An Athletes Mindset On Overcoming Life's Obstacles Personally & Professionally | Sera Naiqama

00:00:00 - 00:00:48

working in this space you know when someone is prepared and you know when someone isn't you know when someone's organized and when they're not you know when someone's speaking the truth or they just made it up on the spot like listen to what the commentator say I'm like that's a really articulate way to describe a play or to to raise a certain athletes ability and you you take note of it and have conversations while you're still an athlete if the world of media is somewhere that you do want to

00:00:24 - 00:01:28

get into because there can only ever be so many commentators Sarah welcome to the agency pod excited to have you and you do a lot you do a lot just to say just to just to put that out there and I think you know you have a podcast with the ABC you do commentating with Stan you're about to do commentary at the Olympics and you're an athlete and you play for international and state yeah yeah bit on there's certainly a bit on there was this intentional like how did you end up in this position

00:01:00 - 00:01:54

where you had this many plates to spin honestly I have no idea how I've ended up here this is not the life that I envisioned for myself when I was a kid yeah because I'm quite a chat box my grandma used to tell me that I'd be great at being a [ __ ] lawyer that's literally her words you'd be a great [ __ ] lawyer so the fact that I'm here now playing rugby internationally and having opportunities so many wonderful opportunities in media really only came about in the past six years so

00:01:27 - 00:02:17

it's been a wild Journey but I'm loving every minute of it so in that position that you're in because you're heavily involved in media and playing professionally as an athlete because you're in the Limelight in two different ways do you ever find that a struggle to compose yourself in a certain way do you feel pressure to to behave a certain way um I mean ultimately you always want to be perceived as a professional so I think like in both settings I definitely know within the core of my being that

00:01:53 - 00:02:42

I'm professional when I'm be play and and professional when I'm a media presenter I think sometimes it does create a little bit of a blurred line when you know you're asked to commentate on your own team or whatnot but it's It's tricky because you do have to almost be really mindful of the words that you use because it's ultimately still your team it's ultimately still your friends and the rest of it but then you also have to uphold your integrity as a media presenter and share your your

00:02:16 - 00:03:08

honest truth so finding neutral ground has been a journey but I think for the most part no one's tapped me on the shoulder and said you're doing a crap job at it so I think I'm on the right path and then how did you exactly slip into commentating cuz I feel like that's you know not a common thing for all athletes to have access to and especially so young in your career you've had an opportunity to pounce on a few opportunities there like what what's been I guess the defining moments that

00:02:42 - 00:03:32

have allowed that to happen it's so crazy Dan because again like I said I never envisioned this life of me yet alone if you told me I was when I was a kid that would be a commentator like what like that's insane people often see the commentary stuff but they don't actually see how it all started and my whole career in media was launched by ABC so about 3 years ago they invited me on to a show called that pacific Sports show as a guest so I went on I thought it was just amazing that there was a

00:03:07 - 00:03:52

show dedicated to celebrating the Excellence of Pacifica athletes like myself and our people and I basically walked up that set and I thought oh my God how cool would it be to like one day be involved in a TV show right because the first time i' ever been on a TV show to be interviewed any here about a few weeks later I received a text and I still remember the the words within that text like hi I'm Nick Morris shout out to Nick Morris is's a great man I watched you on that pacific sports show

00:03:30 - 00:04:24

I have a great opportunity that I'd like to speak to you about could we set up a time to chat long story short he watched that one episode and I guess how I spoke or I presented myself and offered me an opportunity to host a radio show on it called uh can you be more pacific with former NRL International Dean halow so I got stuck into that I was so green like so much so D like when I first rocked up I actually didn't know whether it was a radio show or TV show so I got my hair straight in and I full on had an outfit

00:03:56 - 00:04:54

I was like so when we heading they like upstairs to the booth I was like oh it's a radio show because I wasn't brave enough to ask is this a TV show or is is it a radio show anywh got up there was probably doing that for a few months and then I got a call from Channel 9 who obviously associated with Stan Sports from producer Andrew Spain he's also a commentator and was like Hey we've seen that you've been doing some stuff with ABC have you thought about commentary we have blood slow 3 coming up which is

00:04:25 - 00:05:23

obviously the wab be is going up against all blacks would you be interested in in joining our panel so I was a little bit taken back cuz again didn't really think I was going to be good enough to really stay in that space said yes and it's just been opportunity after opportunity after opportunity and it has been pretty tough because there was a time where the work was so plentiful that people were thinking like how can can can you afford to like quit your full-time job and just like be a media presenter I was like oh

00:04:54 - 00:05:51

no not yet but life has changed so dramatically since then and I'm now inen a place where I can have the joy of being a rugby player and being involved in media not having to do anything else outside of that I think it's really interesting how often times in life an opportunity will present itself out of something that wasn't prepared yeah right you were happy to be a guest on a show did a wonderful job speaking I imagine and then scouted to do media and then one media opportunity led into

00:05:23 - 00:06:26

another into another and I think you know obviously you have a knack or a talent to communicate when it comes to having this men this mentality versus your athlete mentality have they influenced each other like for example you being in a position where you're commentating and then being on the field playing have have they helped or hindered each other with your psyche in any way no I think there's so much transferable skill within that and I think the two words that come to mind is preparation and repetition to prepare

00:05:54 - 00:06:49

for any game you have to be prepared and that's ticking off your training load throughout the week y recovery watching your videos seeking your feedback studying the opposition so that you know exactly if they run this shape this is most likely where they're going to hit or attack or This Is How They defend Etc and then like so when I apply that skill of preparation to Media there is not a game that I go into where I don't look at that team list or I don't read up on that team for a few days leading in and

00:06:21 - 00:07:13

it's an intense preparation period but the preparation ultimately makes you feel like you're ready and that has put me in good stad and I think like you would know right working in this space you know when someone is prepared and you know when someone isn't you know when someone's organized and when they're not you know when someone's speaking the truth or they just made it up on the spot and I think for me like Integrity is such an important part of my life and my core values that I I want

00:06:47 - 00:07:43

people to respect me and what I do and like so how I hope to achieve that is by treating whatever task they give me with respect you know you give me an opportunity you want me to sit in front of a camera and represent your network that's that's huge you don't want to let that down you don't want to Fumble that bag so yeah the preparation has definitely been a key part of that and repetition I think I'm so good at talking because I'm so good at talking to myself I'm not kidding like the amount

00:07:15 - 00:08:09

of times I used to live in Campbell town once upon a time and I used to work in the city so those are long drives on the M5 and I would sit there and this is again before even ABC had first approached me and I just pretend ask myself questions like oh if you were ask this question what would you you say and looking in the mirror and you know I watch so many games of rugby and I like listen to what the commentator say I'm like that's a really articulate way to describe a play or to to praise a

00:07:42 - 00:08:36

certain athlete's ability and you you take note of it and you just kind of repeat those words and they become your own and they become part of your own language so the preparation and the repetition are so transferable between the football field and being in front of a mic or a camera and yeah I really pride myself on those two things because they've put me in good stad so far is that inherent in you to want to put that much effort in or did that come from you know your parents or your brothers or

00:08:09 - 00:09:02

your family like where did this I guess need to prep and focus on repetition come from well I always knew that as a kid like I had a knack for things but I wasn't very smart if that makes sense like I was good with words and I was good with English but like with math and science and the rest of it it was really tricky for me so I think because I knew the one thing that worked for me that was the one thing I gave my all to and like going to address the part of like my parents like my parents separated

00:08:36 - 00:09:31

when we were really really young and it was really rough upbringing and so I think there's this deep desire to succeed because we went so long without having things that we wanted or desired not to say that my parents didn't do a great job they did a phenomenal job with what they had but I think when you're a kid and like you miss out on excursions or you know you can't afford to have the electricity on that week or whatnot those things like deep with you create the sense of hunger to want to succeed

00:09:03 - 00:10:00

and I think that is something that I've only really acknowledged probably in the past few years is that this hunger to succeed and this desire to be great in my own life not necessarily to anyone else but so when I look at this look at myself in the mirror I'm proud of the person I see is because I remember all those times growing up where it was tough and we had to grow without um and I think that just makes me want to work hard and make sure again that when I'm given opportunities that I really exceed

00:09:32 - 00:10:20

in it because ultimately I hold the power to my own life and the way that it's unfolding and I I think it's interesting that you touched on your childhood so a little bit about myself I grew up in and out of foster care and domestic violence and you know I think I don't like to ever play comparisons ever I think you know we've all had things in our childhood that were difficult that we all have to come to terms with especially when we're adults leading into our 30s I think things come up we

00:09:56 - 00:10:50

realize them it sounds like you draw a lot of strength from it though and I think some times people can dance with these things from their childhood but like what kind of strength has that given you as an athlete and in your professional career in media like are there constant moments where you draw strength from from that oh 100% I love that you like mention that you don't want to compare stories because I feel like every single person has been on a journey I'm like mine's mine like mine's

00:10:23 - 00:11:17

mine and mine's like my story of growing up is what drives me to to ultimately be better but I I draw strength from it because those hard moments can really Define you and I think you're a great Testament to whatever circumstances you face as a child like you have This brilliant business and you're booming in your industry and like so you didn't become a victim of it and I think that's a really defining moment is do you choose to surrender to your circumstances or you just cup it on the chin because that's

