No B.S. Events: The Art of Disrupting The Event Industry | Jason Soultan

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well look it is tough and you kind of have to Dance with the Devil sometimes you got to sell yourself out and I feel that that's what most events are doing these days Jason Sulton is a highly respected designer digital agency owner and serial entrepreneur he is the co-founder of soul and wolf a multi-award-winning digital agency as well as the creator of nobs [Music] events essentially no fluff is is what you know the event is you know there's bad stuff in our industry bad stuff in our lives careers let's talk about it

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nobs is a leading event agency known for producing worldclass conferences workshops and meetups his impact on the global event space has solidified his reputation as a true Titan of the industry I found an OBS creating that event actually saved my career as hard and as difficult as it was so be honest with me I'm typically the opener or the closer yep what does that mean you're an energetic fun guy a lot of people do get in their own way cuz they're trying to minimize that risk and you can only do that to a

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certain extent there's risk in everything we wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for risk what are those moments or those bows where you're like man this isn't working I want to throw in the towel what do you do in those situations [Music] um I would like to welcome my friend Jason to the pcast thanks day thanks also known as Jay also known as Jay it feels weird calling you Jason you got your stage page name and then our friendship name and um no matter how long it's been since we've connected

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it's always right back to where we were last so very easy very natural good to see you again man I think um you've been quite busy in the background kind of preparing a few things for the year um just to I guess unpack a bit about what you're doing man like what's what's your master plan for the next year master plan for the next year um it's a tough one as you mentioned I've got the Solen wolf my digital agency so last 18 months has been extremely hectic uh a number of

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large projects that we've executed um I found myself back on the tools a little um which meant the event side of things uh over the last 18 months had I had to call the Jets on those a little bit but for the next 12 months we've got a you a bunch of things planned uh potentially Christo coming back down to Australia and running a number of overseas events in uh in Dubai um as well so yeah just just busy year I just needed more time and and I'm through the the darkness now so through the darkness man we we call

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it the uh the medi eval ages when you're in the middle of business and you're in the battlefield and you're trying to figure things out but for you I think um you know what strikes me about you and your personality is you have a fantastic gift for networking with people creating connectivity creating belonging creating like these little tribes where people can get along and share knowledge and get along with each other so I guess before um the recording you mentioned that you kind of stumbled into the event

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space and having created your first conference um out of pure frustration what was the frustration that you felt and and why did you feel the need to take action yeah well as you just mentioned I I didn't feel I had any business running an event creating an event it was something that was burning at me for a very long time um and it was purely born around the fact that I would travel internationally spend all this money that especially back then I necessarily didn't have I had a very young family and I'd Disappear for two

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to three weeks at a Time come back and almost with my tail between my legs and I would never admit this to my wife um but feel like I wasted my time um being a one a creative so I'm a designer by trade um to a business owner um I found that traveling to all these events to try and better myself get this inspiration um I just couldn't um I'd be listening to people who I couldn't really resonate with uh they either didn't know what it took to run a business how difficult it is uh how

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people can keep the lights on you know that type of that type of content um because you see a lot of people at at conferences and events they're great speakers yes and they teach business uh but they seldomly own a business correct H and and a lot even the the the you know creatives that I would look up to none of them had run a business yeah they might have worked for you know companies like Facebook or Google um and I looked up to them for that reason but it's a really unique situation running

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your own gig and also being on the tools and trying to be creative and running a development team um and I just wasn't getting I think validation for all of that um and I really wanted to learn and find out how these people navigated through certain way um you know periods of time how they found that ideal client how they executed a really complex project um or how they simply kept the lights on like I said before um and I just couldn't get any of that from these events a lot of them were these

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portfolio showing you know exercises or people trying to sell a product or push something and it just didn't resonate with me so I came back and I had this Burning thing in the back of my head um I want to create and run an event that I want to go to and that was the the motivation behind it um and it wasn't until I I was think I was in San Francisco in 2018 at the a Awards uh conference uh somehow got invited to the VIP speaker you know denner cocktail party whatever it was and I met matz

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carea uh who was the co-founder of ANS and he was the first person I ever told about my aspiration to run a conference he had created a conference called 99u which along with behance Adobe bought off him okay and his and his co-founders so he had had event experience and from that day uh I told him my wife was present my business partner was present nobody knew any of this stuff so he grabbed them from the other side of the room put me right on the spot and I had to tell them my idea and plan and he pushed me for the next

