What Most People Get Wrong About Diets | Amal Wakim

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the doctor pretty much said you have two choices one take medication for the rest of your life or two do something about it and lose the weight and so of I went I went with the letter of course and that's when I lost 30 kilos Amal wiim is the co-founder and CEO of EQ a health tech company that facilitates sustainable and balanced nutrition in a personalized manner being an entrepreneur is a very lonely Journey who's a m outside of EQ cuz that's all you do that's all you know when you wake

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up in the morning what keeps you going honestly the lives that we change I love myself I'm a good role model for my children that's what gets me out of bed every single day a lot of people like would you ever start a business after EQ [ __ ] no so I've spent 250k at this point do you know what it did for my business absolutely nothing cuz you would assume that like banana bread is definitely better than a big and an asie Bowl would have less calories than a bacon M muffin from McDonald's right you think that the

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valuation of company means [ __ ] until you actually liquidate so with that being said I'm not saying don't start a business that's something that I say so many times over and over and over and over and over and over again in my personal my business life just let go and let God what does that mean to you it just means that I would like to welcome my friend Amal to the agency podcast welcome thanks Dane that was great yeah let me take that off you for my own bio moving forward you can have it we'll give you

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the sound bite it's all yours that's great great intro thank you for having welcome it's we're excited to have you here and I think you have such an interesting diverse background and you've been able to weaponize it in such a cool way with what you're doing thank you thank you well I'm glad to be here and now with the que I think the way I just want to I guess position this is that you're I guess teaching people how to diet effectively so you know a matter of fact is like

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you can have your cake and eat it too but in this case ice cream yeah absolutely we like to say that we don't diet so diet is not a a word that we use it's a a big no for us it's just teaching you how to eat for your body in a sustainable manner so whatever your health goals may be whether it be weight loss or you're looking to put on muscle or you just want to start eating healthy we educate on how to eat for your body for your goal in a way that you can sustain for the rest of your life really

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and what led you down this path like what was the I guess the narrative that pulled you into this cuz there's so many people in the health and fitness space it's hard to tell you know we have all these different experts saying all these different things it can be kind of um difficult for people to navigate like where to start so what pulled you into the space to go I want to tackle this a little differently yeah so was never supposed to be a business owner okay was never supposed to be in this position

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today but 8 years fast forward and here I am CEO and you know founder of EQ and essentially just came through my own personal Journey so I was overweight for a majority of my childhood so being a part of a Lebanese family food is at the core of everything we do but like really good I've Got Friends at are Lebanese and that's true and they're always like come over like and one serving is never enough so if you eat one serving mom's like are you okay are you are you sick so you need to go for two sometimes

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three so it was never short of amazing food growing up but unfortunately it put me in a position where I was just carrying too many kilos as a child and it wasn't until I was 16 years old where I faced a very confronting situation went to the GP just for a health check and my blood test results came back with being borderline diabetic and when you hear that as a 16-year-old you're like holy [ __ ] like that's really confronting that's really scary and the doctor pretty much said you have two choices

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one take medication for the rest of your life or two do something about it and lose the weight and so off I went I went with the letter of course and that kickstarted weight loss journey and much like you know 95% of people that are probably tuning in I've tried every single fat diet you could possibly think of shake diets cutting carbs keto paleo you know fasting whatever you know I've tried absolutely everything and anything just to lose weight and yes they were successful because I was in a calorie

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deficit but they weren't sustainable and so what that meant was I'd lose five and put 10 back on and it was just a yo-yo it was like lose the weight put it on you lose the weight put it on and then it wasn't until became educated on nutrition and understood that there's no such thing as good or bad food right no food should ever be off limits it's all about moderation it's all about understanding your body its unique requirements what is you know packed with nutrients what's a pro what's

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protein what's carbs you know what's what has good fats what's contains fiber and what does your body actually need in in order to achieve your health goals and it was at that point that I was like well if my body you know can also have a little bit of chocolate and I love it and it's something I can do for the rest of my life well why can't I have chocolate every day in moderation and so I started to implement a very balanced approach to nutrition and that's when I lost 30 kilos and so the biggest success

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in my entire Journey wasn't about losing the weight it's been sustaining it or maintaining my my 30 kilo weight loss for over 10 years and so when I had experienced that on my own I was like well I want to help other people do it because when you embark on such a a huge transformation like mentally and physically you change as a person completely and you just start to feel good everything that you do is so different you're happier you're lighter you're Freer and I wanted to support my

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friends and family to be able to do the same and then so my co-founder at the time and I we started doing this on the side just you know servicing people for free helping them with their body Transformations and then they'd lose 10 kilos 20 kilos 30 kilos they'd tell their friends about it and then it was like okay we need to start charging for this service because it's taking up a lot of our time and that's how the business came about that's powerful one thing that you said there I really loved

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was that rather than looking at it as losing weight you were looking at it as how do I moderate or maintain a certain weight yeah that's a different take and I think would you say that the the public perception around weight loss and quote unquote diet is wrong I absolutely and it's crazy because in my world I see a lot of people eating balanced food right and I see you know moderation and I see people enjoying you know Pizza and Pasta amongst like their veggies and lean protein in my world

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because that's what I'm exposed to CU that's the impact that I've had but as soon as I start to have conversations outside of my bubble it just it just surprises me that people still think they need to starve themselves or restrict themselves in order to lose weight and that's just my job not done to know that people are still resorting to like you know these quick fixes and not eating right and suppressing their trying to suppress their appetite and restrict and no bread and no chocolate

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and no wine I'm just like I have my job is not done here on this world and it's not until the the world knows about balanced nutrition that I feel like I can be like okay I did it I'm I can be happy now do you think there's been a recent shift in in kind of the Z guys of like human health yeah I think that there is a movement towards more sustainability in our approach but also longevity so just looking at like bio like just biohacking biomarkers really trying to become more scientific with

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our approach which is what we do as a business right but in all elements sleep Fitness weightlifting nutrition and so on however when you look at the weight loss industry and you put a lens on that we are still so far behind like so far behind if you ask any person on the street hey how do you lose 5 kilos like what would you do to lose 5 kilos they'd say well I'd cut out carbs or I'd cut out chocolate or whatever but what science is supporting that why aren't you telling me to be in a calorie

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deficit and to enjoy the food that I love in moderation so I can sustain my weight loss so can you really break down calorie deficit because I I'm hearing a lot of different approaches to this and what it means and how people extrapolate that into content and I think you know classic cases PT you know wants to build a social media profile they just start talking about calories and then you're like what information should I should or should I not listen to is there a frame of reference that you use or somewhere I

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can go to like really understand what you mean by that yeah I'll put it in simple terms right so we essentially burn a number of calories so energy per day and it can really range based on our activity for the day so we have something which is called a BMR which is where if we were to lay in bed all day and do do absolutely nothing that's how many calories our body would burn you're going to burn way less calories absolutely but you still are burning something body digesting Brea dig

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digestion organs are functioning and you know whatever right so let's say my my BMI is400 calories and then add on all of my you know activity my walking my exercise my unintentional activity walking up the stairs and so on may take my uh total daily energy expenditure to 2,100 or 2200 whatever it may be in order for me to lose weight I need to be under my total amount of calories that my body is burning I need to be eating less calories than my output it's as simple as that right however when it

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comes to body composition when it comes to you know satiety and fullness and you know muscle mass and so on that's when your macronutrients are super important so people like oh yeah I'll eat you know 2,000 calories of just McDonald's like well no firstly your relationship with food is not great and two you're going to lose a lot of muscle mass so it's finding that balance so I like to follow an 8020 approach 80% Whole Foods and 20% Soul Foods so for the majority of your day or your week however you want to do

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your 8020 you eat all of your nutrient dense foods your high protein your veggies and then you can have your chocolate bar or your glass of wine or your pizza or your pasta whatever your soul food really is I I like the perspective around trying to maintain versus trying to do this rapid diet over duration like you see these 60-day 90-day challenges but you're seeing that it's more healthy to just look at your uh life in moderation and go what's sustainable over a long period yeah absolutely I actually saw a quote the

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other day and it was like you don't need 75 hard you need consistency and I was like like repost because that is so accurate like people think oh in order for me to achieve my goals I need to do the extreme it's like no you just just need to do like just instead of drinking you know a chocolate milkshake swap it out for skin milk instead of having a full sugar Coke have a Coke Zero instead of having the skin on your barbecue chicken just have the chicken breast you're still enjoying all

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the food that you love but you're just making smart swaps you don't need to go and exercise twice a day every day drink 3.8 lers of water and you know not have any treats or anything in order for you to achieve your health goals just show up every single day and make improvements every day consistency consistency and sustainability yeah I remember I read a quote from Darren Hardy and he said that you know momentum is incredibly difficult to get MH but losing it is very easy and I think people might jump to the extreme I

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imagine because they're trying to jolt the momentum but you're saying that there's probably a more healthy approach which is like we don't have to go to the extreme we can just start by introducing small doses of consistency and then ramping it up from there that's how I understand understanding Q works is that right yeah absolutely it's you know for us how we work is we understand what you love and what your lifestyle is like and then we make those smart swaps and help make better decisions throughout your