00:10:50 - 00:11:41

just life and you build something from it um and I hope to think that I've done the ladder and it sounds like you have because I think you know to go for a week without power you know it as a child it's like a bizarre situation to be in because you as a child you will compare yourself to the other kids at school and what they wear and the kind of house they live in and all the rest of it and I think you know there can be this gritty competitive nature that comes out of you in adulthood where

00:11:15 - 00:12:18

you're like I want to make sure that I never have to experience that again or put my children through it or whatever for you when it comes to working in media and also you know being an athlete just to stay on this this thread again do you feel a a pressure to like I said behave a certain way but do you find that it impacts your personal brand being in media and being an athlete and do you think that it creates a narrative around what you're capable of doing and it affects either career um I think

00:11:46 - 00:12:31

ultimately it has always LED I've never thought of it being as a negative thing having a presence in media and having an onfield presence I think what it does do to my branding per se is it does create a bit of tension because I'm like oh I don't want to post too much of media because they won't think I'm a footballer I don't want to post too much about being a footballer because they won't necessarily think of me as a media personality which is crazy because in the past three months I've entertained

00:12:09 - 00:13:11

more conversations where people have said to me like oh are you still playing right and that becomes so offensive to me I actually just read an article recently where they're talking about the upcoming Olympics and the commentary team and they've called me a former International player and I was like I'm still current and I think in this more present period of my life that's where I find the tension is I'm like am I too much of one thing that I'm forgetting that I'm the other which is hard because

00:12:40 - 00:13:38

I have always been a footballer before I've been anything else that I have established in media so it does make me a little bit emotional because I'm like oh crap are they forgetting but at the end of the day I'm like I don't I don't play for the papers or anything like that I get to wear the jerseys I get to wear because of the coaches that enable it the people that I get to play with and like that's okay so I think if anything it does also make me a little bit more conservative

00:13:09 - 00:14:07

as to what I post probably close friends is what I post more so on my on my insta because it's hard because I'm like how do you po it be easy if I was just an athlete but I'm not I'm also a medie presenter but I think finding the balance of trying to post a bit of both is confusing because I think sometimes when people look at it like what do you what what do you do yeah people are trying to put a handle on you in a certain way where they want to look at you from a certain lens and I guess

00:13:38 - 00:14:34

being a current athlete and being in media is more of an anomaly than it is Common Place yeah definitely yeah so then I think you know this can happen with a lot of branding in personal branding where people do two or three things really well and it's difficult on how do they relay that message in a way that people can understand oh this person is a dynamic character they're doing multiple thing so I think you know if you look at someone like Joe Rogan who is a UFC commentator and a comedian

00:14:06 - 00:15:12

and a podcast you know host and all the rest of it like you know people kind of come to terms with what he is as a character because they get to learn that yeah have you had a strategy where you're trying to educate your community and your audience like hey I'm actually doing both out here yeah I think part of me wants to prove it so desperately that I'm many I'm many things I'm not just this and I'm not just that but I I I struggle to post sometimes on social media for like

00:14:40 - 00:15:27

weeks at a time because I'm like I've done so many cool things this month like so many cool cool things but I don't know how to post it because it doesn't fit into what I've been focusing on this month or what not does that make any sense like because there's so many things that I'm doing and there's so many great things I struggle because I'm like people don't just know as being a media person and as being a footballer so again going back to that conversation

00:15:03 - 00:15:59

if I just post the media do they forget that I played for my club that I proudly been at for like 10 plus years like you know so realistically I haven't actually found a strategy strategy to the brand I feel like my brain vomits and that's why I just do so many Instagram dumps everyone loves a dump I think you know Instagram is is an interesting like if we look at social media as a whole it's a weird situation because it it almost puts pressure on us to behave a certain way it's almost like act this way or act

00:15:31 - 00:16:30

that way you kind of both and I think you know this is a dilemma where how much does you know social media at large affect athletes so let's just put our athlete hat on temporarily here because I imagine these days you know teams not only and I'm taking a guess here they don't not only care about you as a player but they might care about how much attention you have and how much merch you can sell what kind of pressure is on athletes right now to have social media and to have a public profile

00:16:00 - 00:17:04

so much there's so much pressure I'll speak specifically to women's rugby because the sport is growing in our nation it isn't as established as say the matildas or the new southw Blues who just had a sensational origin campaign and for context how long have those two teams been around Matas have been here for a while I can't actually know I don't actually know that their period of when they started but just let's just speak about their popularity right in in society today people know who the matildas are

00:16:33 - 00:17:36

the Sky Blues they spoke about like a 25 million viewership on their three game series that is insane insane numbers you got Matilda selling out a match against China on a bloody week night like incredible times whereas what I feel like a struggle in Rugby Union is is the exposure isn't there yet so the pressure on the individual athlete to promote themselves is much greater and it's not because you got governing bodies or organizations saying you need to promote it you need to promote it you

00:17:05 - 00:17:55

need to Pro promote it I think the individuals come to realize no one's really promoting us or promoting me so I'm going to take it upon myself and do it so talking about the pressure I don't necessarily think it's pressure but we play an incredible sport I am so proud to play rugby union it is the greatest sport on Earth to me and all the girls that I get to play with are Sensational athletes I do feel sometimes though our story isn't told well or told often enough where people people know who we

00:17:30 - 00:18:23

are or anything like that and we always talk about having generational effect when it comes to our sport we you can't be what you can't see we want girls to grow up wanting to be rugby players playing for the tires playing for the wall Ros etc etc however girls can't do that unless they're necessarily exposed to it again there has been great steps made in trying to expose the game but it probably isn't the profile of Rugby Union and our athletes aren't on par with the leading Sports in our nation

00:17:56 - 00:18:53

and I think that is why athletes feel like they need to take it upon themselves to promote themselves promote their teams promote their games promote where they're playing promote what channel you can find it on like you tell me is a penth panther posting where to buy tickets for this weekend no you tell me is an AFL player telling us what stadium he's playing at this weekend they don't need to no but women will and female athletes will so there's still this Gap within marketing and branding

00:18:24 - 00:19:15

and exposure of our Sensational athletes that is still yet to be bridged but until then girls will always feel the pressure to promote themselves and promote their own game until we finally reach that place where they can just say I'm excited it's game day and not necessarily post the time they're playing or where they're playing are you finding that there's there's a shift happening are you finding that um you know as as maybe difficult as this might be that there's starting to be traction

00:18:50 - 00:19:43

where this sport is starting to really scale and grow yeah yeah cuz I'm I feel like there's more of a spotlight on female sports now more than ever I think it's starting to spread into different I guess different sports and different Realms and even like if you look at you know what's happening on Netflix I don't know if you've seen chains with the the cyclists or you know drive to survive with Formula 1 I feel like there's people are starting to look at Sports in a different way where it's not just the

00:19:17 - 00:20:02

game being played but it's like what's the dynamic on the team what's the relationships what's their life like behind the scenes and all the rest of it even in cricket we've got you know microphones on the field now where we can hear all of the trash talk so so for you are you finding that there's there's there's kind of too many gears changing at the same time and it's putting an immense amount of pressure on these women to promote and play sport and try to think about their current career and

00:19:40 - 00:20:33

their post career and all of the rest of it um not necessarily I I I think there is a lot happening and just to answer like your initial question I think there genuinely is a changing attitude from the public towards sport not just women in sport but sport in general like you're talking about car racing there football has been on an incredible rise in Australia cricket has always been at the Forefront of that wmbl as well has been incredible like there are so many things happening the perception

00:20:06 - 00:20:55

of people thinking about oh like to girls play sport I think that like that's a dying conversation like come on man 25 million people watching a three game series like come on and that's not just talking about Australian viewership like that's speaking of global viewership as well so I think the perception is changing there is a lot happening at one time the access that you can have to teams and the access that you can have to athletes is probably more than you've ever had before there's a documentary on

00:20:31 - 00:21:27

everything there's a documentary on the spring box there's a documentary on Bloody the Panthers and their preparation to their three-time Premiership win like the public has never had more access to players and to teams and to the inner sanctums of a late sporting environments and I think while it is a privilege for them to have access it also is pressure for the people on the inside as well what kind of pressure you seeing in the individuals right because being an athlete is enough like it's it's a lot

00:20:59 - 00:21:49

of prep wish I just knew I wish more of us knew that like to be who we are is actually just it's enough yeah like it's it's a lot to prep and to eat and to training to be up early and to be you know dealing with injuries and all the rest of it then you add media then you add the pressure of society having you know access behind the veil if you will like what what are you seeing happen in the players because of this um look while we can talk about media there's so many good things that media does for us

00:21:24 - 00:22:34

right and I definitely want to say that like let's talk about both sides then let's talk about both sides for I think the from what I can sense people want to do more about personal branding when there isn't necessarily enough about them out there which is fun because you know what as an athlete you have a time period or an expiration date on your career you just never know when it's going to be God willing it's far far far far far in the future it could be a freak accident it could be your contact sorry your