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12 months to to Really execute and get it done what do you think it was that he saw in you and why do you think he was pushing you uh I think it was based around the content and that in our industry nothing like that really existed so you know to to have an event that you you get a whole bunch of people in the digital and creative space not so much talking about the work but talking about life within the industry um doesn't exist so to have people coming to speak about you know uh mental health

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diversity culture um all these types of things uh one of my speakers at the first conference uh PR PR Jones um actually did a live poll on the prevalence of micro doing in our industry so a live Anonymous poll so we had people you know there were people that were having LSD in the morning of coming to the conference and you know all these different types of medications and drugs and illicit drugs you know micro doing but um I think I got on stage afterwards and said from what I saw from the poll there's going to be a

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very big Afterparty afterwards um but just just touching on those topics that we won't or people don't necessarily talk about um that's what I I think I I wanted and it ended up being in particular the first conference I think was probably like my therapy session it was a very expensive and risky way of doing it but uh it was it was like a big therapy session for everybody um yeah I had another one of my speakers sorry s do uh so do santes from he's the creative director at Wikipedia you

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Mexican guy got his dream job um in San Francisco and you know he had never been so depressed in his life like he thought he had everything that he ever worked for but he suffered you know horribly from depression and that was his talk so uh we touch on those things and we we really push the boundaries and we it can be controversial or polarizing for our industry but these are the types of things that need to be spoken about and that's that's what we kind of aim to do and you know we share I guess similar

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path running agencies and uh often what's not talked about is how lonely the journey is because I think when you're a creative type as we are and you're producing content in media and you're trying to you're entertaining you're trying to be of value to the world because I find that most creatives are trying to go his value like we want to make you feel good we want to make you see something interesting or experience something and then behind the scenes you know we're running through

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chasing clients for invoicing dealing with complaints getting people delaying projects paying your phone bills paying your phone bills trying to catch up on bills and the taxes getting you and it's it's it's like this weird concoction because you would think that like you know creative people get into creative businesses so they can be more creative and get more of their work out but it actually just ends up you trying to do a five six year crash course in how to deal with stress anxiety overwhelmed and

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problem solving yeah no you're you're 100% spot on so since I can remember I was always going to be a designer I always wanted to be a designer um you know we we've spoken before about you know being of Greek Heritage uh you know family were self-employed I think I always knew I was just going to be self-employed I think yeah I've seen this before every Greek I've ever met always has a business they always have something going on something like or or if it wasn't if they weren't Greek

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someone in my circle a lot of people were were self-employed so I think that's that was my destiny from the start and I didn't think really think any other way um but yeah no one prepares you for what's to come and the pitfalls and how difficult it's going to be I mean we can all hustle we can all do things tough and you know similar to many people and and I think yourself as well started with little if not nothing um and worked our way up you I've been doing this for you know 17 18 years and

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you know finally you know probably in the last seven or eight years it's things are kind of where I want them to be so the notion of an overnight success and things are easy no no no it's um completely the opposite but I think that Foundation having done it tough uh done it pretty hard you know allowed me to do things like nobs conference which was predominantly done on own 95% of the creative work you know I built the web page you know I did all that stuff um after hours so I was pulling in those

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you know 18 hour days and and things like that um but I was doing something I was really passionate about and that's the difference and you're you're such a Swiss army knife of a guy like you're incredibly good at networking you're fantastic sales you know technology you're really creative and you have a ability to kind of pull a master plan together so to just highlight what you've been able to accomplish with no BS like you've work worked with you know Brands like behance uh Shopify like big

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names to come in and sponsor these events host fantastic guests and speakers all across the world like when it comes to the brand and the vision that you had for it obviously the first event wouldn't have been like at that caliber or was it like how did you how did you go with the first event first event so I'd mentioned Trel meeting mattius and a whole bunch of other people over the years so matus just for clarity he he's um he owns behance he was the co-founder of behance co-founder

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of behance fantastic um so you know speaking but I I traveled so many times and met so many incredible people over the journey um there's people you resonate with so you were attending events and just I was attending events I wasn't speaking at events I'm just a punter I'm just I'm spending my money that I shouldn't have bye wife bye kid see you in three weeks I'm off to spend 20 grand on a trip um yeah but I I would somehow find myself in a position or meet this person that you you really

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resonate with right and um you know Matias at the time he was standing next to another friend of mine now LeAndre fer LeAndre was the head of uh generative design for Nike for a decade wow and now he's running a lot of the AI stuff there in Portland Oregon wow um so they've become very close friends of mine and you know by extension I then get to meet other people that they're friends with that are in the industry or just networking events in general at other events I find myself resonating