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day without having to do a complete lifestyle overhaul yeah it's like saying to it's like someone saying to us hey I eat chocolate every night uh we wouldn't just go and remove that chocolate we just be like okay well let's give you a treat size of that chocolate yeah so that you still feel satisfied because if you have a treat sized chocolate every day you're not going to binge on the weekend but if we take that chocolate bar away you're going to eat 20 of them on the weekend because you're like well

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I can only have it now that's what my daily does man you know yeah like that little treat after dinner or what have you exactly so if you think back to the origins of The Branding and I want to come back to consistency but just to shift gears here the origins of the weight loss Journey that you had that seemed to very much validate like hey I really want to give this to other people and I think my favorite narrative is always when someone had a self-discovery and then they're like I got to share

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this so how did it transform from like you doing this for yourself to going I really want to find a format to monetize cuz it's a very different thing to go this helped me to now it's helping others to let's build a business out of this but I want to understand that trans that transcendency into business like what was that for you yeah so it was after helping a few friends and family just no charge it was like Hey we've lost weight Let's help you out that they then started to refer people and we're

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like okay wow we need to start charging about this and I remember our very first customer this was back well before we had any payment provider everything was done face to face we took cash payments like it was like you know very back in the day and we sat down with him we were um situated on the top of ASN Miranda at the time and he came in for a consult and he's like okay I'd love to do it let me go get money out of the ATM for you and my co-founder was like we can't accept his money I feel and I'm like

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well we need to start a business out of this like we can't just keep giving people our time because you know at the time we were both working for Google full-time we were competing at as well so we were training a lot and then this was another thing we added in the mix plus studying we were studying full-time at Uni and so I was like well if we're serious about this and we can see the potential let's turn this into a business and let's help people we can do this at scale and so yeah it was really

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just validating it which back then you know I didn't realize was products Market fit so it was validating it doing it in the leanest way possible inefficient cuz it was like very manual and then when we started to see that demand we started to monetize and then after monetizing we took the money that we had made from the business and turned it into a health tech company so it's fully automated now so let's go back to the V1 yeah was this very much you I guess raising Capital um and also

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simultaneously producing personal branding content like how did you get traction to get this thing to get started yeah good question so we actually had not um raised any capital for the business and we completely bootstrapped for the first eight years so essentially how the business really gained traction was we jumped on social media um very early on when Instagram was like you know a hot thing before anyone was online and we just started to share educational content and so we'd show like calorie comparisons of like a

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Big Mac versus banana bread showing a Big Mac has less calories and you know an asai Bowl versus a bacon and egg muffin showing a bacon and egg muffin has less calories you would assume that like banana bread is definitely better than a big man an siie Bowl would have less calories than a bacon EG muffin from McDonald's right you think that we're not talking about nutrient density right we're just talking purely calories and so we started to post all of these educational um photos that you know back

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back then it was way before Photoshop we used to buy the food and put it on the kitchen counter and take a photo and all this like crazy stuff and it just completely took off people were sharing liking the media picked up on it and so for us for the first 5 years of running the business we actually didn't invest a single Dollar in into marketing everything was done organically so we really leveraged our organic channels but we did it right and we did it so well and that's because we knew our

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audience being going through a journey on your own like the self-discovery you know who you're talking to so for me I knew exactly who I was talking to because I was once in that position and so I could resignate with the audience and that's why a lot of the content went so well cuz it was like well I wish I knew this I want to touch on that cuz a lot of people don't get this and they think that they have to make content that's like a bat over the head of please buy my [ __ ] please don't do that

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right so how how do you teach people in your team or around you or those that want to emulate what you're doing that you have to get away from the pitch and you have to understand how I give intrinsic value to the viewer but like unpack that for me like how do you see it how do you break it down how do you make sure you don't get into pitch territory and you're genuinely building a fan base firstly question whether your product is solving a problem right because that's really important and when

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we so we've just moved into supplementation right and when we look at our product road map you know I ask the question well what is this actually solving you know why like what is our what is our point of difference and what is this actually solving like why would someone actually take this tell me Pitch it to me tell me why because I need to I want you to solve my problem what were some of the things you were like yeah yeah maybe not Maybe not maybe not that one um I think when we're looking at our

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like collagen and our greens um when we're looking at what kind of ingredients we wanted in our product base even when we looked at our protein powder and what type of protein we wanted to use what was the I guess our unique selling proposition it's like well why us there's a million other protein so in the market like why us um and just like a fun fact we've spent $ Zer on our supplement arm when it comes to marketing so we've like we've invested nothing into marketing with our

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supplement arm and it's just completely taken off and I can touch on that a little bit later and why but you know it's just asking well what problem are we solving for the consumer like who is the consumer and what problem are we solving but the most important which I don't think we do well as a a business today particularly for our supplement arm is you need to bring people on the journey you can't just jump on Instagram and say hi guys I've just launched protein powder and um here you go this

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is it's got 30 g of protein per serve and 120 calories and it's way Protein Isolate and it's good because of XY it tastes great scroll scroll cool no one gives a [ __ ] you need to bring people on the journey one of my best performing posts for our supplement arm was my video where I I did like a point of view you couldn't find a protein powder you liked so you made your own and it showed them the Journey of developing the protein powder wow okay so you went the other way inverted it let me show you

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what this let me show you how we made this me taste testing me showing because people buy into the journey they don't buy into the product why is that it's just an emotional connection Ryan because when you bring someone along on the journey they become invested they're like oh yeah I remember when she was tasting the vanilla and then she made these changes or I remember when she was opening up the package and she asked me for feedback and whatever and I I actually pressed on the poll like I said

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use the pink package or use the green package or whatever they become invested in the journey they don't people don't buy products anymore they buy products because of people people and because of the journey and being invested in that emotionally so you're saying you have to look much deeper than okay you're saying you got to know what the problem is yeah within that how do you link problem back to narrative which is what you're talking about now like you got to take them on the journey so how do you

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connect okay we have this problem this is our narrative how do we bring those two together so essentially let's go back to that piece of content that I put up about the flavor so the reason why we started protein powder was because we couldn't find a protein powder that we truly loved as a brand one that we could really recommend to our customers where we're like yeah you know they would ask what protein powder would you recommend there was none that we could say we love this this is the one that we think you

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should have and it was purely based on flavor and just ingredients and so we then ended up like when we look at the content that was created it was all about solving that problem on Flavor so we knew our point of difference was flavor and that's the problem that we were solving we're not it wasn't Innovative we weren't building a a new protein that doesn't exist it's a WPI there's a million of them but what we differentiate on his flavor and so we brought that we brought them along that

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journey to taste testing the different flavors and why we got to where we are today and so when they saw that they're like well I trust that it's going to taste good because this has been 12 months in the making she's shown every facial expression when she taste tests and she cooks really good recipes so I know she's going to have good brething powder so that's why it went really well okay and now you said that you had a fiveyear Sprint where you were building Revenue based on the runway of just

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organic content which is ludicrous for so many people because they're like how how do you make that happen and you're saying that you do that through genuinely telling narratives genuinely linking the problem to the viewer and how they can relate to you and your stories behind the scenes how how would you be consistent with that like how do you consistently maintain high quality content that the viewers can consistently engage with because so many people get scared that they only have one or two tricks then what how do you

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make sure you're constantly on The Cutting Edge of new material and new narratives and new content I think you need to find your Niche right I think trying everything under the sun is just pointless and I think that you'll find that you won't really get that far by trying to explore too many ideas so one who is your audience and why are they following you so for me personally people follow me because of my recipes and my day in a like day on a plate they just like to know what I eat right and

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so it's like okay well I know that so what I'm going to create is recipes and a on my plate to show them anything to do with food and then from there you need to understand that not every piece of content is going to pop off you have to accept that that some that you invest so much time into thinking it's the best piece of content like [ __ ] yeah I know this is going to go crazy it's going to go viral 10 views right 10 views but then the one that you hate and you're like I'm not posting that [ __ ] gets 10

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million I've had that time and time again where you're just like this is going to win this is absolutely going to crush it Fizzles yeah Fizzles I look funny in this video goes crazy yeah exactly and so it's consistency above all right just like anything in your life it's having that content schedule it's giving yourself time to film the content being ahead and just posting it just posting it and then just iterating learn look at your analytics why do you think that one went better than the

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other one is it you know the hook that you used is it you know your voice over is it this is it that why is it how many saves did you get how many shares did you get you know how many comments did you get and so then using the analy to then build out your content schedule which is like really important but just don't be deflated because like you know sometimes I put things up [ __ ] waste of time like it because like my content will usually get over 100K per reel and then I post like this is my personal

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account and then I post something gets like 50 and I'm just like oh it's deflating right but I need like you need to continually show up and then when you show up on that 10th time you'll pop the million and then that million will get you an extra 10,000 followers and then maybe in your 10th time from there you'll get another 10,000 if you do that once per month where you get a piece of content that goes viral by the end of the year and 100K followers it's like the stock market it's up it's down it's

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a bull market it's a bare Market you just have to show up and be consistent no matter what yeah and just post content that brings value to people's lives like ask yourself why is someone watching this like why what do they actually getting out of this video or this static or this Carousel or whatever you're posting just ask like what are what are what benefit do they get from engaging with my content and if you're too saly they're just going to keep scrolling they want to see something

