it's too slow it's like the slow momentum but it it's training your brain to just be consistent and consistency really is what gets you know day I'm not any smart than anyone I'm not a genius I'm not by any means got some super education that gives me an ADV anes it's just I'm just being stupidly persistent

01:14:28 - 01:15:20

stupidly like it's just ridiculously persistent and that has nothing to do with intelligence it's just sticking to it and knowing and and and and chipping away as much as I can every day and obviously like that that compounds over time and it gets you to where you want to get in the long run I agree with that wholeheartedly man and it it reminds me of like the Navy Seals like tagline or slogan and it's like slow as smooth and smooth as fast yeah I want to take that well the Navy has it we can we can use

01:14:54 - 01:15:43

it right but I think it's like sometimes we just get to slow down and just like take and that's better than coming up with a master plan or like trying to theorize like where's the best place to start and how do we completely mitigate risk it's just like just [ __ ] start and pick a thing just do it you know just have that beginner's mindset and that will open up opportunities cuz there's no reason why I should have done anything because I have not got the it's not like I had a mentor who was in tech

01:15:18 - 01:16:10

or in fashion or whatever it is I didn't I just did it and I learned and the brain is incredible it does it it learns in ways where you never thought was possible when you under say pressure but when you got to get something done your brain will earn it'll switch on 100% you've shared a lot about your story and kind of how this whole thing came together and you've mentioned a few times your team and I always like to understand the Dynamics of people's team and like who's around them and kind of

01:15:43 - 01:16:40

who's like their their closest allies behind the scenes and I understand for you you have a co-founder and that I believe it's really enriched your entrepreneurial in Journey yeah for sure Adam and we've been together for like 10 years working in both Phoenix lumio and then and then now reum we've got that connection and it's almost like that for our rugby league fans out there it's like Billy Slater and Cameron Smith where they they didn't necessarily have to talk but they knew what they were

01:16:13 - 01:17:11

doing they could anticipate the next play and I think that only comes with time right so we've been lucky enough and privileged to have spent so much time together which I think is this like unlocks so much things that and advantages that we've got new new new founded or new co-founders who just met at a program don't have so I think that's that's one thing yeah privilege obviously I met Adam through my sister he went to school with my sister so half luck half opportunity seiz and I think

01:16:42 - 01:17:42

it's that's been one of the best things and obviously then having Slater as well join on pretty early on in in the mix so he came on as soon as we launched real library and I so he's almost come on like a third co-founder and I think again time spent and the more we we know for us the more time we spend with each other invest really hard in that relationship the better the outcomes of the entire business to be honest so I think that's probably been one of our one to me the most important thing at

01:17:11 - 01:18:14

his whole operation is the Dynamics between us three because that's what's allows us to make good decisions and and help take hopefully make good decisions for for everyone working at REO and what what specific strengths or skills do you believe that Adam and Slater bring to the table that complement your own yeah yeah I think probably the wildest when it comes to I guess risk but then it's interesting in different scenarios they are more wild in risk and I'm more risk averse so I think what we

01:17:42 - 01:18:39

we do really well is that we all have a we all have a different balance of of risk appetite in whatever opportunity strategy product feature whatever it is so I think we we balance each other really well Adam obviously has probably one of the best product design or design thinking mind that I know and Slater from an engineering perspective like the ability for him to understand that machine it takes a pretty special person so both of them obviously have a really great understanding of of their fields

01:18:11 - 01:19:00

um in design and engineering and then I think for myself it's more from a commercialization and operations and and and Leadership so I think that is the the Holy Trinity in my opinion if you're going to start a startup you want to have someone who's got a commercial background like wants to just drive and push and make [ __ ] happen someone who has got a great design thinking mind and someone who's got a great engineering for Tech obviously there's different fields but for Tech specifically I think

01:18:36 - 01:19:27

that's the ultimate stack obviously some of them can come with two like there could be a myself who's also an engineer but we call them unicorns they're Zuckerberg you do find a Zuckerberg latch onto him but yeah it's I think that having those three things covered in a tech startup is is is is a good way to improve probabilities of su of success and that sense for sure like having different fields covered and everyone's kind of taking care of different sectors of the business