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with people you know um that have similar interests and you know morally ethically um and I definitely don't seek them out it just sort of happens organically and naturally can we touch on that because I think often times when you think of networking and I talk to people that are like starting a business they're like I got to go Network I got to go meet people I got to go shake hands and sell my products and services when you're traveling the world and you're hanging out with the caliber of

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people that you're hanging out with you know I I've been at a ton of these events and you meet people and you're like you're not nice person but probably never going to talk to you ever again like how do you end up in a position where they genuinely are like hey come hang out come like you know let's go grab a beer together like what is the art of actually networking in a way where you're not trying to get something um I I've never been one to ask for too many things from people um I never have

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and even in business and probably to my detriment a fair bit of time when whether you're trying to win a client or or or or NAB a client um I I'm I'm very proud and wouldn't ask for anything or I don't have ulterior motives of getting something out of somebody um so I think to your point you know how do I end up hanging out with these guys becoming friends with these people um it I'm just me um and I think they like that because obviously you know people can can Fanboy them and uh you know look up to them in

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a certain way but I just treat them as people right so you're not doing the puppy dog like huge fan like s my book kind of energy and half of them I you know tend to find out they they're bigger than than what I think they are um you know uh afterwards because whatever just having a having a drink with him at the bar and you know things happen naturally so yeah yeah I I don't go in with any aspirations of doing that stuff sure I love networking and I'll go to an event but I I won't force myself

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upon anybody um and I can also weed out [ __ ] fairly quickly too so you know for every one person that I really like there's probably another hundred that I I don't really want to talk to or have too much to do with but um that's just the nature of life too right it's yeah yeah and it can get interesting because I think you know like we've been in advance and um it's just it's a strange situation because you might be in a different country and people are fans and then they want to approach you and

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ask you questions you're saying just keep it nonchalant meet and greet people have a genuine conversation just be yourself and uh don't be weird don't be weird or be your weird self or correct if that's you that's you and people can like it and and take it but uh yeah I mean from my perspective I mean probably different to yourself you know you're obviously been speaking and you know you've been on stage a fair bit I'm the opposite um I actually organizing events

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for for people to speak on stage so uh I I don't walk into a room and people know who I am automatically um at all um but I am myself with no matter who I'm with um so it doesn't matter who they are or or where they're from if you you we get along and you like me great if not we're not for each other it's it's kind of like a relationship yeah like a genuine friendship I think you have like a natural gift of like creating a space for people as well you seem to have like

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this natural gift of hospitality hey we're just here to hang out like let's chitchat let's have something to eat like it's never you never have this forced feeling behind behind your events no and I've never been like that and never never wanted my events to be like that so you know large and OBS conference two days 20 speakers you know 600 people in a venue um I I wanted to be a safe space I want it to be for people to to to learn from I want them to get as much as they can out of it and

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my aim with every speaker I have like I mentioned I kind of um I will handpick a lot of my speakers I get approached by a lot of speakers okay and some you know I will look into a little further um but uh I I almost know what I want them to speak about I want them to resonate with the with the audience okay uh and and be a safe space so so you're like kind of carefully or rating curating um what what is that that you're looking for like how how do you make sure that you're building an event that um you

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know are you trying to cover a lot of ground are you trying to keep it on a on a thread like how do you make sure that weaves together there's no like I mean it's single stage uh no tracks so you know uh if I approach a lot of my speakers I've either seen speak before okay um or being introduced to and heard of um so my first number of speakers you mentioned Michael Venture I actually saw him at 99u in New York never met him before he ends up being one of Ma's best friends and you know we get connected

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and we've built a great Bond and relationship um he's he's an amazing man and you know he speaks about empathy and you know empathy and Leadership and you know all that type of stuff so we really you know delve into really important topics and issues uh no no fluff is essentially no fluff is is what you know the event is let's talk about it whether it's good bad or the ugly you know there's bad stuff in our industry bad stuff in our lives careers let's talk about it let's um yeah yeah it's

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important because it's not really uh people don't really create that space at events because usually events are are like what would you say more on the optimistic side you know life's going to be great it's the Tony Robbins pump up correct right so there's and that that was you know I remember one example I was at a a conference it might have been in New York or something and there was this girl from a tech company um talking about how her team she managed a team of 50 um their sole purpose was to come up

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with one line of text like a success message 50 people and for me as a small business owner wait 50 people to get one line of text one line of text you know and I won't mention the tool or the or the company because I actually use it now um but yeah it was like that was so foreign and weird one letter each you and you know and then seeing other speakers at large companies that you think gez it'd be amazing to work at these types of places this is just Pie in the Sky fluff that it doesn't make sense to me and I