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that's natural something that they can relate to something that's emotional so always start with that hook you know did you know or you know point of view or you know 150 calories for a chocolate brownie CU that's what gets people they're like chocolate brownie I love that and I can be healthy well I'm going to keep watching so yeah you really need to understand your audience and what what they want to learn and what the value you can provide is to them interesting I want to share a stat with

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you and I want to link it back to content and figure out how we can RI on this so according to statista revenue in the digital Fitness and well-being Market is projected to reach 8659 million in 2025 in Australia alone wow why do you think the Australian Market resonates with health and well-being apps um and and why do you think this is red hot in our Market yeah I think the in the Australian Market I'm just going to touch on Fitness because I think that statistic is very Fitness focused I think when you look at diet

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culture here I think the first thing that someone thinks is I need to go to the gym not I need to fix my diet or you know my nutrition and so I think in Australia we're very heavily focused on exercise above all which is great because you know there are so many benefits to exercise your mental health you know your your serotonin and and whatever right and then the physical and you know longevity in your life and blah blah blah so I I genuinely think it's because in our culture we have learned

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to appreciate exercise and exercise to be that number one thing that we resort to when it comes to any health goal but also for mental health as well so I can see why that's trending we also have a lot of um influences in this space as well when it comes to health and fitness so online you know when you look at the maybe it's just me my Discovery page but every second person is like a a health and fitness Enthusiast right so many right like so many people that are like I'm in the middle of getting my um you

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know science degree or what have you and then they're out there preaching to the masses it could also be the generation we're in right like as we start to get older you you see you start to understand the importance of Health the importance of exercise and you're just like yeah well I'm in my 30s now things don't work the same way that they work I fell over the other day when I was in Jervis Bay and I got up like oh my hip and I'm just like I need to go back to waight you know so like I think that

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also it comes down to just the generation and like you know us just being more focused on Health in general but I just think Australia as a culture um we prioritize exercise which is is really really nice I think it's definitely getting younger by by how it appears to be really tracking because I remember that you know growing up I'd watch my parents they'd be in their mid 40s and they would say oh my back hurts and then just watching them go ah it'll be right and like doing nothing about it

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seemed to be the status quo whereas now people are very much like no this has to be dealt with absolutely you know I'm in my mid-30s now and I'm starting to notice like my energy levels are decreasing and I'm not eating the gym like I used to and I'm like I got to get back in the gym I got to eat better and it's now no longer I'd like to do that it's a a must for my kids you know one thing that I've actually accepted which I think has been the best piece of advice that anyone has given me I've

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stopped comparing myself to my 20s because I I always had this like right yeah like well I was 9% body fat and I went to the gym seven days a week and blah blah blah right a good week for me is 3 days exercise I walk a lot but like actual workout 3day is like a good week for me and I always like I'm like I feel so bad like how am I not doing seven days like I used to but it's like well you're in a different season of your life and that's okay and it's like stop comparing to who you were in

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your 20s and just build a a schedule and a lifestyle that suits where you are today and if that means 3 days a week then it's three days a week and that's okay yeah it's it's a healthy way to look at it especially when people start having children and running businesses and so on but you're saying don't lose sight of the maintenance of your health wellbe absolutely do never health is wealth if you don't have your health you have nothing else so coming back to Trends and consistency um like I can

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imagine that the diet era is coming to an end or is that Trend still very much um tracking just in a different way I think when you look at the weight loss industry I think what's coming up now as Solutions like medication for Solutions right oh heaps of that right OIC and what's the other one just gp1 medications right in general there's so manyar yeah so I don't think that that like era is coming to an end I think that people just finding other ways to lose the weight which is a concern

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because they're not addressing the mindset I think gop1 medication is a a great Catalyst when it comes to those that really need it right when you are at this point in your life you're just like I don't know what to do I can't start I'm it's so far gone I need that support I need that Kickstart to get me going it's great but you're not addressing your eating behaviors you're not actually fixing the problem that got you there in the first place so it's like well

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glp1 medication is great but you need to pair it with good nutrition and good exercise so I actually think when we look at the dieting you know culture or like just the industry I don't think it's getting any better I think there's just you know solutions that are coming up that are just you know more scientifically Advanced that are not addressing the mindset which is where it all starts yo my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding I had to figure out a way to do branding

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every single day so I branded myself then I started my agency rival and hir a team of branding Mavericks hellbent on creating Brands so good that they'll make you a competition their pants so here's the thing you want your brand to go viral and rival makes Brands go viral that's why we're offering you a free 30-minute branding session to get an expert's opinion if you don't believe me the proof is in the pudding here's what clients have to say about rival rival is trusted by Brands like

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nutrition Warehouse light my bricks and vom me so if you want to absolutely smoke the competition and make your brand go viral hit the link below and book in your free 30-minute branding session I I was having I'm just linking something in my mind here I was having a really great conversation with my business Mentor this morning and he was explaining to me that the unconscious mind and the conscious mind have this relationship to and fro and typically the conscious mind in business might be

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like we've got to get the bills paid we got to get customers it's very much like logically focused on like task oriented stuff whereas the unconscious mind is a lot more creative than that it's high a purpose it's a reason I'm in this industry why I'm doing this in the first place anyways to Circle back to it one of the only things that humans can do to that controls the link between conscious and subconscious mind is breathing and this is why a lot of people use breathing Tech techniques to meditate

00:31:30 - 00:32:21

because it's the only thing that you can consciously control that's also subconscious if you're not thinking about your breathing you're doing it naturally anyways your unconscious kicks in it starts doing it anyways would you put food in the same category where it's seemingly unconscious but we can become very conscious about it absolutely I think that when people binge eat it's completely unconscious they're not aware that they're doing it at the time you know they eat one thing then they eat

00:31:55 - 00:32:39

the other and the packet of chips are gone and the packet of Tim's gone now the ice cream's gone and this and they've just gone to macers and ordered three burgers it's and then it's not until it's all done they're like [ __ ] what did I just do I'm going to have to do excessive cardio and fast for the next three days yeah it's like when you get tim tams you have that phrase in your head like can't just have one um so so do you think that brands are playing

00:32:17 - 00:33:18

on this and that are you know unfortunately leveraging people into these sales flows or retail pipelines or whatever it is to buy these products to consume them and do you think this is has been happening for a long time oh yeah absolutely that's you know great marketing right where you're essentially able to convince someone to purchase product without even thinking twice about it so yeah it's something that has existed for a very long time do you think so yeah there's a famous quote

00:32:47 - 00:33:38

that um kind of leaked from from one of the CEOs of combank and he did a financial review and something leaked into the document where he basically said if we can get them to buy 2.7 products we own them for life and it got into the document he got a bit of heat from it but what's interesting here is is brands are trying to sell cross sell and they're trying to Ploy on your biggest problem yeah if it can sell you on your biggest problem get you into a system you'll just keep buying it yeah

00:33:13 - 00:34:08

absolutely how much do you think influencers are misleading their audiences based on selfish needs versus like genuinely giving the market what they really need I think it's um per influencer basis right I think you can find influencers out there that extremely genuine and you can tell that they won't recommend products unless they truly believe in them which I love but then there are others that would do anything and everything to get the next contract or next deal and like you know one week they're posting a particular

00:33:41 - 00:34:36

skincare and the next week they're recommending another and you're like you'd actually posted another brand last week and you said that that was your Holy Grail and now you're posting another one so it it's it like an influencer by influence basis but I think the influencer market is nothing like what it used to be like people just people just know people know they're getting paid people know it's an ad you know it doesn't come across as genuine anymore so they're not it's

00:34:08 - 00:35:00

almost like the jigs up we know what you're doing we know you're plug in products we know sponsors and we know they're paying you 10K for that but you do you know the voice that has the most impact are the people that you follow in your circle so for example you might be following you know 10 influencers that you just love and then you've got you know your friends and family you've got 10 influencers and they're posting this skincare product and you're like oh yeah cool I've seen that every other

00:34:33 - 00:35:22

influencer got a PR box and whatever but then you see your friend Sally and she's just posted a cleanser and she's like oh my God I love it I've had acne for so long and I I just like I love this what do you think you're buying yeah you're like I know Sally she's a really great person I'm just going to buy it Sally's not getting paid for this and she's sharing it because she genuinely thinks it's a good product well thanks Sally I'm just about to buy that product now

00:34:58 - 00:35:53

give me a discount code and you can make coms right what else are you looking at to bring into the advertising space into the content space other ways you can deploy bringing a community in to the content creation yeah Community is like a really big one for us um so focusing heavily on that and having them the face of the brand and because there people resonate with people that they can relate to right so they see someone that has been on the same Journey as them or same Walk of Life and they're like yeah

00:35:26 - 00:36:19

well she's lost 10 kilos and I can lose 10 kilos it's realistic so I'm not looking at the next you know fitness model on Instagram and saying I want to look like her I'm just looking at the mom that's lost 10 kilos that is achievable so bringing the community to the Forefront which is really important I think the next is really just leveraging you know one of the biggest pieces of content for our business which is recipes and where so it's like you know we've done a lot of experiments