01:19:01 - 01:19:59

totally sound totally makes sense what do you think is the substance between you three as a relationship that makes someone a good co-founder and if someone's listening to this and they're like I'm considering having a co-founder like what are what are the things that they should probably have in order to thrive for 10 plus years yeah it's it's like almost a sibling type feedback where I don't know if you have a brother or sister you can be I do yeah I got a little brother yeah so you can be pretty

01:19:30 - 01:20:18

brutally honest personally I can with my brother I can be brutally honest and they're cool with it yeah they do it back and you still love each other it's a different relationship right with with your siblings you can say you're an idiot and you can still talk to them in another 30 seconds after and be best friends almost like an alternative language yeah it's it's it's that relation it's almost like a sibling Dynamic so reason being is that you can be really honest and give direct

01:19:54 - 01:20:43

feedback without knowing that Slayer Adam is going to feel so upset for the whole day and he's going to be get away Dan I'm not talking to you for 2 days cuz you you yelled at me or whatever it's that having that really direct and open dialogue between each other just that's but that's that's a given and that comes with time because you need to build trust over time and I think that's that's hard to you can't force that until you get time so for anyone looking

01:20:19 - 01:21:14

for a co-founder I think it's just a matter of like you're going to spend so much time with this person more than my wife so you got to be patient but also just try to also manufacture I do like try to manufacture as many experiences together try to be in the war room together as much as you can because that's when you really test pressure test each other's sort of gauge like someone you could meet let's say as a like a co-founder like oh I want to start a company okay D let start a

01:20:46 - 01:21:39

company like but who the [ __ ] what does it what happens [ __ ] hits the fan and we're 10K in the red the shit's about to blow up what do you like under pressure so I think time reveals everything so it's hard to manufacture though that time but I think if you do know someone and you are working with someone the early you start together improves the relationship and that is what allows you to build good companies when you when you have that direct relationship with each other and also being through the

01:21:13 - 01:21:59

walls together or being through the trenches and that's really a great perspective is is that ciling dynamic because I I agree with you and I have it with some of my team members here where we can be really ourselves with each other and the next day it's like reset it's like whatever happened yesterday is yesterday let's move on like and and it's great cuz you can just know that that person has your back they're not going to stab you they're going to hold a grudge it's not going to get weird

01:21:36 - 01:22:29

turn into some like alternative like disdain for that person or whatever how do you although like I'm sure there's moments where there is a robust conversation and there is friction and there is debates how do you navigate the differences in opinions or approaches with your with your co-founder I think there's you you you got to respectful I think the end of the day I can say you're an idiot what you did was freaking stupid you're a spasy or I could be like hey Dan what you did there

01:22:03 - 01:22:53

I don't think it was really good for the business I think it really [ __ ] us in a way that we probably want don't want to do it again so I think delivery I've had to personally learn that Adam and I were really bad in the early days like we would just literally were like brothers just yelling at each other and we ended up didn't get a better outcome so I think I've had to really focus on yes you can be as direct but just delivery because you actually end up getting a better outcome in in in in the

01:22:28 - 01:23:16

end anyway so I think that that's something that takes a little bit like just take a breath and then deliver so that's a bit of training in the back of your mind but I think that's that's the most important thing to get your message across and also just yeah just take your time to sort of listen I've always jumped and said so you're saying something then I'll just jump you straight away so I think that taking that time to just go again breathe in and just let them have the two minutes

01:22:52 - 01:23:45

of of reasoning as to why they've thought this way you said that you want to do this but why what's the real kind of underlying and it takes a lot of freaking time but it does end up getting the better outcomes like me even though I'm like what you think is so stupid but I'm like no I'm going to ask why I'm going to go deeper I'm go okay so you think that but why and then why and why so like you just break down the layers and again that helps understand a lot of the the sort of breaks down that barrier

01:23:18 - 01:24:12

of of what why someone is thinking that way but also most importantly delivering your feedback in a respectful constructive way can still give that it can still give what you originally wanted without having to yell I think that's a great approach and and we often times work with a lot of like co-founders that run Brands and we're taking them through their brand strategy together and you can tell there's tension in the room because there's two or three of them that want to take the

01:23:45 - 01:24:29

brand in three different directions and one of the rules we have in a workshop is like no judgment like just let that person have their peace and you can think about it it's stupid you could go red in the face you could be like punching your fece but just let them have their moment and then you'll have your moment and then the third co-founder will have their moment and then all the cards are on the table now we understand everyone's opinion then it's like almost weirdly like the