00:21:59 - 00:22:53

contract being inspired you could be you're not the flavor of the season for your coach for the coming season and he says you should probably go fly somewhere else you know so I think there's that fight to want to be seen isn't that like a basic need like you just want love and admiration and the rest of it and that's fine like that should be on it if you want to put something up about yourself so be it I think on the the the flip side of that is sometimes having the public have

00:22:25 - 00:23:34

access to you can be a little bit Di diminishing because they can say whatever they want and there's no accountability and I think that's a part that probably we don't talk about often enough is that people send you DMS and they say stupid [ __ ] and again you know it's a keyboard Warrior and you can place all the facts around it they don't know you it's obviously a lie blah blah blah but at the end of the day you just see someone who took time to bring you down and I actually remember one of my

00:23:00 - 00:23:46

early commentary gigs and now I have a rule like I won't go on I won't touch my phone while I'm or read DMS anyways particularly request if I'm on tellio what alive on air or anything like that because like someone just wrote to me like you should get off that couch you have absolutely no idea about what you're speaking about and the next time I looked at the camera all I could think about was this person is sitting in their loung and looking at me thinking that I'm an absolute joke and nothing

00:23:23 - 00:24:27

that I come out of my mouth has any substance and do you know how deflating that is because in your mind you think you're something or that you have a worthy opinion and the person sitting at home is like you're a joke and so much so I'm going to tell you that you're a joke so yeah look I probably digress a little bit there however just want to paint like a real picture social media when it's used in the right ways is such a powerful tool it can promote it can Empower it can unite it can celebrate

00:23:54 - 00:24:51

and then on the flip side of that it can tarnish it can deflate and it can discourage as well but you need to have measures of how you want to use it so for those out there listening to this that might be in the realm of sport or pursuing Media or what have you what's your advice in in those times where people are seeing these awful things on social media because like you said you as an athlete and as a media presenter you have self- accountability yeah but then it seems like the public don't have

00:24:24 - 00:25:17

that blanket of you need to be accountable for the words that you throw back how how do you handle that and how do you I guess give advice to those around you on how to how to deal with these situations filter your settings honestly filter your settings you ultimately get to tell people how much access they have to you you don't want them to have full access to you don't give it to them fter your damn settings and and you know there's other ways they can do it like people I see now more and

00:24:50 - 00:25:54

more often that athletes actually turn off the comment section like they may seem like small measures But ultimately it protects you and they can't give to unless you allow them to so luckily in that technology space there measures in place that you can use to help but I think you know like at the core of it all day it's like you need you need to like have a really strong sense of identity cuz Sticks and Stones what's it saying Sticks and Stones might hurt my bones no man heart too I think it's true like sometimes

00:25:21 - 00:26:10

like even still like I'll get just these like really rude comments and often times I get ones where they call me like they call me like a like a YouTube pedler or like they're like oh you sell books I'm like yeah and they're like you try to sell books to people at you know are doing it tough financially I'm like it's it's dude it's 28 bucks like you know what I mean but like people just I guess they're they're in a place where they're unhappy and I tried to steal a

00:25:46 - 00:26:37

page out of Gary V's book where he said you know if if you look at your audience and you love hearing the good then you'll love relishing in the bad but if you stop trying to listen to the cheers and you don't you kind of ignore the cheers you can also ignore the booze so I've started doing that I I I get praise online as well and I'm like okay cool whatever and I get booze online I'm like cool whatever like I just I've learned over five years to just kind of be like

00:26:12 - 00:27:09

let's just turn the temperature down and just kind of ignore this and just do what I love have you ever had a DM or request or any counter where like it's really affected you yeah but what I I started playing a game so my game is I call it equal force okay so if someone comes at me with some with some really snipy remarks and they're trying to be like hurtful and rude I'll equal force them by being sarcastic back and I'll make a joke of it I'll make a joke of something that they said okay right so

00:26:40 - 00:27:39

someone said to me the other day they said Dane you should be more considerate on how you present your information because you could mislead people and da I went on this like just this rant about how I'm misleading my My Tribe okay and then I said back I said something on the Tor of you should be more considerate and understand the fact that this is social media content I'm not giving a university lecture da so like I was just like yeah I was like equal force so you could say this is petty but this is my

00:27:09 - 00:27:58

way of kind of just dealing dealing with that I'm about it I hav't I haven't reach that level of where people are coming for me in that in that sense but I like that if you look up James Blunt you know the musician if you look up his replies to to Twitter threads or to X threads it's pretty funny like like the woolies ones yeah the woolies ones you just you just got to clap back a little bit and then move on with transport New South is very funny lately very very funny l so a little bit of equal force

00:27:34 - 00:28:25

just makes you feel a lot better but you could debate it's a petty thing to do but anyways moving on no that's fine sometimes Petty's Pretty Petty is pretty I think Petty is a pretty way to do it but yeah I think social media like I try to make it a game I'm like it's fun like people going to hate you know and the bigger you get the more the more you get it you know so for you have you found that as your career gets bigger do you find that the pressure builds or do you find that you get better at kind of

00:27:59 - 00:29:04

handling it oh I certainly am much better now at managing the commitments I say yes to I think when I was very much at the starting line of it I was yes to everything I was a yes woman like I think I'm shouted to my employees that had to deal with me throughout that first twoe period because I was making all kinds of crazy considerations being like if I come in at 8: can I leave by like 3: and do you mind if I just slip out that same day cuz I just I just need to take a quick Zoom call or whatnot so

00:28:36 - 00:29:44

I was just yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and then just burnout after burnout after burnout so now that I'm a little bit more older I just I'm so much more mindful of what I say yes and no to and I think big part of that is rugby the presence in my life has grown so much more we were an incredible place where we started Contracting players two years ago and that becomes firmly my biggest priority every single week and so making sure that I lock in recovery and can actually have dinner with my dad

00:29:10 - 00:30:04

or go see my grandma like small things like that become even more important to me than just saying yes to every event that I get asked to go to you know so there's definitely been some maturity in the journey it's such an easy thing to fall into when you're at the beginning cuz you're just so excited right that people want you um but something that I've figured lately is you know like what's meant for me will never pass me if I say no to one event that's okay I may not meet that

00:29:37 - 00:30:35

batch of people ever again but hey there'll be something else in the future and again like bring it back to rugby is the recovery and the preparation and just like looking after myself so I can be the best I can be as a rugby player is Paramount to anything else and so I think that having that as my true north has enabled me to mature a little bit quicker in probably the past 18 months and then as an athlete I imagine that you know you're getting pulled in all these different directions and a lot of

00:30:07 - 00:31:06

people want time with you and all the rest of it and I guess learning to say no is a powerful thing if if you were to look at your week as let's just say 2 24 hour time tokens like 24 tokens per day over the period of a week for an athlete like what do you think is ideal of where they where that time should be invested um one understanding your training load and training for everyone differs right some people are like oh I can just go to the gym and I'll jump on a bike after I do my lift and that's yardi for the day I'm

00:30:36 - 00:31:24

fan I'm not getting fitter on the bike I need to go actually run that's just the plain truth any coach that has had me will say the same thing like I much fitter when I'm actually on the field so one understanding your body as an athlete is crucial and it's Paramount to how you plan your week and your training load as well so what's a training load training load is essentially a training program for the week um so understanding your capacity understanding your capacity how many CS you need to hit

00:31:00 - 00:31:45

like they say you know the more speed exposures high speed exposures you have throughout the week the less chance you have of injuring yourself you know it's like you see it all the time people want to do staff races and they jump off the line and they pull a hammy bust of their killes both are actually true that just happened recently that's not funny it's really sad but sorry but you know what I mean so like like as an athlete you have to take all of those things into consideration so for me like just making

00:31:23 - 00:32:19

it more personal I know that I need to live three times a week I have at least two field sessions plus I need to run to remote sessions on my own getting recovery into there because my knees just don't bounce back as quickly as they did when I was younger so when I look at my week on a Sunday night I know for sure that I'm training at least five days including a playing day where does it fit what medeor opportunities do I need to attend or honor throughout the week and planning my week that way so as

00:31:51 - 00:32:49

an athlete in particular in a semi-professional space planning is your best friend and I'm pretty old school I think like I use a calendar but the calendar like if I actually don't have training in my diary for that day it's almost like I I won't know so planning at the beginning of the week having like a real thought process around it helps me manage it better so as long as all the training's in my recover is in if I have any medical appointments team doctor Etc that's all in whatever space

00:32:20 - 00:33:14

I have outside of that that I'm willing to give then I'll say yes to doing X Y or z um but I've just like recently moved back into the area that I'm currently living in which is much closer to my family and I don't know man like does making you old just make you a little bit more sentimental like I'm not even that old like I'm just coming into my late 20s at the moment but like the want and the desire to like see my family is is higher than it's ever been and I don't know like I just like I look

00:32:47 - 00:33:48

at my grandma all the time I'm like you never know like you actually never know like life is life is here and then life can be gone like who are we to say that tomorrow's going to be here so like yeah again like coming to that whole I've feel like I've matured a little bit more of late um the family piece has been has been a real big piece I think what you said there about family is true because I you know I I had to come to terms with things that happened in my childhood and I can look back on it now and draw a