00:35:52 - 00:37:02

over the last year around you know how effective are recipes for Leen and how much does that actually drive to the business so just to put into perspective I like my personal account has 50,000 followers on Instagram right so my personal account is a lot smaller than the business account and I posted a a video of I think it was like a pizza tray high protein like whatever and within 24 hours we had 20,000 unique impressions on our website from that one video that I posted for zero marketing dollars and in that video you were just

00:36:27 - 00:37:24

sharing a recipe shared recipe you weren't like find out more on www. I shared the recipe and I said Link in BIO and it took them to my Comey which is you know your like it's like a link tree and that has all of my recipes they click the recipe gets directed to our like the blog of our website very clever so 20,000 so it's like okay well we've just brought 20,000 onto the website we can retarget and whatever but it's like well how do we get them then how do we show the value in our product

00:36:56 - 00:37:42

so why are they coming to look at the recipe is it just they do they just want recipes or do they want optimization in their health do they want more healthy recipes what is it and then how do we convert them from looking at that recipe and so that's what we're currently working on now okay so then when you look at this data of these 20,000 people coming through this portal what are the insights you're trying to pick up on to give you a gauge on this is why they're here so it's it's a lot harder because

00:37:19 - 00:38:11

right now we're not really prompting them to move on from that page it's like it's on our website so of course they're going to like maybe click around so we look at like the heat map have a look at where they're actually interacting with how long they on the website for how many how many of them are actually unique and so on where are they coming from they're coming from my Comey you know where is it Tik Tok is it Instagram because there's both right and then from there the next is to trial a conversion

00:37:45 - 00:38:40

piece okay so you've got a lot of quantitative data but not a lot of qualitative data around like what like what the specificity around the search is yeah yeah so we'll experiment now so the next thing for us is adding in like a trial period so it's like hey hey want to see the rest of this recipe well s see it on the app or you know want to see more of this recipe well he's 10 days free or whatever it may be right and so then what will be make like what will mean the most to us is okay so they

00:38:12 - 00:39:02

look at the recipe they sign how many of them looking at the recipe then go on to the app to view the recipe or more on the free trial if not then what are the things that we need to change to get them on the product because it's like one thing to have you know nearly half million followers on Instagram but it's another to have you know paying customers so it's like how do you create a good content strategy but how do you turn them into paid customers which is you know really hard for Brands to do so

00:38:37 - 00:39:35

it's like what's the point of having all these followers if they're not paying you at the end of the day you're investing heavily into a Content strategy well how effective how effective is your organic channels like if you're just getting everyone through paid well your organic like strategy doing well question mark question mark yeah okay so let's just say you you have volume of attention and you're shifting traffic into different places how how do you see a framework or a process or or

00:39:06 - 00:39:56

or go-to maneuver uh on how to start monetizing said attention yeah so I think that firstly it's like what are people clicking into so what is the value that you're actually adding um I think that when it comes to socials and your organic channels you want to give them um enough education for them to want more so you don't want to give them everything and so what we previously did was we used to put recipes and captions and it's great it's great for engagement cuz a lot of people will sa right or

00:39:32 - 00:40:14

share with their friends but we're like well we're not capturing them we're not capturing any data about them that's not great like how do we actually monetize if we don't know who this person is because we don't own any of the data on Instagram so it's like well how do we get them off Instagram onto one of our platforms you're just looking at numbers but you're like I don't know what their I guess the motive is the behavior what they're seeking what's the point of

00:39:53 - 00:40:43

getting a million views if I don't know if I from that million views I can't get anything out of it right right and so you look at like okay well why are they watching it they're watching it for the recipe well I'll give them the recipe as video content but if they want the written recipe I'll link them to my website so then they go on to your website and then they may see you know this can be for you know whatever industry they may then say well this person is giving me even more value if I

00:40:18 - 00:41:03

sign up to their program but they're giving me free access to it so then it doesn't it's not a marketing lead anymore it's a product lead you're giving more value and then you're creating an opportunity to do more data capture where and we've done this as well where we give away a tremendous amount of content we give away a free downloadable there's a short form they have to fill out to get a better understanding of like do they own a business where do they live what are

00:40:40 - 00:41:28

they kind of trying to do to better predicate like hey how how can we better support these people from a business pers perspective absolutely and it has to come from a pure heart of like genuinely you just want to give you some cool stuff build Brands bu good impressions in the Market's mind but at the same time a few people certainly want to work with us yeah now zooming back up to let's just say 30,000 ft looking down at The Branding um because I understand what's happening with your

00:41:04 - 00:42:09

um community and how you really want to bring them to the Limelight and all the rest of it but let's look under the hood at the brands you recently did a Rebrand and I understand potentially why around the name and why that's changed but the brand was called equation uh and it was founded in 2015 and after eight years of operating you've decided to do a Rebrand but why I think for us you know there were two reasons why we did the Rebrand the first is because as we move into the International Space and we start to see

00:41:36 - 00:42:33

accelerated growth it's like well who is our brand and does it resonate with who we are today because when you brand yourself as a company when you first start it may align with who you are then but when we look at where we are today did equalution as a brand really represent who we are and it just didn't and we wanted to really cut out the confusion and we really wanted to cut out the mistakes and we wanted to cut out the inability to type the name right cuz that's really important people

00:42:06 - 00:42:52

underestimate well if they can't spell your name and how they going to find you it's a big one we we do a lot of naming here and I think um I even got it incorrect just a second ago equalution or equation I was going to say reason why reason one yeah prime example because I was reading this earlier I'm like make sure you say it right Dan and I even got it wrong so equalution and and it's like how do I spell that there's an probably eight or nine different ways you could potentially

00:42:28 - 00:43:28

spell it imagine having a conversation right word of mouth is so important and so say you lose 10 kilos and your mom is like or your friend is like how'd you lose 10 kilos oh well I was on this program and it's called ah equalution equation they're not going to remember how you spell it uh I'll text you later text lat never text whereas it's like well how' you lose oh it's on this brand called EQ EQ yeah just search them you find want better mouth feel better refer ability just make it way easier for

00:42:58 - 00:44:02

people absolutely so that was really important we wanted a brand refresh I think the colors as well didn't really resonate with who we were anymore so we wanted to bring greens and balance and fresh and health Into The Branding and just become more gender neutral because the the Reds and the creams were very much you know in line with just feminine energy which which is fine you know we're 95% of our clientele is female but as we enter new markets and a lot of our growth PL um involved just that diversity in

00:43:30 - 00:44:26

genders and so we just didn't want to exclude the male Market you know particularly if there's like a significant growth opportunity in the future so that was really important um and then the second reason why we did this was because we um said goodbye to a co-founder and the timing of the Rebrand came after her exit as well so it was like a new start for the business as well which was really nice do you find it like that also impacted the internal team behind the brands with the Rebrand

00:43:58 - 00:44:51

yeah yeah I think everyone just loved it it just I think it's like a new start a new start without having a new start however we underestimated the impact a Rebrand can have were you nervous were you like um cuz sometimes people have and I have a joke for this they think that a Rebrand is like their Brand's going to turn into a werewolf and scare their customers away and everyone's going to be like haaz like what's going on Everything's changed we're out of here like were

00:44:25 - 00:45:31

their fears and concerns coming into this so so there's two elements right there's your existing customers and then there's your um online presence so our existing customers we did a complete reskin of the arm but also we changed the full functionality and so when we put out a survey it was quite interesting those that were on the old old equalution version didn't like the changes it was hard ited it was hard every single person that came on after the Rebrand that didn't know equalution

00:44:57 - 00:46:00

loved the new program right so we all like well what do we do because the ogs aren't loving it CU it's not a seamless right we we did learn a lot with the with the product but the new ones absolutely love it because there so much more value so that was a big one it was less about The Branding but it was more so about how we changed the actual product the second is those that are not c those that are not customers yet we took a massive hit when it came to domain Authority like massive like we

00:45:28 - 00:46:27

did not estimate what it was going to do for website Impressions SEO like even like domain Authority like our clavia is like you can't send at full capacity full capacity like we're looking in hundreds of thousands of emails we can't send that anymore yeah you know our campaigns dropped to 20,000 emails that is nothing we couldn't send at full capacity anymore because we everything was Landing into spam because we hadn't built up our domain authority to to warm up our audience again that's terrifying

00:45:58 - 00:46:54

so when you changed the name from equalution to EQ we changed our domain you changed your domain Authority which meant that Google looked at you as a brand new entity and it's like you can't just steal these 140,000 emails from this previous company that sucks it hurt like it really really hurt and we didn't estimate what that could have done to but no one forecasted that for you no one sat down and was like we knew that it would impact SEO we knew that web Impressions would fall short we knew

00:46:25 - 00:47:23

that would happen we just didn't think about domain we like we knew it was going to take a hit but we didn't think it was going to take that much of a hit right so that was hard but we're back to normal thankfully it took month how did that take months yeah months to get back to normal to get full um full send out business owners if you're stuck using one platform for every project you're probably stuck in a growth bottleneck more clients means more highs which just adds noise and cuts into profits to

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00:47:58 - 00:48:55

end up in spam all the time um in that moment you probably would have regretted it no never really so you were like no we're all in we're all in why because it's a part of the journey I think that what people need to understand in your business journe it's never going to be like this it's going to be like this sometimes you've got to take a little dip to see a higher Spike and so it was like okay we can see that we're making progress we're not where we were but it's improving and so like we're in