01:24:07 - 01:25:02

strategy reveals itself organically or it's like is there a fourth I mean and it's really quite cathartic and therapeutic but when you can actually just let people have their moment like it's so helpful yeah and you can totally just like actually listen to them and then have a better way of constructing your feedback rather than jump in and like arguing 100% but that takes it's it's almost Tak Poise it's not easy takes patience um with with everything you're building man this you got an immense

01:24:35 - 01:25:35

amount of passion you're extremely curious and I I just love how much you're all in on this idea but when it's all said and done how do you want to be remembered just a guy if you worked with him he was incredibly motivating and you just felt inspired to work with him like you got to kick out of being out of his presence you someone who yeah motivated but also again come back to my principal I I actually became a better version of myself so I yeah that's how I want to be kind of remembered for I think that

01:25:05 - 01:25:54

would be awesome if I were to leave that as a as a mark on the people that I've work work with right now I think if that's what I can pass on I think that I've done my job so yeah I just always love to sort of motivate and lead and get the best version out of the team because end of the day that's that's all you should be doing if you're not getting the best version out of yourself and whatever company you're working at or for yourself in your own startup just do don't like switch I agree with that

01:25:30 - 01:26:14

and it's like when you're finished with life like be finished yeah I want and not it's that I think is that there's this thing where you look back and you're you're old and you say oh what the things that you regreted most with the things you didn't do so I think that's always just something in the back of my mind like I could get hit by bus after this right I literally die at anym I'm always just it's it's something that I think it's a stoic principle where

01:25:52 - 01:26:44

they use death as a as a way to like motivate you always just don't overthink it like you you could literally be gone tomorrow so just do what you need to do today and and and yeah optimize for just doing what you want and doing what you love because I think that's what will neverly make you happiest right yeah I have a weird Mantra around death so whenever I do public speaking I play a mantra in my head and it's like nothing means anything soon you'll be dead anyway it sounds horrible but I I like I

01:26:18 - 01:27:08

get behind stage I get a little nerve-racked and get the Jitters I'm like that's to speak being an introvert I just get weird and I just play this mtro my head and I'm like yeah like like who cares and then I get on St get on stage and I crush it and I just it just gets rid of the nerves cuz I think nerves come up a lot in business and you just have to be like dude what is it it doesn't really matter anyway I'll be dead soon so like just give it your best it's it it's weirdly it it works and the

01:26:42 - 01:27:29

stoics wouldn't have ranted on about this as as a whole chapter I think I read about it where they all wrote about it because yeah they used it as a function to sort of just yeah be free it's all good I think realizing your mortality puts things in a perspective real quick cuz you're like yeah this doesn't matter much I could die as soon anyway yeah so it's a yeah it's interesting but it works it does so speaking of mantras what what's what's a quote or Mantra that you've carried with

01:27:06 - 01:28:08

you on your journey that you wished everyone listening to this would immediately Implement oh it's a good one I don't yeah people tease me to say it's not mine but I'm going to claim it's mine is how you do anything is how you do everything so I'm a big believer of if you're going run up that Hill do it the right like do it with intensity do it with a way that it's going to again exhaust you and and and and put you through the paces of why you did it so I think I love well I personally knowing

01:27:37 - 01:28:21

of who people I work with is is also and who my personal friends was like how they do anything is how they do everything so if they're going to slack off on something here what is it going to say what what's what's going to make me think that they're going to slack off when things get harder here so I use it as a measure to identify who who are people that I want to be around with true so it's a it's it's a pretty ruthless measure but oh look I'm a big believer and that if you look at

01:27:59 - 01:28:43

anything that I do I do it with purpose and I think it's allowed me to translate that into how I do everything so if you're going and just leave something on the bench and clean it up put it there make it happen just just yeah it's it's it's a it's a personal thing I know obviously doesn't apply to everyone but I'm a big believer of how how you do anything is how you do everything so it's a way to measure and gauge whether or not I want they're the type of people

01:28:21 - 01:29:11

I want to be around with I agree and like bring some intensity like don't run up that mountain like a [ __ ] run up that mountain like [ __ ] goggin would yeah yeah and if you don't want to do that mountain that's good but just don't do it Half Baked don't do it like [ __ ] half of but it's okay if you don't do it it's like just don't do it half baked cuz then yeah half asset whole asset yeah so it's it works it it's yeah if you're going to donuts for