00:33:17 - 00:34:08

tremendous amount of strength from it for a long time I couldn't and I think you know one of the things that really helped me was what I call a reframe and for those that don't know what a reframe is if if you look at let's just say a a picture of a Ferrari and you put a beautiful golden foiled frame around it that picture is going to feel a certain way take the gold frame off it and put a neon frame around it it's going to feel different I think when you frame something that's happened to us

00:33:43 - 00:34:34

differently you can take a different approach you know like if someone gets out of a car accident one person could say that's the worst thing that's ever happened to me and the other person could say thank God I'm alive it's perspective right for me when I look back at my childhood and my family there times where it was really tough I have a mantra that I say and that is that my mother was doing the best she could with the tools she had at that time I genuinely believe that you know

00:34:08 - 00:35:03

and I think as we grow and as we mature we get different tools so for you when it when it comes to family it's that that emotion is powerful and like you said you you've come into maturity recently and family is changing and how you feel about it has changed as well is that something that you were maybe ignoring and now is surface in it you can draw strength from it like what's the dynamic there yeah definitely I think reframing is such a powerful word to use cuz that's definitely the language that comes to

00:34:35 - 00:35:44

mind when I think about them of like it's been a journey and I think when I was early in my 20s I definitely ignored it and then I was like oh it is what it is it's whatever but then there's something about coming to your like 20s where I feel like all your trauma just comes to the surface and and you kind of have to deal with it um and finding peace finding peace and accepting things people as they are has been healing and I think that's why it brings so much emotion is because you spend you

00:35:14 - 00:36:19

know so long ignoring it or having this pent up anger but when you take the time to reframe it and acknowledge that you know your parents and your siblings and everyone else involved in your family Union unit sorry are humans as well it it softens your heart in a different way I feel that and I think you know for me something I love which is from K Yong he says first you adore your parents then you reject your parents and then you accept your parents oh preach day yeah right because I had that season too

00:35:46 - 00:36:38

where I you reject your parents you like they don't know any good you know like this and that and I know better and I'm 16 and I got my [ __ ] sorted you know then you get older and you're like hang on a minute I've I've experienced this world and now I get it yeah yeah it's tough man definitely so with your family you come from a long line of professional athletes yeah let's just say that and with both your brothers playing in the NRL from what I understand the Panthers and the Tigers

00:36:11 - 00:37:04

yeah did you ever feel the like the pressure to play sports like or was that a choice no definitely a choice the boys started playing my brothers wasn't care started playing when they were young so a lot of my childhood is filled with memories just being like that snotty kid on the sidelines like climbing you know machines or just playing with all the other kids not necessarily paying any attention to any of the footy that was happening however when my opportunity came about it was in 2012 I was in my

00:36:38 - 00:37:32

final year of high school there was a bit of a call out because Rio Olympics was going to introduce rugby sevens as an Olympic sport Australia went mad trying to find talent and because I was attending a sports high school like do you want to try rugby and I was like no this game is so confusing like why do you guys always kick the ball away cuz rugby league right you get five and then you kick any who ended up trying that out told my brothers about it and they were pretty stoked for me to be honest

00:37:05 - 00:37:56

they just thought it was pretty exciting that I wanted to try a sport that was a contact sport they've always been really supportive and I think growing up there was never pressure there was just immense Pride because Wesley in particular played St George in like such a magical era you had the likes like Matt Cooper and I remember there was this post it was like w was on one side and Matt Cooper was on the other side and I took like 10 copies to score and I was like this is my brother guys like

00:37:29 - 00:38:35

just so so much pride um and so now that I'm on this journey of sport as well I probably find even deeper connection with my brothers because they can empathize and they fully understand the setting of an Elite Sporting environment they understand the highs and lows of selection they understand you know just all the things that come with being an athlete there's never been pressure off their end it's always been pride and support support and so much love how old were you when you realized

00:38:07 - 00:39:17

that you wanted to play professionally was that a slow burn or was there a moment there was definitely a moment it was 2022 2022 which isn't that far oh sorry that long ago so women's 15s is obviously a sem professional sport so being able to pursue this in a full-time capacity at this moment of recording is not possible because it's just not the way the game is built at the moment 2022 it was my year that I debuted for the waloos we went off to World Cup and it was such a special campaign and on the

00:38:44 - 00:39:52

back of that there was news that was being shared to us as a group that contracts were going to be issued the following year which was last year and I just knew knew within me that I wanted a contract I didn't know what the the commitment was going to be I didn't know what kind of time it would require but I just knew I wanted a contract and I'm so thankful that God had blessed me with one and that's where there was a real light bulb moment from 2022 being like if there is even the smallest tense

00:39:19 - 00:40:33

of being able to pursue this and be considered as a professional I want it and so again grateful I got one in that first year and still on contractor at the moment and want to be Contra contracted sorry as long as I possibly can be did your brothers have any key advice that they had mentored you with over the you know last few years um not really the thing is with my brothers is because the sport has been their life for so long when we get home even when I get home we barely talk about rugby or

00:39:56 - 00:40:46

League or anything else because they both live abroad at the moment when they come home all they want is family time and I love that and I respect that cuz to be honest I think about rugby every other time like I go to the toilet at 3 o'clock in the morning and I'm thinking like I need a clip clips for my coach this week but when the boys around it's not like that and I think that's what I love about our relationship is that yes it's competitive and we can do all the fun stuff together and we can definitely

00:40:21 - 00:41:10

talk rugby if we need to but what I will always remember about my brothers throughout my Rugby career is that they always been supportive they've always been encouraging when there's that awkward text message like hey guys like I didn't make the game day 23 this week it's like it's all right sis love you we'll go again next week like those are the moments I'll always remember and cherish that's beautiful thank you now swapping hats back over to Media again yes okay so when it comes to Media I

00:40:46 - 00:41:55

think this is really interesting because a lot of people want to start a podcast or you know become a host on radio or what have you or like be a commentator in in the r of sports is there a misconception in and among players about what it really takes to be a spectator or a commentator on Sports yes people often come back after so people often try and enter media once they finish playing and say I want to be a commentator I think the biggest misconception is it's not just talking it's presenting and that's the

00:41:21 - 00:42:13

key part is that anyone can talk about code anyone can talk about how great of a tackle or detail or provide detail around a certain play but the key component to sitting in front of a camera is the ability to present as well and that's hard it doesn't come easy for a lot of people because it actually means you have to like look down a barrel you have to deal with so many different moving Parts when particularly when you're on live TV you have a producer in your ear you have cameras

00:41:47 - 00:42:38

you have lights you have crowds you have players there's so much happening around you that it is really overstimulating environment however what I think has helped me in my career is I often MC events and mcing events is great because it gives you one a live interaction so you get a feel of a room and you would know this right doing massive Keynotes you know when you've got the room and you know when you don't you can pick up on the energy straight away you could be three minutes deep into your

00:42:13 - 00:43:08

presentation and you know you've lost the room because that back table is talking like I you become so aware right of the dynamic in a room and like almost like you become the room yes and you're like this is itchy this like this group at the back that aren't paying attention like come on guys and it kind irks you too cuz you're like I've put my heart and my soul into this then you get angry yeah and then you become passive aggressive over the mic and then I do one to many sh to try and quiet in the room again

00:42:40 - 00:43:48

you get this right I'm not going crazy you get this da yeah so y again why I'm why I'm saying that is I would almost encourage athletes to take as many Live Events where there's no camera to build up your confidence and your resilience as well because when you lose a room like you can host an event 50 people that's fine then it jumps to 300 then you can jump to about 1500 people we've done it right but you know how to hold it so I think when you can build your confidence of speaking in

00:43:14 - 00:44:21

front of that many people or controlling multiple Dynamics at one given time it builds a presence and a confidence on camera and I've had this conversation with people that are working behind behind the scenes in media is this is the common misconception is athletes finish their careers and then they want to come to commentary but they don't have the necessary skills so that's why I think it is so freaking cool that I get the opportunity to present while I'm still playing because once I finish I

00:43:48 - 00:44:40

already have the experience to do it and therefore there's a trust between myself and whatever Network I get to CH choose to work with because I like she has a proven record of doing it in in some ways I feel like it would give you an edge yeah because you're on the field then you're off the field commentating and you're like how many commentators can really know what it feels like in the present day to be in the game yeah yeah so I don't know I feel like it gives you a little bit of an X Factor it

00:44:13 - 00:45:08

does it's it's a really unique space that I'm in and I fully acknowledge that because again you're more times than often just a presenter and or you're just a rugby player but the fact that I'm doing both and playing like quality High representative rugby and at the same time getting to work with reputable networks as well it's insane and I know that this is Uncharted Territory but the biggest thing that I'm most grateful for is that both worlds allow me to pursue

00:44:41 - 00:45:33

the other at the same time and I like what you said about you know getting a feel for the room and I I liken it to getting your sea legs you know right before before you want to go into the full brunt of battle just get used to being on the you know on the ship kind of swaying side to side and get the the balance right because I think you know now that I do big Keynotes I think I always draw strength from those moments where there was 20 30 50 people and I'm like you can create a bag of tricks with