00:48:27 - 00:49:27

January now it's one of our best months and it's like all the momentum's there again you know everything's trending in the right direction and I think that if you sit here and you regret a decision you're just like you get no value out of it and I think you know it's it's never it's never a a loss it's a learning so next time if I was ever to Rebrand I'd be sure make sure that you know I just make sure that I don't change my domain or you know just do

00:48:57 - 00:49:48

things a little bit differently okay but like even in the early stages of like oh we made a mistake here we underestimated the impact or implication of not having domain Authority all the rest of it you were still like no all in all in you just you just need to back yourself you absolutely need to back yourself 100% even like my head of marketing was never like [ __ ] we should have done this he was like it's fine we're going to get out of it like if we keep tracking the way that we're tracking we'll be out of

00:49:23 - 00:50:10

this in two months yeah that person's a gangster keep that person but it's like you know after after the two months what's that result and then you just see that momentum and momentum and then we're eventually at this spot that the business hasn't been because of this yeah a lot of people get stuck in the shortterm like oh my God it's going to be shortterm pain if we make any changes and people will fix it on like we can't change our color we can't change our logo we can't change our name the name

00:49:46 - 00:50:43

is a big one um what's your what's your advice to people that are like I'm not sure it's going to it's going to create immediate pain but maybe a longtail reward I think that you need to stop worrying about short-term gratification in business and in business full stop and it's hard because you know in my position a CEO you're not working on the every day and like for me I want that itch I want that immediate win but my wins don't come my wins take 3 years you know I just exited my

00:50:15 - 00:51:04

co-founder and that was a threeyear journey yeah and that was one of the biggest projects that I ever worked on right wow and so that I was not getting any little wins throughout my day and that's hard because you know an entrepreneur and you know someone that's just like full of energy you're just like I I just want to see that Spike but you can't and there were so many times where like I just want to give in I just want to give in I just want to give in but you just can't in order for your

00:50:39 - 00:51:43

business to really grow you need to take those hits and that's okay but I also want to say when it comes to Rebrand I'm not sure if you agree a Rebrand is going to do nothing for your business like my experience with this many years ago so we've actually like rebranded um EQ a few times in terms of color look and feel not the name so equal to EQ was the only time but look and feel reskin of app and so on we worked with a branding agency in uh Canada which was one of the best in the world and you'll die the

00:51:11 - 00:52:07

uiux no engineering just the look and feel of the platform cost me 200k right just reskin 200k look and feel that wasn't even branding brand guidelines were about 50k and then the looking feel was 200k so I've spent 250k at this point and I hadn't even built it into the app and then we built it into the app and God that would have costed me a couple hundred K more and we thought I'll turn it on and we're just going to go from here to here right we're going to get tens of thousands overnight

00:51:39 - 00:52:47

immediate success let's go do you know what it did for my business absolutely nothing yeah so what you like and this is like my biggest piece of advice what you're probably stressing about is going to have zero impact like just and and you know a Rebrand of that kind unless you're like a really big business that has existed and has so much history in the name and the brand and the colors and whatever people won't care yeah you so you spot on because I think what people have the nature to look at a

00:52:13 - 00:53:15

Rebrand ads as like oh we're going to turn this online done deal but for me branding is it's a long journey it takes years to build a Brands it takes $5 million to build a brand on average that's that's what it is and so that's you know for me when we were looking at renaming EQ there were so many other names that came to mind where it actually wasn't anything to do with e Coalition it was like random names and the one thing that came to mind and the reason why we stuck with a shorter

00:52:44 - 00:53:47

version of who we were to stay you know I guess um very close to the existing brand because of the familiarity of it uh was the $5 million it cost to build a brand and to have to rebuild a brand is a lot of money and I was just like I'm not I'm not willing and wanting to do that it's just not one thing that I want to add to my list right now and so we just kept it to what we thought was really familiar and just a shortened easier and EQ represents balance right so it just it all made sense it was like

00:53:16 - 00:54:06

well we're not equalution anymore let's do our own transformation cut off all the EX's letters like you cut off the excess w't and now we're EQ it's a great metaphor yeah I think you you touched on some really good points I think often times that yeah people have this okay we've got a Rebrand immediate success not the case it's it's like um buying a new car but it's not on the track yet just because you've reskinned the vehicle doesn't mean the vehicle's any

00:53:41 - 00:54:34

better it's like what you do with it and The Impressions it creates over time and and people don't realize that building brand Equity takes years yeah and and the way I understand it is if like if you look at like sales marketing and branding I like to break it down like this if you look at a business well what is the business it's profit and loss statements it's cash flow in the door or out uh and it's also like your balance sheet like what assets do we have I think if you look at marketing marketing

00:54:07 - 00:54:57

really closely correlates to pnls like what's our profit and loss how do we dictate and make sure that that's healthier sales hey guys go out there and get some freaking cash flow this month cash flow is your job and then when it comes to The Branding piece I always like to put branding on the balance sheet yeah so if you did an uh an exit and you don't have a brand let's say your Brand's not super strong you might do an exit for 2.7x what the business's rev that year is but if you

00:54:32 - 00:55:28

have a brand and it's well established in the market it's been around for five or six years people really like the brands then you can exit for an 8 to 20x the business rev and I think the Rebrand is or you know anything that comes to branding is a business decision and it's what you do with it which is you know so accurate because you know I was once that person that thought I'd just turned it on and that's going to make me millions of more right but it made me zero more dollars

00:55:00 - 00:55:46

and I could have done it for 1 of the cost and I would have gotten the same result but it was what we did with the assets and The Branding or the brand that then brought the value into the company and people realize branding in the category of like it's an asset absolutely it's an asset yeah cuz we we talked about this in internally with the team as well because I was trying to help someone understand this like what do you mean branding is an asset I'm like you got to build this impression in

00:55:23 - 00:56:15

the market and when the market thinks of you in a certain way they you don't have to debate with them anymore about why you're great they just assume you guys are great I'm going to buy their product like Nikes have the best shoes or whatever the zeist of that brand is but if you take Nike's logo just the logo alone has been recently evaluated at $76 billion if they sold the logo as an asset that's so crazy which is ludicrous that's awesome it's a tick yeah but there's just so much value behind it

00:55:49 - 00:56:38

right it's like the brand right cuz it's not the logo it's like when people see it what does that mean that's the brand and it's like when we like God we know when you Nik but like when we launched our supplements the reason why we haven't had to spend a single dollar into marketing is because of The Branding so people people just assumed it's good exactly yeah because they've tried our recipes they've been on our program they follow our page they're like yeah well it's a premium they're a

00:56:14 - 00:57:04

premium brand so if they're bringing out supplements it's going to be a premium product okay so you've successfully created a really good line extension I want you to unpack that cuz okay you've had this app for eight years you recently changed the name uh kind of ate a little bit of [ __ ] with a Dom oh ate so much [ __ ] not just a little bit not great for the diet of the brand um but again it's you know it's you've had this decline but then a nice Spike at the end

00:56:39 - 00:57:31

of that and obviously it's going to play its cards whether it's been like super fruitful for you guys or not but it sounds like it is now with the line extension okay people trust the app how do you carefully not destroy your reputation by linking that to hey we also have a supplement yeah I think that when we first launched the supplements we were talking about it way too much on our socials which caused confusion it's like well do they just sell supplements or do they have a program because when

00:57:05 - 00:58:00

you're a digital product it is a lot harder to Market online because you can't it's not tangible you can't just put it in your videos right can you explain that to me so for example when you go on our socials it it's not as easy to see that we have a business or a product because it's um not a tangible good it's a service so we need to do it in our coms need to do it in our email flows we need to bring people on the journey a very different system one like download the app and like you know you

00:57:33 - 00:58:21

know start to work on yourself another you physically see it on the grid you see a physical packet of protein and so what we did very early on was we slammed it on our socials but then I feel like it cause confusion it's like well do we have supplement like people then think we have protein powder like when I was meeting people they're like hey I just saw you launch like you you're that protein G I was like no I'm not I'm not the protein G I've got a health tech company you know and so for us it was

00:57:56 - 00:58:44

like okay well why did we launch supplements and we launched supplements because it was a part of our ecosystem so we launched it because we wanted to recommend a product that we truly trusted to our customers that were on the app and so for us it's now part of their Journey so when someone signs up to the app they're getting recommended Out protein powder on their meal plans they're getting recommended Out protein powder it's a quick click and they purchase so our marketing channels are

00:58:20 - 00:59:25

less socials and more within our platform we send out you know tens of thousands of personalized meal plans on a monthly basis like nearly 50,000 plus on a monthly basis and so we have 50,000 meal plans that are going out that we can make recommendations on protein powder yeah own you never recommend it if they don't want it right but if they tick cuz they can tick protein powder on and off if they say on well guess what you're getting when you have a protein smoothie you're getting eqa Protein

00:58:52 - 00:59:40

Isolate because that's what we recommend and so then that's where we get our sales for our supplements from how do you maintain the Integrity around that cuz I understand it's a sensitive topic and people could have the argument where it's like oh yeah of course you would try to sell your own product because it's more profitable to do that than recommend a third party how do you make sure you as a Brands maintain the Integrity of like no no it's actually good we're going to put a lot of energy