01:28:45 - 01:29:43

breakfast then who are you going to like that's just not a Vibe or Persona that I want going to want to be around or associated with and when you wake up in the morning what's something that gets you fired up it could be an activity it could be anything what gets you pumped for the day I think um finishing like my first session I like to train mornings so I think that kind of gets me Jed up to sort of know I did the hard thing first so anything after that is a little bit more not going to be as hard so what

01:29:15 - 01:30:09

kind of training do you like Group Training you just hit the weights like what what do you do yeah it's a combination of that like it's like a I call it a lighter CrossFit style it's not CrossFit but it's just a variation of CrossFit so that keeps me just moving it's a group group class combination of weights and functional training but also just I like doing a lot of running so I just do like I was saying heel runs long runs just run it's just a sort of clear my mind so yeah but what gets me GED up

01:29:42 - 01:30:39

in the morning is just start off with that training session and that sets the it always sets a standard for today yeah what time do you train do you like try to get it in early I'll aim for about 7 6:30 wake up call try to go to bed like around 10:00 wake up 6:30 that's the ultimate sort of like when I had I had a kid that kind of threw things off yeah that'll do it but yeah she she was like oh you got a plan dad well I'm alive so I I become like a a vampire gym person where it's like I got to hit it later

01:30:10 - 01:31:04

the kids are in bed and the morning's tough cuz I I work in the US or with us clients and I got a four-year-old and one and a halfy old so it's like 11:00 p.m. training it's it works it put you to sleep better does it make you kind of or do you feel more GED up after I feel GED up and I'm like I could work until 3 I can get some stuff done I can ride a BL and it's a problem but I I started taking this supplement called adrenal switch it's really good and it's from a g a guy I know his name is Greg

01:30:37 - 01:31:24

Haggins shout out switch nutrition they're not sponsoring us but their products are are great and it turns off like your adrenal receptors or whatever the science is so when you're in the gym and you're firing like your adrenal glands and you're getting pumped up and wired it it kind of counteracts that without making you I guess drowsy or sleepy oh ni yeah and it comes in hot chocolate it's really [ __ ] good I've got some here I'll give it to you the final question I have for you man is

01:31:01 - 01:31:55

what's a door that you need to kick in right now to level up as an entrepreneur what are the type of doors you could be any kind of door higher more higher more I be more aggressive back yeah I think the nature of boot trapping a company is a different psyche so I just want to just hire more I think and that will that that'll get the best version of me if if you had to pick the first higher who do you think it would be more Engineers more Engineers yeah you just need to get more done quickly yeah we

01:31:28 - 01:32:17

have ambition we have a lot of things that we want to build and it always doesn't necessarily match who we've got not to say that who we've got is not good enough is that is that we've just got a lot to do so I think it's always just focusing on hiring more and that's not just Engineers it's also designers and and growth so yeah if I want to kick down that door which will take me to another level we just got to hire more and hopefully that translates into more impact for the product Tom will tell

01:31:53 - 01:32:44

well if there's any evidence that you're the guy that could do it I've seen it you're on your way you're saying no to $35 million offers and clearly you really love what you do man and it's been a a pleasure to unpack this today with you and really kind of crawl into your mind and kind of see how you you I guess shape your own perspective around Tech and where the future of technolog is going yeah thanks Dan appreciate the time appreciate you being here man thanks so much it's been good love to

01:32:18 - 01:33:15

get you back I love I love what we're talking about and it'd be really fun to dive some a bit deeper into some of this stuff it's good call me whenever I let's schedule an in man let's make it happen yo my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day so I branded myself then I started my agency rival and hir a team of branding Mavericks hellbent on creating brand so good that they'll make you a competition

01:32:56 - 01:33:54

their pants so here's the thing you want your brand to go viral and rival makes Brands go viral that's why we're offering you a free 30-minute branding session to get an expert's opinion if you don't believe me the proof is in the pudding here's what clients have to say about rival rival is trusted by Brands like nutrition Warehouse light my bricks and V so if you want to absolutely smoke the competition and make your brand go viral hit the link below and book in your free

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