00:45:07 - 00:45:57

a small room you're like this one joke always works or this one thing or I can get the attention this way I I like that because I think anyone who wants to get into media I think you know try to do the small rooms try to do the small settings the mcing and I think that's a great way to get started to find your voice and to become confident when there are lights and cameras and an earpiece and all of this over stimulating happening I think like just to add to that one quickly as well is like have

00:45:32 - 00:46:32

conversations while you're still an athlete if the world of media is somewhere that you do want to get into because there can only ever be so many commentators you know per Network SL team Etc so if this is something that you want to pursue in your career once you hang up the boots or whatever your sport may be start speaking to key people like make the most of whoever your player develop managers are in your Club start speaking into the marketing person within your organization just putting fers out there having your

00:46:02 - 00:46:46

coffees Etc I again acknowledge I've been on this completely unique path where I have been so privileged to be presented opportunities where I didn't go pursuing because I didn't even know I wanted this in the first place um however it's not always going to be like that for everyone else so if you're not already in the realm but you have a desire to be in that realm make the most of the contacts that you have while you're still a current player so as a current player someone who's listening

00:46:25 - 00:47:15

to this what are some things that they could do activ right so let's say they've got their coaches they're surrounded by all of this media and all the rest of it how should they conduct themselves how should they approach people what are some common like pillars or things that they could keep front of mind to help them definitely Define what you want I think it's sometimes really flat when you get to go to meetings and they're like so what do you want you're like oh I don't know not to say that you can't

00:46:50 - 00:47:34

figure it out with a mentor like I'm not saying that at all but kind of have an idea of what you're trying to pursue because that will really narrow down the conversations that you have in the people that you want to network with and then second to that once you do that think about the people that are currently in your world that can help support you get there and one thing that players often do particularly in rugby is we underutilize our networks like when we get to go to these networking

00:47:12 - 00:48:02

events and I'm so guilty of it as well you end up just sitting with your teammates and there are a bunch of sponsors that are so excited to meet you and they want to have a coffee with you and they want to take you to their building and they want to introduce you to XY and Z when and I've heard this from retired players they say once you finish playing you will miss the networks that you had so much access to because you sat down in a corner and just spoke to your teammates like you couldn't speak to them the next day and

00:47:37 - 00:48:36

I think that is such a crucial thing and it takes so much courage to like put yourself out there but be the one to pursue it um and and try and think about like every team has sponsors right every team has a sponsor it doesn't matter whether you're playing under Sixers playing under 12s or you're playing subes or you're playing first grade for a sh Shield Club every Club has sponsors and within those are reputable people or or or thinkers within their industry so like get to know them take their business card ask

00:48:06 - 00:48:59

for a coffee it'll take you so much further than what you think it will beyond the actual playing of the game itself when it comes to that networking in that room what positive impact could that have like I guess your coach is watching the people who own the company are watching what impression and what ripples does that send throughout the entire organization when you're out there shaking the hands with the sponsors collecting business cards going for coffee like do the do people see this as a threat or do they see this as

00:48:33 - 00:49:26

like we need to prioritize her like what's what's the demeanor behind that I think the perception that it gives away is that you're engaging and that you care and truth of the matter is a lot of teams couldn't do what they do or go as far as they could if it wasn't for the sponsors that so generously put their hands in their pockets to support you and your teammates and your dreams and aspirations so I think from a business point of view they get exactly what they want they want the engagement with the

00:48:59 - 00:49:47

players because a lot of I mean I feel like you could speak to this better than I could but a lot of business owners or entrepreneurs think that people that are involved in sport will be highly successful in in their workplaces because they have all of those teamwork skills now down collaborative working thinking Etc so I think from a business point of view they definitely achieve what they want and then I think from an organization as well they think you care you care and you engage and you want to

00:49:23 - 00:50:15

be at those breakfasts at like 7:00 in the morning on your day off Etc so so I think there's like this this trade-off that happens where the business or the sponsor ultimately gets what they've desired which is the engagement and the collaboration with the player and then from the flip side of that the organization are like they they care and that goes so far that goes so far like you can't tell someone that you care about something without showing them and I think the ultimate Way of proving that

00:49:49 - 00:50:46

to your organization is by engaging in the things that they ask you to do well one of my friends Danny alen page said to me that you know he he ended up in the professional leagues playing soccer not because he was the best player but because he was shaking hands and he was making friends and he was more diligently hardworking and that impressed the people around him more than how many points he got on the board do you think that these sponsorships and these relationships could close a contract for a player if

00:50:18 - 00:51:23

they work the room the right way or is it purely just the skill set on the field um I feel like that's a really hard one for me to answer because the way that Migra is structured isn't necessarily like that I think having genuine relationship and engagement with your sponsors will always put you in good St with your organization though like imagine having a disgruntled sponsor because you were rude to them like what kind of perception that gives off to your organization so like it's a really

00:50:51 - 00:51:53

long-winded way of answering your question however the way that my game is structured I don't necessarily think it's the who you know that will close off on your contract but I think maintaining those relationships are so important because look I don't want to bring up old things but like we all saw what happened to isra that was a disgruntled sponsor and quantis pulled their sponsorship from rugby Australia like that was a huge moment for our game for him as an individual so that's kind of what I'm

00:51:21 - 00:52:13

trying to say is that again it wouldn't hurt to have to always have equality genuine encounter with your sponsors because again there's so much they do and that takes your team further than what you're organization can and I think I can only imagine and I'm guessing here but like if you were behind the scenes you're trying to pick the draft of the players if there are two that are kind of even keill and one of them is really pleasing the sponsors and the other one doesn't care you know what I mean I

00:51:48 - 00:52:42

think when it's like a close rally it might be might be that little bit of an edge I wouldn't know I'd hate to be a coach figure it out and he like well she talks to the sponsors better so she's getting selected this speaking the other one isn't again I don't necessarily know how that would pan out or work out but again like teams always Pride themselves on having good people like they always say like good humans make good players right doing the right thing is always the right thing sponsors have obviously

00:52:15 - 00:53:20

put up money to be there you know it doesn't hurt to just you know I guess shake their hand and say hello exactly regarding postc career how much does that networking in the room support postc career and what kind of opportunities can athletes pursue Beyond just I guess you know commentating it's so crazy how much you could enhance your career post playing by creating networks while you're still playing and the thing is rugby is a global game right so it attracts different businesses and

00:52:47 - 00:53:59

different people not just tunnel to one sector and I think the value that you will get out of your networks is proven to go as far as you create your own networks I don't know if that makes any sense you know what I mean like your network can only go as far as how much you network yeah so don't expect to go to England and you know sit in a senior position if you sat in the corner at a sponsorship event and didn't say anything to anyone so you kind of have to go get it if you want it and the

00:53:24 - 00:54:26

connections that are readily available to you plentiful you just need to pursue it like I currently have a mentor and she's based in Melbourne and we catch up about every couple months when I'm in Melbourne I'll go see her when she's in Sydney we'll catch up for a coffee but when I look at her she adds so much value to my life purely because of her mentorship but outside of that I know that she has worked in government the organization she works for have global global officers so you're always

00:53:55 - 00:54:46

thinking bigger picture right like if if I needed something she'll be able to assist etc etc so again I can't really stress enough how important it is to try and network while you are still playing go to those events go to the breakfasts go to the lunches get up out of the corner go speak to the other person in the opposite corner because you actually never know like people are so unassuming in this day and age like you look at like you look at CEOs these days and they they dress just like you and you

00:54:20 - 00:55:12

think once upon a time they used to wear a neck tie and have like a matching suit but like every impression counts in every encounter could potentially to something crazy yeah you're totally right like it's almost like the Richer people get the more unassuming they become I remember I was at a networking party recently and I was just hanging out with a few people and I got introduced and they're like hey here's the CMO of visa and the CEO of Coca-Cola was like oh hi hi you know like and they

00:54:46 - 00:55:44

just look like anyone else they you you you'd picture these characters looking a certain way but they're not and I think you know one time many years ago when I was in my early 20s I I had dinner with a man who was quite wealthy and he just showed up in an ACD ACDC shirt ripped jeans and a pair of thongs and he gave me a piece of advice that always stayed with me and this guy ran one of the biggest telecom companies in the US and he said Dane your network will either help or hinder you dependent on how you

00:55:14 - 00:56:13

nurture it yeah and that stuck with me because he's like if you're terrible to your network the minute you need help it's not going to respond if you're always giving and you know doing favors for your network the minute you turn around you need something they're right there to help it's transactional right it is transactional yeah you got to plant seeds you know reap what you seow exactly for you I think you know I just I'm so fascinated by the position you're in with with media and I think you know

00:55:44 - 00:56:58

how has it infected you as an interviewee right so you're going on a show to talk about yourself as an athlete being on the other side has it helped you conduct yourself as an athlete yes ask better [Laughter] questions honestly ask better questions it's crazy because as athletes right you get ask questions all the time and now that I get to sometimes sit on the other end where I get to ask the questions I just think like you can just be genuine and be true and not be so scripted and heavy and not that producers ever want