00:59:16 - 01:00:14

into this um because we will only ever recommend it when someone asks us to okay which is most important so we would never recommend protein powder unless someone specifically says protein powder on myant and at any time they can swap it out so it's not like you need to have it but we recommend this because this is the one that we recommend as a company but it's not uncommon for our meal plant so all of our meal plants are very specific when it comes to Brands so we for example when we look at yogurt we recommend

00:59:45 - 01:00:48

pores Protein Plus or whatever you know Arn it cruskits it is so brand specific so it's not uncommon to see the brand as well and so for us it's like res we always um I guess include brands that we align with and we resonate with and our own brand is one of them we wanted to make sure that it's a protein powder that's made out of great ingredients or natural and taste great as well and we've never had any negative reviews knock wood um on wood you can knock on that yeah so so far the

01:00:16 - 01:01:10

community love it and it's in it's been incredible sounds like you guys are crushing it and it sounds like you got like a giant heart to like really help people and connect them with the right stuff now around like this transition like obviously if this caused confusion you could be like oh my gosh what are we doing here um were you in any way hesitating with diversifying your your business portfolio to include products within the system yes what were those conern my investors were saying are you

01:00:43 - 01:01:36

crazy yeah I'm this is like me being completely honest right and I ask myself every single day did I make the right decision and I'll explain why so we are a SAS company you know we have incredible margins we have spent millions and millions of Mill well over $10 million on our technology right like our technology is so Advanced and so complex but it's fully automated and when we first started the business it was very high touch and it was you know there was human interaction and whatever

01:01:10 - 01:02:08

and we've managed to replicate that Journey without the need of a nutritionist anymore right because we have you know tens of millions of data points available to us to create that personalized experience that has built the technology that we have today and so our margins are great when it comes to Tech and everyone knows that Tech and you guys got runs on the boards crushing it are awesome which is always great for an exit and valuation of a company and so on and then we look at product and

01:01:39 - 01:02:40

product is very different margins on product are not as great but then it's like well what does that mean for the valuation of the company as a whole oh I see cuz you're you're complicating the the business mix cuz you've gone from SAS which is like downloadable automated margins now Logistics dely you know packaging smaller margins yeah smaller margins yeah well when you look at a when you look at a SAS company and you look at a product company like a tangible Product Company the valuations

01:02:09 - 01:03:11

significantly differ in terms of the multiple significantly what do you think the multiples are like from like SAS to products um you know when you look at SAS depends if you're B2B or direct a consumer but you're looking anywhere and depends if you're profitable you're looking anywhere between like seven to the 15 times right you're looking at that higher yeah product you're looking at and that's based on your ebit yeah your ebit so your Revenue your Revenue right your revenue and then when you're

01:02:40 - 01:03:42

looking at product that's a ebit d multiple at a lower at a lower times so then you're looking at like between two to 4 five pushing it depending how profitable you are and what your growth has been like growth rate per year is like super important and then on like your e interesting so okay so like you're like investors are like what are you doing cuz you've got like this 15x EA sorry 15x um Force multiplier on the Rev fingers cross uh and then you're like you're bringing in

01:03:12 - 01:04:03

another model that is going to work symbiotically to it and you're like maybe it's going to dilute it across the board what was the debate inh housee where you're like no because X keep the company separate they're two separate entities yeah so they sit under a parent compan sister companies under a parent under a parent company so at any time if we ever want to raise Capital just for the subs business like the um tech company we can if we ever want to sell that off we can if we ever want to sell

01:03:37 - 01:04:27

off the supplements we can raise Capital whatever then they both there's no liability like any liability sits separately de risk it remove liability and then like have these companies kind of like work symbiotically like but not at a point where either of them could topple the other and it was diversification as well and that's what I said to them I said we now able to make an income stream outside of our subs we also have an income like we also so when we look at the business we've

01:04:02 - 01:04:57

got our subs Revenue which is our biggest driver of Revenue and then we've got partnership which is Media income so we work with brands that pay us to be featured on our socials like we're technically an a medeor arm influencer whatever you call it right we're one of those um and then we've got now the supplements and so it's diversification but why they were accepting of it was because they saw the ecosystem they I said we're not investing in this business we're not spending any money on

01:04:29 - 01:05:21

this business we've got great payment terms and we've got a great audience and we've got the community there we're using the platform that already exists to increase the average order value or increase the average revenue per user in our in our world by adding on protein powder to their subscription I love that and it's a really intelligent play and then also like the argument could be like well guys at the end of the day like we like spin up this company we sell it we spin up an asset sell it spin

01:04:55 - 01:05:42

up an asset sell it and like let's just be ruthlessly commercial here at the end of the day like yes we want to help people yes we want to do really cool creative stuff but at the end of the day if you're trying to build a business you're trying to create assets yeah yeah but you just can't have it become a liability and that's the problem right and I think that the product game is so different because I come from a tech business and so when you look into a product you're like this is a lot

01:05:19 - 01:06:22

different okay but here here's the unfair Advantage like do you think that that your background and SAS gave you an edge over product because maybe you're looking at product in a different way yeah absolutely what was your unfair Advantage when it comes to product um I think that I would say my unfair Advantage isn't technically because of coming from SAS I think actually yeah maybe maybe because I just like good margins cuz like when you're give me the margins like when you're looking at a

01:05:54 - 01:06:48

when you look at a SAS business or like a technology business your margins are great and so I think looking like when we went into product that was like a really big thing for us and so it had to make sense from a financial perspective unit of Economics is so important people don't consider that in their business and so it's like well it needs to make sense for us to actually implement this and that's why we haven't invested anything into marketing and we could and the supplement arm could go off and we

01:06:21 - 01:07:12

could be the next you know I don't know Optimum Nutrition or whatever right but we're not that's not what we're after when when it comes to our supplements our supplements is a value ad for our subscriptions and because of that our margins on our supplements can remain healthy and great because we're not investing into marketing that's interesting because you would say like I would assume that especially in the early two or three years of a supplement brand they're probably spending 20 or

01:06:46 - 01:07:53

30% of what they earn back into marketing more marketing is it's expensive oh yeah marketing is very very expensive in the supplement space like what do you think that that reinvestment figure is in the first initial years I would say anywhere between 20 to 50% but if you are anything over 30% you're in the red Red Zone I think so you're in a dangerous territory to be honest you shouldn't be spending anything more than 20% on paid media agreed and that's like that's a rule that we follow when it

01:07:20 - 01:08:17

comes to like internally as a business but it's tough it's not easy to make noise online anymore and that's why your organic strategy is so important because what people don't realize is that if you're driving more people organically your customer acquisition cost overall comes down significantly and that is like that is one of the best things that you could ever do how do you create verality for your brand without having to pay meta to do it for you which you know Verity through meta is not even the

01:07:49 - 01:08:43

thing but even think anymore I feel like that doesn't exist anymore um how do you do it right organically okay so so like take me into your frame of thinking like I really want to see this from your lens when when you say that it's really difficult to get attention now with social media so you have to really lean into organic let me rephrase that you're saying it's hard to get attention through paid media oh yeah increasingly well in my space right our competitors are n Weight Watchers and you know all

01:08:16 - 01:09:17

these big brands that have raised you know 300 million USD for marketing alone they're not going to see EQ anywhere near as many times as they see NS ads so who are they going to sign up to n right yep so that's something to highly highly consider so you need to look at your distribution channels like how like where where do you exist if you're heavily relying on meta as your only platform to acquire a customer good luck yeah it's like you're running a business with like One Table

01:08:46 - 01:09:54

leg and what happens when meta just completely cuts off when that leg Falls like changes whatever right yeah you don't so you're saying you don't want to be solely dependent on one point of success yeah and go right you can't control that what bus that were attached to Tik Tok in the US and say what if that happens to meta do you know how many businesses would come crashing down almost all of them yeah yeah but that's why it's so important to look at your distribution channels I think you

01:09:20 - 01:10:22

know organic is like super important but what are your Partnerships M if Affiliates you know Word of Mouth email database you know it's your own channels how are you taking people how are you taking your millions of followers and turning them into leads into your database because they mean nothing when you have a million followers and they're not sitting in your database they mean nothing what if you lost your Instagram account tomorrow yeah it's like how how would you still make money yeah I call

01:09:51 - 01:10:45

them like opportunity Farms so like if your opportunity Farm goes up and Flames like what do you got then like yeah you want to have Instagram followers but then you want to turn that into emails and then you want to turn the emails into YouTube you know uh podcast viewers or what have you you want to start to sift the attention and spread it out ABS what are the buckets that you are really hot on right now that you're like we got to put more resources into these what I call Opportunity farms in your case you

01:10:19 - 01:11:18

want to make sure your distribution channels are successful like what what are you putting majority of your resources into now Word of Mouth so referral okay massive for us referral programs that is um and creating very seamless experience when it comes to referrals but not referrals based on like hey I'm on EQ join the program value ad referrals so having an opportunity where you capture them it's like oh yeah I'm going to share this with a friend because they I know they'd get value out of this piece of content