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didn't understand it um and now I have a lot of those people who work for those companies that are friends that speak on my stages um but they're actually real people and they come and talk about real topics not just about where they work and what they're doing it's it varies so I really want to be a safe space and as I mentioned more of an event um about working within the industry or living within the industry uh the digital space um yeah so that's that that was the aim from the start just different content

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bringing people together creating a community and and a safe space for everyone how would you define the biggest challenges in the creative and digital space in in regards to events yeah or let's focus on the people attending the event um when you think about um you know for example my team here your team um you know creatives all across the globe whether being a freelancer or they're working for a company or they're chasing a career or trying to grow a company um what do you think are the typical challenges that

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seem to reappear that you want to touch on ones that reappear I mean we all suffer to a certain extent from you know not feeling good enough imposter syndrome all of these types of things um getting a foot in the door anywhere I mean I mentioned earlier that the reason I work for myself one yes I I was always destined to work for myself I think but you know I was growing up in the dark ages um you know you know I I left University doing a a multimedia degree but there are actually no jobs you know

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in digital agencies or creative agencies for web designers or anything like that or very few so I uh I found it very difficult to to even get a foot in the door with most places and just decided to go it alone so yeah I I I think especially with with people in the creative and digital space one of the things that we've noticed a lot with our audiences and and you know our speakers given amazing talks just this mental health is a huge one and things that they're battling inside and outside of work the competitive

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competitiveness of our industry um you know these are things that nobody talks about would you say that like and and this is maybe my opinion but um a lot of people look at creative types that are in the digital space as like get me a damn result just do this weird creative stuff that you do but I want my freaking row as I want my numbers and it's kind of soul sucking because you want to create cool [ __ ] but then you're just stuck with like we got to get this thing to work damn it yeah correct and you

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know one of the things that I've learned being a designer in in the digital space and being a business owner you can't just go and create and design cool [ __ ] because you know you're going to cop a lot of flack from one I'll cop it from my business partner but my developers won't be able to develop anything uh it's going to cost us a [ __ ] fortune you know there's reality at the end of the day for all this type of stuff but it is soul sucking and it can be because

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the whole your creativity can just be sucked right out of you and I found my myself at that point prior to nobs and I think that's I've spoken on another podcast in the past but um I I found that nobs creating that event actually saved my career as as hard and as difficult as it was you're touching on therapy earlier yeah well I got my creativity back like it was something I was passionate about which at that time you know where my agency was at the time we were doing smaller projects for you

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know accountants and things like that and it's not the most creative work and they were very difficult clients at times the ones that we were dealing with you know small business typical small business you know issues um and I felt that that had all been sucked out of me and no BS actually saved my career so I think that's interesting because we we were touching on this this morning um cam the the producer of the podcast and I were were touching on the fact that like everyone that works here on the

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team they have a natural tendency to have a creative outlet outside of work y so even though they're in a career they might be a designer they might be a copywriter web developer what have you we encourage them like also have some kind of Outlet because the clients will drive you nuts they'll complain about everything they'll demand tight timelines and you got to have that if you have that natural creative bone you got to you got to get that energy out somewhere yeah so that was for you the

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event yeah 100% 100% um and they're both my businesses and companies um so it sounds weird saying it but yeah that was that's like my side my side hustle an expensive therapy but I like it it was an expensive therapy U but it it was like my side hustle and I didn't care if I worked 18 hours a day like I was still bouncing up and energized enough because I was really passionate about it and want to do something great um and similar to you know if someone works for you they need to create another creative

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Outlet or something else that they need to do that's it's going to save their their life you it will um because you can't just stick to the one thing you need to try and broaden your horizons and and do things that you're passionate about similar to playing sport outside of work and you find something that you're passionate about that you can do um cuz you are limited in where you work you know no matter how creative people think they are at work you're still limited by a scope by a client by your

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boss um whereas when you're doing something on your own and outside of it you've kind of got free reign and that's what I found you know creating nobs um my business partner God blessy Marco um you bought into it and just let me run and you I ran and uh kind of did things my way and you know I [ __ ] up a lot but uh I I think we we landed in a good spot with it and it's something that's created tremendous value to people who have come and even the agency inherently and that's another question people have

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asked me so people what's that question um did I create the nobs conference to enhance my business and grow my business grabbing more clients all that type of we didn't even [ __ ] think about that yeah we put our heart earned on the line we kept we actually kept our name out of anything to do with the event the first time round okay yeah deliberately just to like deliberately because that's what people thought like that was the the preconception makes sense right because if you think about the I mean if we just