00:56:21 - 00:57:24

you to be that way however I think because I'm a player I'm like man you ask like the same questions all the time pick a moment ask about the emotion in that moment and I think that the exposure of being an athlete allows me to ask better questions when I'm on the other side and being a presenter so it's it's fun but I also have to say sometimes I think about these wonderful big elaborate questions that I'm going to ask and then as soon as they're like s to you in 3 2 1 that question goes out

00:56:53 - 00:57:38

of my mind and I ask something completely different that I didn't even think about or thought I cared about but crazy how the brain works it's weird right because I think you know having a podcast has taught me a lot about you know people have different energies and they have different ways they like to answer questions and you know everyone has different boundary lines and all the rest of it so it's part reading the person it's also part like trying to figure out how do I structure this

00:57:15 - 00:58:16

question in a way that resonates with them it's like it's so many layers like you said before you got the lights the earpiece everything is all happening at once how do you how do you find that you can prepare yourself to be in media like what are some things that you like to do to get yourself prepped to make sure that you're ready the second that the lights are on media training I feel like is such a vague term to use however in most Elite Sporting teams that is read available so I definitely say like media training the

00:57:45 - 00:58:46

other part which is really hard is you need to get someone who is a seasoned campaigner to critique your work and when I first jumped on radio I used to have a guy that used to call me once a month and he would listen to some of the weekly episodes and just gave me feedback and the more feedback that you get I know sometimes it can be a little bit daunting because can be critical but that's the way that you keep yourself as I guess coachable in a way and continually hone your skills so get training if you can get training

00:58:15 - 00:59:13

if not whatever work that you do just get someone to critique it and something that one of my friends taught me is say for instance if you wanted to be a commentator pause let the play byplay happen cuz as we know play byplay details every single thing that happens and as soon as there's a stoppage put the TV on mute and what would your comment be and like you can practice in those small moments and the amount of times that I find myself doing that even today is so valuable because if you think about the game of sevens right

00:58:44 - 00:59:36

sevens is so fast and so quick and as a second voice commentator I can only speak in stoppages so essentially if they knock the ball on go for a scrum go for a line out or if they're running back after they've kicked their conversion so your time to speak could be as long as 15 seconds and sometimes as short as 5 and sometimes you might not even get in so you need to learn how to be quick you need to be concise and you need to find as many adjectives this is for Real find as many different

00:59:10 - 01:00:06

adjectives if you can to describe a certain thing if quick everyone in sevens is quick imagine if you're listening to me for 14 minutes every time I spoke I use the word quick boring right and this is a piece of valuable advice I got is think about five different movements or five different attributes that are consistent throughout rugby it might be fast it might be dynamic it might be skillful it might be Visionary whatever it is and then another five words to explain that exact same thing and then you keep that

00:59:39 - 01:00:23

out there which is something that I do you keep the words there so you look at it so I could be looking at Dane Dane's just made a man like no I wouldn't say mad he's made an insane line bre simply Visionary because he could see the space on the right hand Edge you could see this port coming through and look at another word that was just I don't know like they're reading off the same script at the moment but you just have like you have to just load yourself up with words you have to load yourself up with

01:00:00 - 01:00:54

moments because in rugby while yes every game is different there's nothing new every single play every single mistake is something that you've already seen it's just your ability to be able to detail it in a way that can resonate with the viewer sorry that was insane I no I love that cuz you're you're going deep there and you're adding to the moment so like as you're commentating like you said you might have 3 seconds 5 Seconds something's just happen and the window for you captur that moment and

01:00:27 - 01:01:18

narrate it is so finite so you're saying that rather than just relying on the same batch of words you want to expand your vocabulary so you can communicate different things slightly different ways exactly because if you say rapid that means one thing quick means slightly another thing so even the adjectives you use can slightly change how that what you said feels definitely and like you can load yourself up in the moment and the reason why I came across the whole adjective things is because it was two

01:00:53 - 01:01:49

things one when I was getting my radio critique every month month he said I used the word absolutely in almost every response that I had absolutely absolutely absolutely it's like you need to find a new word and then second when I came to Seven's commentary um Shan Maloney who is a stand sport play-by-play commentator incredible man love him he said the same thing to me he's like you need to find different ways to explain the same thing because the game is so rapid and it moves so quickly you don't want to be using the

01:01:21 - 01:02:16

same batch of words cuz more likely people are inclined to watch 14 minutes of rugby as they are opposed to 80 minutes of rugby so they're listening and they're engaged and the other part of like being in the moment is often when you watch highlights that you have to be quick and your energy matters so much right and that's another part to it is the range in your voice like can you ride the wave of an exciting play if not if there's not much doing in that play can you still find a moment to honor that play

01:01:49 - 01:02:46

because it's still a big deal for them to put on their their Jersey and represent their country on a global stage so there's so many different elements but the more that you can see feedback it honestly it it creates a different element and adds another layer to to your commentary and to your style so when you're doing cometry do do you have people you aspire to to learn from and who do you look up to I love that you've asked this question so Ricky swanel she is a world rugby commentator

01:02:16 - 01:03:14

she's based in New Zealand and she is in my experience so far the only play-by-play female commentator that I have worked with and it is such a unique space cuz there's not many there are many play-by-play commentators but even slighter shorter numbers when it comes to female play-by-play and I just think she's a professional she's so kind she's empathetic when we get to work together and I just have so much respect for what she does and on the flip side of that I really just admire like the people that

01:02:46 - 01:03:27

I get to work with like my friend one of my closest friends tassy she always says to me do you ever take a moment to actually think like this is your life I was like what do you mean she's like you get your makeup done done like on a Monday your hair and makeup done like on a Monday you work on a TV show you come to training and then you go to a game on a Friday and you're on the field and you're interviewing players and like look at the people that you work with like we used to watch them on tell

01:03:07 - 01:03:58

growing up like those are the people you get to work with I think oh yeah true that's so cool like I don't you don't often like take a moment to reflect and really acknowledge like the journey and I just think the people that I get to work with whether it's at ABC or whether it's at stport like I love them and I think they're just complete professionals and in all honesty it's it's a joy to be in their presence and share share this work with them do you watch a lot of games that are like

01:03:32 - 01:04:25

recorded and practice Yeah commentary yeah definitely yeah I have the Olympics coming up um kicking off in the Congratulations by the way that's so exciting it's so cool I'm going do you feel extra pressure like it's the Olympics yeah absolutely it's like the world's biggest multi-event spectacle like it doesn't get any bigger than the damn Olympics which I'm really excited about it's I think my preparation hasn't necessarily changed because the same way that I would prepare for like a

01:03:59 - 01:04:57

stop on the World Series is the same that I'm doing this however because Channel 9 obviously is the broadcast for Australia the thought of my voice being on Free To Wear TV and is accessible by as many Australians that desire to watch the sevens is like such a cool thought so I've been practicing I've been trying to hone in and just watching a lot of old sevens commentary to be like I like that I don't want to do that and also listening to myself man there's nothing more hum than listening to yourself I

01:04:28 - 01:05:17

hate nothing more in this world than listening to myself cuz I've sat on this podcast and done a bunch of episodes and I'll sit down and I'll listen to myself I'm like this is so annoying why did he say yeah so many times why is he gone what's up with that facial expression that see that that's a thing right when you think it's in it's engaging right when you say yeah yeah yeah and when I was working on radio my producer said to me you need to stop agreeing on air we

01:04:53 - 01:05:39

get it I was like but I just want them to know that I'm engaging but they don't realize or we don't realize that is actually really disruptive to the The Listener cuz in a in a conversation it's normal like if you're hanging out with friends you'll be like yeah yeah yeah yeah back and forth but then when you're listening to audio and you're trying to listen to someone be interviewed and you just see yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it disrupts the whole flow of it everything

01:05:15 - 01:06:12

yeah everything see right there cringe moments yeah so many cringe moments when you watch yourself back so when you watch yourself back what do you look for what do you try to pick up on what do you try what do you try to adjust when I listen to myself watch myself back the amount of fill words I use like I try to get rid of it and I think I don't always nail it sometimes I'm like that was great no arms no eyes clear concise decisive in my language another part I look at if I'm looking at myself

01:05:43 - 01:06:42

on tell is my eye contact levels you're sitting here why am I looking here why am I looking there why am I looking at the roof the roof seems to be my default I look up at the roof like the roof who's going to ask a question for me so the filler words the eye contact and the body language I hate this I hate slouching on camera I feel like it looks so lazy not engaged you don't care for it so the posture and then the questions as well a lot of the work that I do on ABC he's asking questions coming in and

01:06:13 - 01:07:09

out of Packages Etc how well do I transition how can I transition from a conversation to Auto cure you know there are things that the viewer at home probably won't necessarily pick up on but there's stuff that you notice in the moment you think I could be tired of there that was good I'll do that again do you find that like being hypocritical and having a coach and someone kind of go over your broadcast and feedback is sped up how much how good you are at it definitely I think there needs to be

01:06:42 - 01:07:33

there's a part of me that I I think everyone kind of has is like what I'm doing isn't good enough yet and so you're seeking ways constantly of like how can I be better how can I how can I improve and I think the more that you allow yourself to be a sponge obviously having some boundary of being able to protect yourself and having a sense of self has definitely developed that no one really wants to speak to someone who thinks that they know it all you know it's and again like I I still to this