01:10:48 - 01:11:42

kind of like we create content that's valuable on Instagram we're giving our our users of the app the same feeling to share that value with their friends how do how are you guys doing that currently currently building it out and it's um something not something we haven't launched yet but in a couple of months you'll see okay cool but you're saying like outside of like making a sharable piece of content on socials how do we give someone something that they go this is so good I'm going to share it

01:11:15 - 01:12:04

from your product to their friend right that's what you were referring to as word of mouth is like something so good that they want to tell or share with their friends exactly that's what how you create reality so word of mouth is a really big one for us and then um second to that is just email database just increasing our leads like for us it's like how are we continually looking to build our database like like I said great we get you know an additional 10,000 followers on Instagram this month

01:11:39 - 01:12:32

but how many of them are actually Le have we turned into leg gen okay that is like absolutely most important for us so it's like optimizing our channels our organic channels to get more leads for the company do you think a lot of businesses are sleeping on email yes why do you think they sleep on email when it's so easy to set one up I don't think they realize how easy it is to set up but they also don't know what the content strategy needs to be okay so it's much like having a Content strategy

01:12:06 - 01:12:56

for socials you it's it can become really overwhelming yeah but you also need to like you can start off really small but then you go into segmentation and you go into flows and you go into this and you go into that like we're so fortunate that we get a number of data points upon someone Landing into our email database so a big lead gen for us is our online quiz so when someone comes onto our website they will fill out an online quiz and we get to know them and then you can really put them into a

01:12:31 - 01:13:21

personalized flow based on the information that they give us on that quiz yeah because you're you're trying to have different distribution channels and you're trying to spin them up into email and then you're trying to find interesting ways to give them value and then find out more data points and then helping them with those data points people are not just going to convert from Instagram people are not just going to be like oh she I just watched post sign up yeah no get him into an email

01:12:56 - 01:13:47

give him a bit of Education get them to watch CP videos make the problem um that they're experiencing very aware show them how you're solving it teach them that you've got the answer and the solution nurture them then they'll sign up it's a process it's a journey you're all over this yes speak about this every single day with my te I think this is interesting because this is your SAS background coming into play with the product yeah right cuz how many people out there that have a product are just

01:13:22 - 01:14:12

sleeping on their emails right now and you're going to murder them cuz you're like nope we did this with SAS I know how to help with this yeah it's it's crazy like it if you're in the digital space whether you're SAS or your product you need to have a great customer you have to need to have great customer Journey when it comes to your emails it's so fundamental which is so important when you're building an app it's like every little inch of friction in this app matters and then you're

01:13:46 - 01:15:01

taking that same approach to product love that I could talk about this all day too so in conclusion like I want to I want to get to some more deep questions to understand your psyche behind you as an individual and like your more ult truistic side your subconscious side your you know I want to Dent the Universe part of you how do you want to be remembered yeah it's an interesting one I think you know based on the impact that we make in this space you know I this business was never about the money

01:14:24 - 01:15:18

and the financial return and God no business is ever about the financial return cuz if you think you're making money before you sell your company you're kidding yourself right like that's where pay some bills go a holiday but not much else yeah yeah and so um it was always about the impact it's and a lot of the decisions that we're making right now particularly with our growth strategy is really just about impact and scale and it was you know it I would have never you know in a million years

01:14:51 - 01:15:46

thought I'd ever go down like the different paths that we're going into now but it really so that we can get scale and just share our message because like I said if you go out on the streets and ask someone about how to lose weight and they're still telling you that they need to cut carbs that my job here isn't done getting chills and goosebumps okay um what's a quote or a mantra that you've carried with you on your journey that you wished everyone listening to this would immediately Implement let go

01:15:20 - 01:16:31

and let God that's something that I say so many times over and over and over and over and over and over again in my personal my business life just let go and let God what does that mean to you it just means that what will be will be but in the same breath you know I think that people think that they can just manifest something by thinking about it it's just it's wild right I wrote down my goals where is it yeah so you've got to do something about it but say you know you you take a risk

01:15:56 - 01:16:55

like we took a risk with the EQ Rebrand and we saw the impact that it had particularly on our domain Authority and what that meant for us as a business and you know you asked me if I had regretted it and I didn't I just let go and I let God I just trusted it was the right decision and you do all the right things and whatever the result is supposed to be the result will be and if it doesn't work out it's okay you just pivot and that's it just pivot you've got to learn to Pivot on your journey it's so

01:16:26 - 01:17:17

important cuz I think so many people that are starting their business Journey are so caught up in got to come up with the perfect business plan and every time I talk to anyone who's worked in this SAS space are like that's a load of [ __ ] you're literally just going to burn money and you're going to eat [ __ ] and it's going to be day after day of like I don't know if I'm going to pay the bills or keep the lights on until you're like this works lean in pivot yeah absolutely I wish I pivoted a lot

01:16:51 - 01:17:35

sooner in my journey as well a number of things you can't be so attached to what the business was when you first started you need to learn to Pivot and pivoting doesn't have to be an extreme pivot it's just little pivots along the way but you need to get comfortable with it you're not building this business for you anymore you're building this business for your community you're still saving you're still solving the same problem you're just changing how you solve it

01:17:13 - 01:18:06

you're just evolving and that's most important I I love the question and I always try to come back to it in workshops when we're workshopping like brand strategy with clients it's like in service of what we want to build a great product great service of what yeah cuz the customers going to love it why would they love it in service of what and we that will if you dig with that question eventually you will hit bedrock and it's usually not money for people that really want to build business yeah and if if

01:17:40 - 01:18:49

your intent is always about money good I I think it's it's it's hard building a business is hard and I say this to so many people and a lot of people like would you ever start a business after EQ [ __ ] no and I say that unless I'm I have a burning passion for it like my purpose in this world is my business my my the message that we share right that is my that is my purpose that gives me life every single day but if I don't have that same feeling about something after I exit this company there is no

01:18:14 - 01:19:14

chance in a million years that I will embark on that Journey again because it is there is no Financial return immediately yes you build a great lifestyle right you can you know you on trips and whatever and you become you know in control of your life and your time and whatever but the mental strain the relationships that you forego that everything you it it becomes there is so much compromise that you make in your life it's a choice and if you don't love what you do every single day there are

01:18:44 - 01:19:44

going to be days where you're in bed and you're like are we going to see tomorrow like is tomorrow going to come I don't even know like [ __ ] I've got you know so many investors now that perform is like their eyes is on performance my quarterly investor reports I can't miss the mark so I'm sitting here stressing every day but if I didn't love what I did throw in the town be like yeah see you later I'm out go get myself a great executive role for 300K and see you

01:19:13 - 01:20:04

later I work 9 to 5 clock off whatever four weeks of annual leave a year and I'm happy oh I love this because I think you know I I always pop a few questions when I'm interviewing people because we're at a place now where we have such volume for inquiry for the agency that we actually have the luxury to like interview clients and be like not this one yes this one and one of the things that I like to go to in my mind is like there's two types of entrepreneurs there's the one that wants money and

01:19:40 - 01:20:26

then there's the one that's like hellbent on solving a problem and I always love the hellbent on solving problem entrepreneur way more than I love the person who just wants to make money entrepreneur because I find one of two things happen the person that just wants money as an entrepreneur that wants to capitalize on opportunity to get set outcome they give up when [ __ ] gets hard they go a there's not much money in this as I thought this is kind of brutal and tough like I'm going to

01:20:03 - 01:20:54

Pivot over to this next money-making thing that's the new hot Trend whereas the psychopath who is the entrepreneur who's hellbent on solving a problem they're my favorite cuz they're like delusional when it gets hard they're like yeah yeah it's hard for the yeah not a big deal we'll get around this I've got another idea and I think that's what people had to do in SAS to survive in SAS you're constantly pivoting more than I would most Industries because you're constantly dealing with

01:20:28 - 01:21:28

roadblocks technologically financially culturally Investments and otherwise but like it sounds like you're red hot on like the Deep unconscious part of you is like we have to do something that is impactful it's not about money otherwise you would have quit right a million times I would not be here today if it was about the money let me tell you that much and it's funny because um one of our investors who sits on our board Janine she actually said something to me which you know I think is so important to share

01:20:59 - 01:21:58

with anyone that wants to start a business so you know when you look at what an exit is and because you really only make money like physical money not lifestyle physical money once you liquidate right the valuation of your company means [ __ ] until you actually liquidate you could be like a badge of honor I got my metaphorical role X my company's worth X but it's not worth [ __ ] it's not worth [ __ ] right and so like you know realistically to get your company valued and sold for over $10

01:21:28 - 01:22:35

million it's it's not easy right it takes years it takes a lot of investment it takes a lot of stress whatever and so you can sell um a company for over $10 million in let's say 10 years or 15 years or whatever right or you can work as a really great executive and you know if you work at Google or wherever in like just a senior role you're getting paid 300 to 500k a year you do that for 20 years cuz that's normal that's a normal career span 20 to 30 years you're still making $10 million over that span

01:22:01 - 01:22:52

of time and you're less stressed yeah that's a good way of looking at it you know so like and you get your weekends off exactly you get your nights off you get and you're not sweating over the weekend about a report that's coming up on Monday no you're not sweating about you know like as a business owner you're tracking performance every second of the day my cuz I started seeing a therapist and she said to me so when was the last time you actually had time off and I said oh I just went to Europe like and I