01:07:08 - 01:08:00

day and I fully believe it that I'm still Green in this space like I'm such a rookie but I'm am happy happy happy happy happy happy to be a rookie in it because I don't know everything and I still make mistakes which means I still need advice I would agree with that and I think you know I always try to take the mentality of if you want to be a true Master you have to to always remain a student always student always remain a student do you find when you're actually playing that you commentate yourself

01:07:33 - 01:08:17

when you're on the field yes particularly these days it was so humbling I was like coming off the bench for most of it so I sat on the bench with our finishes and I would like talk about a moment and the girls would turn around being like you're in your stupid commentary mode like just be here and I'm like what it was a great run like did you see how great she was at the breakdown like that was a great technique blah blah blah so I find when I'm particularly on the bench like I commentate so much more but it's not

01:07:56 - 01:08:52

that I'm commentating in the moment it's just your awareness to recognize a moment or something that could change your momentum of the game is like it's greater so when I'm on the field I feel like I'm a little bit more mindful of like my body language or whatever because I know those are the things that commentators look out for ETC so probably subconsciously The Knowing of how media Works does seep in when I'm playing but then at the same time like I can't help it if I'm breathless and my hair looks

01:08:23 - 01:09:11

crazy and the rest of it like the this is me in my element like honestly I I have completely made peace of the fact that I am not an attractive rugby player like I'm just a rugby player when I'm out there my hair is crazy I've got tape everywhere I've got tape on my Nae tape on my head tape on my wrist it is what it is I'm so fine with it it's on brand it's on brand we player yeah so when you're on the field what are some things that you can do to get more attention

01:08:47 - 01:09:44

from commentary oh have a good game just be good just just be good look to be fair like it's commentary isn't necessarily about just highlighting the end goal the try the whatever it's about moments right and I think I don't necessarily think on the field what can I do now to get more like track time or sorry air time from the commentators Etc I just think about my team and like what I can do because the last thing you want to do is who cares about them because at the end of the

01:09:16 - 01:10:11

week you have to sit in a review and if you didn't own your moment whether it was an attack or defense or in set Pace like that's who cares about what the commentators think it's your team that you owe it to I like their mentality team first 100% like I I feel like there could be like this misconception sometimes oh you mindful of like the media and all the rest of it you can't do two things at one time like when I'm on the field I am fully there with my team thinking about the Jersey on my back Etc and then when

01:09:43 - 01:10:59

I'm a media not necessarily thinking about anything else other than what I'm doing at that present moment so with your team you know do you are there things that you try to do as an individual to get your team fired up to bring the energy and the frequency up you know and can even an individual of a team do that there are definitely different energy types and personalities within a team I'm I'm not the let's go person nope not me what I will do is I like to play this church by Tain before we run out for

01:10:21 - 01:11:21

Walmart it's a great song freaking great song it's groovin and that kind of gets the team going so I'm not necessarily a big speaker like I I speak obviously a lot but I'm not a talker in like the huddles I'm not the person that's like trying to ramp everyone up there's time in place for it our leaders already assigned Captain will speak whoever she's asked will speak also so for me the way that I feel like I can best support my team in terms of energy is like one playing that

01:10:50 - 01:11:41

song before we run out for warm up and two is just being really encouraging when we're out there there is so much head noise that happens throughout the week so much doubt that you have even when you're running out there like warming up looking at the opposition the stadium starting to fill in a little bit and I've I've picked up on it is that like if we do something really great i' like bloody hell you're a world class Winger like that that right there like that's that's a bloody scrum like it's a

01:11:16 - 01:11:59

great day to be a witi today like there are things like that that I feel really encourage the girls and I don't just say it in vain I say it because in my heart I believe it and I believe in my team and I believe in what we're trying to do and yeah it's been it's been an amazing season and I'm I'm so grateful I get to do with him it's so exciting I I can only imagine being in the middle of a game maybe you're you're having a bit of a rough moment in the game but then you

01:11:38 - 01:12:29

have a a little moment where you won something and you just hear that comment and just picks you back up and gets you to refocus and I think maybe that would really help someone's psyche out there definitely and I like on the note of psyche there's been so much emphasis on having mental Fitness coaches in your Elite spaces and we've been really fortunate in both both warar and wo to have one and I also have like I see him personally as well his name is David King shout out DK shout out DK shout out

01:12:02 - 01:12:51

DK but I have been in test matches for Australia where I've genuinely thought I've lost us the game and I've looked at our half I'm like I'm freaking out I've just fluffed and she's like it's okay we'll get the ball again and I'll kick for territory do you know how much that does for you in a moment where you genuinely think you've lost a game for your country insane just that person who's by his side to be like we're going to keep going yeah it's okay we'll make mistakes

01:12:28 - 01:13:30

we'll go again so before you said you had someone to help you with I guess your mental Fitness as a coach what does that mean for you what's that done for you and and how has that helped your career there are so many things that you experien as an athlete that you actually don't know how to navigate on your own head noise doubt self worth issues there's a plethora you mean by head noise head noise of just the head noise is the voices inside your head that probably take you away from a

01:12:57 - 01:14:01

positive sense of self it could be doubt it could be worry it could be again that feeling of not feeling like you're good enough to be where you are or having the right tools to accomplish whatever the team is trying to set out to do so having someone like DK in our Corner who mentors us and gives us more tools of how to deal with our own head noise has been life-changing and I think another part people don't often talk about which has definitely been a part big part of my journey is the highs and lows of

01:13:30 - 01:14:43

selection is at the end of the day in a game of 15s only 23 players get chosen to play and if you're not part of that it can really take a hit at your sense of confidence but something that he told me a few years ago which has stuck with me since is don't surrender your identity to a team list and I think that is so powerful and has meant more to me in this current season of life than it has in my entire 40 career today is don't surrender your sense of self is because while I am a rugby player I am not just a rugby

01:14:06 - 01:14:54

player and my Rugby playing career isn't just defined whether I make that team Le for that week or not there's been so many wonderful moments don't surrender to that one week of non selection or that campaign so it's tough sometimes because when people are trying to be really positive you're like yes shut up man but I'm not playing this week and it can really suck cuz you're like man I've just given just as much as everyone else this week I just have been really unfortunate but I think constantly

01:14:31 - 01:15:42

grounding myself in where are you surrendering your identity has has been quite refreshing so you mentioned DK what are some of the tools that he's given you to deal with the head noise and to not surrender your identity to the list visualization has been a big thing I remember a key moment it was in 2022 we're out in Oakland and we're about to play of Rugby World Cup opener against the black FS who were the hosting Nation I had a really up down selection kind of season and that game I was named to

01:15:05 - 01:16:01

start it was my f my debut test start and it was the Rugby World Cup opener which was huge like for me personally I was like going through all the emotions and I'm a second roller and was calling the line outs and I remember all satting around in a circle it was like you know imagine like you're here in New Zealand you're New Zealand soil there going to be many black jerseys and it was a SE black jerseys that night at Eden Park um how how are you going to deal with these moments like you got to visualize you

01:15:34 - 01:16:29

got to prepare yourself you've got to preload your brain to be prepared for that and I just and he goes does anyone want to voice anything I was like sat there in the cor I was like yeah yeah I do I do want to say something but what do you want to say I said well I keep having this thought that how about if I call the line out and adiana who was our hooker if she can't hear me and I'm like I we fluff up a line out like how how how's it going to work I've never played one I've never played against the black

01:16:01 - 01:17:02

ferns two yet Al learn at aen Park three at a World Cup like what the hell like how how about if she can't hear me no one can hear me and then Addie just looked at me and said sry if that happens I'll just put the ball down and I'll come to in I say I can't hear your call what your call and those moments of him hypothetically proposing a situation allowing us to think what happens if I was in that moment allows you to prepare yourself for it and again it's the visualization has

01:16:32 - 01:17:24

definitely helped him playing against some of the tough teams in the world playing against England even though we haven't had a win against them playing against France where we had a historic win last year like there are so many moments that you think what would I do in that moment all that moment of greatness feel like that has definitely helped on the journey and journaling love to journal so you love journaling as well yeah so I'd like to come back journaling with visualization you know

01:16:58 - 01:18:01

we hear from some of the biggest athletes of all time like Muhammad Ali talked about this Michael Jordan talked about it Conor McGregor talked about seeing the finish of the fight before it even happened and the these moments where you're like that can't be real you know this visualization piece what can that do for an athlete and how many times have you seen that transpire in reality because you've thought about it oh it has been so crucial in my journey and I don't necessarily see the final

01:17:29 - 01:18:32

outcome what I see is all the things I've done to achieve that outcome the ways that I reinforce that individually is in this day and age a lot of our sessions are actually and games are all recorded So what I do particularly in a test week is I'll go through and cut up all of my best moments when I bank to line out that clean delivery Clean Catch off my chest a strong scrum you know a try in training or whatnot and I'll stitch them all together and just watch that repeatedly because even though I