01:22:27 - 01:23:16

said but I didn't turn I for the first time in eight years I actually didn't open up my laptop I didn't even take my laptop with me and then she goes but did you switch off and I said no because like mentally I'm not Switched Off I'm thinking about absolutely everything and anything and I'm still thinking about my business so yeah I may have had two weeks off my laptop but in my head I've I've not Switched Off for eight years so you need to then ask yourself if it's

01:22:51 - 01:23:50

Financial well go get a good job and work in that good job for 20 years work your way up make good money and you'll still make your $10 million and it's going to be whole lot [ __ ] easier than starting a business so with that being said why I'm not saying don't start a business no I I get where you're coming from CU you're like warning label like how bad do you really want it yeah and too many people I guess romanticize the idea of being an entrepreneur because it's like now cool

01:23:21 - 01:24:21

to be an entrepreneur it's not necessarily cool to have a job but you're saying like seriously consider like how brutal it's going to be and if you want it enough go for it but like just be good to come to toes with what it really is yeah it's tough being an entrepreneur is a very lonely Journey it's mentally taxing you lose yourself you know like you become your brand it's like well who's a m outside of EQ CU that's all you do that's all you know if you truly want to succeed you need to

01:23:51 - 01:25:04

give your business absolutely everything and it's it's not an easy journey and people don't see that you carry so much you know at one point you know the business had 45 employees right hi internally in Sydney that's 45 salaries that I'm responsible for not anyone else me plus all of our bills plus all of our technology marketing this that no one else is responsible except AAL that's a lot to carry you know that's a lot to mentally like to to carry as a 20 I 20 30y old and you don't you don't realize

01:24:28 - 01:25:08

that what kind of Stress and Anxiety you get on a daily basis and it's like well how do I reduce my stress you'll never be able to reduce your stress cuz if it's not one thing it's another like you know I've always been like well when this thing is done I'll be like ah but then that thing's done another thing comes up and another thing and another thing and another thing and and that's a journey of business and I love it like I thrive in it and I I wouldn't change it

01:24:48 - 01:25:43

for the world but that's because I love what I do I love that one of my favorite quotes is um from Jim ran and he said don't wish business were easier yeah wish you were better yeah and that really resonates with me because you you can wish away how difficult building a business is but like at the end of the day like you can do an exit and take a large sum of coin if you're really good and if you're one of the rare few to pull it off but like you said when you have 45 you know Master feed and and

01:25:16 - 01:26:16

you're trying to keep the lights on you're trying to raise Capital you're trying to bring in the clients you're trying to be every corner of the business everywhere all at once it's hard and and what would you say that with all that contextualized when you wake up in the morning what keeps you going with that in the back of your head honestly the feedback that we get from our community on a daily basis the lives that we change the people are saying I have a better relationship with my husband I

01:25:46 - 01:26:45

put food on the table for my kids that I can enjoy at the same time I'm fitting into that dress that I bought 3 years ago that I've never been able to fit into I've lost the pregnancy weight that I never thought I could I feel good I feel confident I love myself I'm a good role model for my children that's what gets me out of bed every single day it's funny cuz my partner like he has a really great job he's a project manager um in like electrical engine like electrical um and you know he's really

01:26:15 - 01:27:03

big on like building the life that you want to live every day so don't wait until your holidays like you know don't wait for the two weeks that you take off to live this life that you've always wanted to live like every day that you live should be that life that you want to live what is that is it you know near the beach going for a swim blah blah blah right and I love that and he says to me so what's that life that you know what's that life that you want to live every single day like what's that thing

01:26:38 - 01:27:36

that ticks your boxes it's my work it's not being by the beach it's not like don't get me wrong that's that feels my want that's nourishing like I want that don't get me wrong but what gives me life is my business and it's not business it's it's the impact of my business and that's what makes every day of my life feel like I'm living my day to the absolute fullest inside of that what what parts are the most rewarding for you is it do you like solving

01:27:08 - 01:28:12

problems do you like creating what what's the more higher purpose part of you I understand the impact but like what is it that you personally get a kick out of running a business o that's a hard one um I thought it was thought it was problem solving I thought that I was a really good Problem Solver but I think I'm starting to realize that it's the creative side I'm super wacky like I just like sometimes [ __ ] comes out of my mouth and I'm like what the where did this even come from like what am I even

01:27:40 - 01:28:27

saying but I think it's the creativity and I think I get the itch to be creative like when I feel like I'm not doing it like you know at different parts of your business Journey you're doing so much more of this like Capital raise or whatever you're not being creative maybe I'm creative when I talk but like you're not creative when you're Capital raising it's factual right and very emotional but like it's not working on campaigns it's not working on bigger

01:28:04 - 01:28:59

Vision it's working towards the bigger Vision but it's not working on bigger vision and so that's when I feel my most not my best self CU I'm just like like I don't feel like it's filling my cup up but when I'm talking about big vision and I'm working towards that 18 to 24 month plan and it's creative that's when I'm like that's when I thrive but I always thought it was problem solving but I think it's creative I would agree I think you strike me as someone who's

01:28:31 - 01:29:21

very much about a vision and then well building it yeah and and I again I don't want to pigeon hole you in any way shape or form but it's like you definitely strike me as someone that like is like very obsessed about a vision and you're like how do I build the world to make it work into that Vision yeah absolutely I think that I'm very much a Visionary but I'm also an Executor like I just get she done you know when you've got your Visionary Founders and they're just like

01:28:57 - 01:29:59

they've got these big plans and it's just like nothing get away from me I like I [ __ ] get [ __ ] done like I'm a [ __ ] doer massive [ __ ] doer so like I just like I just execute like I execute and I just you just get it done you get a buzz out of like man I did 300 things today and I did really well cuz when I came in here and I told you I did 29 emails you were super impressed like CU I'm like how I can't get through one email in one day but my cheat code is like refer forward like do this for me delete

01:29:28 - 01:30:22

delete delete until I send a second followup and then that's when I respond I used to do that and I that ended badly everyone knows not to email everyone knows not to email me because it's very unlikely that you'll get a response unless you're an investor man I got to work on that i' prefer that I love that all right last question um since you've been so generous with your time and and joined us today and unpack this and being very candid and very like open and honest which is amazing um what's a door

01:29:54 - 01:31:00

that you need to kick in right now to take your business to the next level and something that potentially myself my team or viewers could feed into I don't think it's a commercial one I think it's a personal one I think I'm like going on this journey right now and I enter this year and I'm like I just want peace in my life because me having more peace in my life personally and just slowing everything down makes me Better Business person and I never thought that that would ever be the case

01:30:27 - 01:31:23

I always thought hustle and bule and chaos and stress stress stress but I'm just like wo like that actually it affects the way that I think I can't actually problem solve or make decisions as quickly when I have a million things going on in my mind when I'm not there when I'm not present when I'm stressed and stressed and stressed and so you know the one thing that I'm really focusing on this year is just like slowing down not slowing down in my work but slowing down in my mind so that I'm

01:30:55 - 01:31:57

better in my work well that's usually where the creative self really comes to light is when you can be more present absolutely and um less like frantically or frenetically from activity to activity absolutely and so yeah it's not a commercial thing and I don't think it's anything you can help me with or the audience but it's just this this journey that I'm going on right now and something that I'm like yeah I just want to just want to be more present and I I want to do that that for a mile outside

01:31:25 - 01:32:40

of EQ but I also know that a mile inside of EQ is highly going to benefit from me being this person because my my mental Clarity will be a million times better for my business just giving me chills like I'm just getting so many personal notes from this around the importance of selfawareness when you need to focus on self yeah and it's like and I mentioned this I think right before the podcast I think maybe I said this to cam um it's you know we focus as entrepreneurs we focus so heavily on the

01:32:03 - 01:33:10

destination but you know for me it's like you know the exit the exit the exit it's like well you know you can do this journey so in so many different ways why not do it in a way that you enjoy and so that for me is like well I don't want to lose myself in this anymore I actually want to find myself and become a better for my business in this process I love that we we had um Blake a friend of mine who owns uh or partially founded the company my drive hero as the app and he said that they

01:32:37 - 01:33:31

regularly in their team the founders ask each other are we having fun and if we're not having fun why are we here yeah it's so important I think we lose sight of that as business owners we get so caught up in pleasing the investors feeding their team making sure everything in the books is all good we have to stop and take care of ourselves yeah because if you don't have your health which is your mental health as well you have nothing wow I'm getting chills again I can speak to you all day I think this

01:33:05 - 01:34:03

has been insatiably insightful and also like really revealing around like the Dynamics of what it really takes to be an entrepreneur and how much there's an intersection or an interplay of moving Parts between you know the clients your psyche your personal development your higher self your team the culture investors and yeah thank you just so much for being so honest and candid about what you experienced thank you for having me on the show I hope they got a lot of value out of this I got a lot of

01:33:34 - 01:34:00

value selfishly it's all about me um I got tons but I think yeah we'd love to have you back because this is so much more we can unpack here yeah of course definitely thank you so much thank you [Music]