01:18:01 - 01:18:58

can't see the final outcome what I can see is the repetition and the repetition to not faou when I'm in that moment and that's what I do and I think visualization for athletes has become a way to rebut certain moments that you may think you haven't done enough because the visualization is is proof that I can see it I believe it I can see myself in that moment I'm prepared for that moment so when in that moment I'm know exactly how I can do it yeah you're reactive in the right way because you've

01:18:29 - 01:19:26

premeditated it exactly like you've pre-loaded your brain to PR prepared for that moment and then with journaling because I think this is interesting as well you know something I've done recently which is I journal the second I wake up that's great it's weird what you write down like you just pen the paper you just start writing it like whoa this is what's going on in my head how do you look at journaling and how how has it helped you I look at journaling as the freest way to to express myself because

01:18:57 - 01:20:05

you're just right you're not thinking about what someone might think or might say it's just you and a paper and your hand just goes journaling has been such a freeing way for me to express some dark things enjoy some great things but it's free it's accessible and the release that I get from journaling is so therapeutic to me even more so than if I was to speak to some something about what I was going through I would agree it's quite cathartic because often times you'll

01:19:31 - 01:20:32

have something in your head that feels horrendous yes and then you write it down and you're like this is kind of ridiculous and small in your head it's this giant monster but on the page you're like well I know what to do about this verbal diarrhe on paper that's what journaling is verbal diarrhe on paper what what have been I guess some of the darkest moments that journaling has allowed you to remedy I think a self worth piece has probably been something that journaling has helped with yeah the self- worth p is

01:20:06 - 01:21:03

definitely a big thing and then like more personally just stuff that you go through in your personal relationships I think that's the hardest one right because the people that you have relationships with particularly those personal ones are so close and you love them dearly and and you think oh [ __ ] I think that I feel that but you put on paper and put into a little bit of perspective and you have a little bit more understanding as to why you feel that way cuz it's hard to talk about some things it's not as easy people

01:20:35 - 01:21:52

always talk about like just talk to someone which is fine you can't absolutely do that there's always a filter though always there always a filter whereas journaling there's no filter it's UVU why why do you think we filter ourselves even even with those We Trust most managing your perception bit of self-preservation definitely the thing is there are some people that we would feel absolutely no need to want to filter things with but even with some of my closest friends I realize I do filter because don't we all

01:21:13 - 01:22:09

bloody filter and again for those two things what would they think of me if I say this if I say this will it question the way that I've said or if I say this does it put into question my previous stand on it so definitely managing that perception and a bit of self-preservation like you don't want to Bear all cuz I don't want a vulnerability hangover and that's a real thing do you do you find that there's like one or two people that you you tend to go to in those moments where you I do

01:21:41 - 01:22:36

need to talk to a person and who's really been there for you throughout your career the most I think the most consistent part has definitely been my big sister Ronda um shout out to Ronda shout out to Ronda I love my [ __ ] Ronda again my parents spr when were really early and from a very young age she just had to assume the role of being a mom to me and that she has been she's been one of the most consistent figures in my life and I definitely went through a period where I absolutely hated my

01:22:09 - 01:23:13

sister like who doesn't go through that period I just think gosh You're So Vain like she was going through this period where she had like this lip piercing and was constantly taking photos of herself and I think how self-centered could you be but bless I love her she give me two beautiful nieces but she has been a rock for me she celebrates the highest of highs she's there when life doesn't necessarily unfold in a way that is happy but she's a constant in every season of life and I could not love her

01:22:41 - 01:23:54

more if I tried that's beautiful almost poetic thanks D definitely for sisters I agree from what I've heard two more questions for you what does it mean to put on the Australian Jersey and then sing The Anthem I heard this saying a few years ago and it just stuck with me since the Jersey will make you feel the happiest and it will also break your heart and the elephant in the room is at the moment I haven't been selected to toour with the wo but the one thing that keeps me on this path despite the challenges that

01:23:20 - 01:24:30

I'm currently facing is the feeling you get when you put on that Jersey it is this feeling of satisfaction a deep deep sense of Pride and it's the ultimate goal in rugby is to play for your country and I've been so fortunate to be able to do that and then thinking a moment further from that you come back out from under the tunnel you're standing side by side with 22 other girls looking back at the rest of your squad and your coaches and you can see a bit of your family or fans in this

01:23:56 - 01:25:06

the crowd like off key singing it's beautiful honestly it is it is one of the most finest finest finest moments that you can have in your career and I've been so privileged to be able to do that a few times already and God willing there'll be a few more to come in the coming years or hopefully this year who knows how it all pans out but there's no greater sense like you just think about everything the trainings the early morning the sacrifices the setbacks whatever it is and then 23 get given or

01:24:31 - 01:25:52

have earned I should say the responsibility to represent our beautiful country with a coat of arms in their chest it's beautiful so that moment and it's unfortunate where you don't make the cut there's two ways of looking at that I'd imagine one's quite dark and one's quite inviting in in that particular moment do you dig deep deeper and do you kind of create like an internal Vendetta like next time like I'm going to make the cut how how did you respond to that definitely a element of you

01:25:11 - 01:26:03

thinks I'm down but I'm not out and inviting is such a great word to use to describe it because there is a challenge you can either bow down and say whatever okay it is what it is or you can fight again and go again again and I was just speaking to one of my beautiful friends who unfortunately has Miss selection this week and she was pretty discouraged about it and I just said to her I promise you you'd much rather have missed out and be inside of that camp and get to train again more with those

01:25:37 - 01:26:38

girls than staring from the outside in which is exactly what I'm doing right now and I think that bit of perspective helped her but it also encouraged me because I think I'm down but I'm not out and everything is everything in life is a little bit fickle right who knows what happens in the next few weeks God willing everyone remains in good health and I'd love that as well but if you have so many NOS your yes has to be coming right and that's what I feel like is keeping me on this path at

01:26:07 - 01:27:06

the moment is my yes is coming it's just whether or not I'm patient enough to bide my time and keep chipping away at it even if it looks pretty Grim at the moment and I know it'll come I fully trust that it will come I believe our greatest tests become our greatest testimonies pretty day yeah you got so many great soundes today brother go let's go okay I'm going to bring up one of yours that you mentioned recently and this is a quote you share of someone else from Morgan Harper Nichols sorry

01:26:37 - 01:27:57

Morgan Harper Nichols one day you will look back and see that all along you were blooming oh you sh that on Twitter or X me God I'm profound that's a very prolific quote what does that mean to you one day we're soil right think of Our Lives as soil constantly planting seeds and we're reaping the rewards and everything that blooms will die right and I'm just such a big beli and it kind ties nicely with a passage of scripture in like Ecclesiastes chapter 3 where it talks about there's a time and season for

01:27:16 - 01:28:22

everything and I think that is such a beautiful way to continually ground yourself is that while there's a time to be happy you know that sometimes sadness can accompany happiness and like so disappointment can come along great opportunity so I think while constantly we are going through different phases of life you're just in a different part of the cycle of blooming dying to self planting a seed growing again doing it over and over and over again so we're blooming we just don't know it

01:27:50 - 01:29:06

sometimes but I feel like I needed that reminder today so thank you you're very welcome welome in conclusion what's a quote or a mindset or a mantra that you constantly go back to on your journey I don't know how relevant this is but this is the one that always comes to me more times than often is clear is kind unclear is unkind and I learned that from bne Brown she's changed my life in multiple ways that woman she doesn't know but she's my fair godmother shut up around she's she's prolific and she's a

01:28:28 - 01:29:29

beautiful author I actually found I only found out about Theodore Roosevelt's piece man in the arena by reading her book and I got to Ted on my eye my grandma's handwriting it says I am the woman in the arena and again she's taught me so much that could be one of it but going back to that clear is kind unclear is unkind in so many parts of our Lives we can be so indecisive and just be yes and people and not necessarily speak our truth but I think there's such power when you can be

01:28:59 - 01:29:54

straightforward and you can give your answer and I think regardless of what side you're sitting on with particularly if you're on the receiving end as well I think being clear is kind regardless of what's being said because you just know where you stand being unclear being vague living in that blur it's [ __ ] and I think when I try and think about how I treat people how I go about my business etc etc it's clear as kind unclear as unkind so be clear be concise and when walk away they don't leave thinking

01:29:26 - 01:30:17

about possible meanings they just know exactly where they stand with you and vice versa I would agree that's important and I know brne Brown talks about you know you have to have those hard conversations and often times in life we avoid those hard conversations because we don't want to offend that person but to be clear is to just tell how it is yeah and if that person belongs in your orbit they'll take it on the chin and they'll do they'll do well with the information versus retaliating

01:29:52 - 01:30:43

and you know anying up in an argument or what have you I think people that want to be in your orbit will fight to be in your orbit I've never heard that be in your orbit I like that I'm going to take that day you can steal that that's all yours thank you so much I just think you're such a beautiful spirit and you've got an incredible perspective on being an athlete as well as media and I think that it's so cool that you're doing both I just really want to Champion that I just think that you know

01:30:18 - 01:30:46

that's a superpower so I'm really excited to see you commentate and do commentary at the Olympics I'm going to tune in for sure and yeah you're just a beam of sunshine thank you for being here a i reive that thank you so much for having me it's been bloody Bloss B on you show