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talk about the Australian Market the event space that we have here is very much engineered to generate revenue for high ticket correct yeah and that's what we had found with other events so yeah I mean I I was expecting those questions but it actually hadn't entered my mind I really wanted to create something different and offer an alternative to your standard type events that uh you know corporate corporate selling machines um and that's what we didn't want to be so we uh we went and created it and I

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didn't want my agency you know to be too much involved in that because I didn't want people to feel that we were just doing it to to better the AGC wanted them to genuinely have an authentic experience yeah and that Mak sense to me that's probably why I spur out and create books and start a podcast is like the agency's so much like uh uh how would you say like a structured engine where clients want results they want performance which is fun and creative don't get to me wrong but yeah I think a

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raw creative Talent is just like I just want to control it front end yeah yeah yeah maybe we got some some issues there around low case t traa or maybe some capital T trauma we'll see yo my name is Dane Walker and I am disgustingly obsessed with branding I had to figure out a way to do branding every single day so I branded myself then I started my agency rival and hir a team of branding Mavericks hellbent on creating Brands so good that they'll make your competition their pants so here's the thing you want

00:25:44 - 00:26:43

your brand to go viral and rival makes Brands go viral that's why we're offering you a free 30-minute branding session to get an expert's opinion if you don't believe me the proof is in the pudding here's what clients have to say about rival rival is trusted by Brands like nutrition Warehouse light my bricks and V so if you want to absolutely smoke the competition and make your brand go viral hit the link below and book in your free 30-minute branding session okay so so let's go into the event space let's just

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look at the climate the landscape like what do you think it is that most event companies are getting wrong um well look it is tough and you you kind of have to Dance with the Devil sometimes you got to sell yourself out and I feel that that's what most events are doing these days and it's all about dollars and and corporate dollars because without sponsors um it's very hard to execute or pull off anything right so um yeah I I try and to run my events and whether it be a workshop with

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another speaker or you know um whatever that is um I I don't like the idea of backends you know people trying to sell something at the end of it um so I think a lot of events are getting it wrong in that regard and just offering that real authentic space as well I mean I don't like being in a room with 5,000 people I'd rather be in a room with you know 600 500 or even 100 um as long as they're my type of people so I think they're trying to appeal to too many different groups or segments right let's

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get a pile of people together pretty much let's Prime them and like high ticket sell them and you can't be everything to everybody um so yeah like we talk about nobs and the events that we created you know for the creative and digital Industries you know that's fairly broad but you know in anyone Point everybody's in digital in these days you got a a smartphone you're in digital or you're a content creator but um because I I know the industry it's my background I felt comfortable in doing

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that and I know that there's a gap whereas I wasn't trying to to bring everybody into into one space um I think that's trying to appeal to too many people ain't good I mean an nishe is great in any industry right yeah um so I I felt that this was a nich and and a it really needed to happen and something to focus on our right kind of like ComicCon like if you're a nerd you love comic books you like collecting stuff like this is the place for you and you're trying to create this safe Sanctuary for

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like hey hardcore creative digital types like we got an event for you where we're kind of un sheathing and and sharing what really it is like to work in this space yeah yeah pretty much so then I I've been to one of your events so you H you held an event uh here in Sydney in the Google building that's where we met and um you know that was quite an intimate like really fun collab abative experience cuz people were asking questions everyone in the room was kind of getting to know each other we could actually intermingle

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and and go on this journey together now regarding the putting together of an event I understand you're trying to give as much value within that event ticket as possible like if I pay to go to a concert to see a musician you know I want to be entertained when you're looking at the Australian climate what what what are the main things you think they're getting wrong like I I would say like if I and I'm not going to name names but like generally you know they're trying to mask the keynote as

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value but it's actually just a pitch around the product or service what what are the core fundamentals that people are just repeatedly getting wrong that they should just stay away from if they want to get in the event space um I I think you need to have a purpose and a reason um just getting a name on stage for the sake of their name um is not going to cut it okay they may once or twice you can't be like we got David goggin so buy a ticket yeah you want to you want to add a bit more to to

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correct so like I've mentioned with my own events um I've I've either handpicked them or I've or I've approached them based on who they are and what they can offer and what they can teach right so you're not trying to draw kind a big name to not really not necessarily if if I do or if I go down that path it would have to be for a real reason uh that they're going to offer value and proper value not fake value yeah um so that's where I think they get it wrong especially in Australia too

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because with the land far away from everywhere in order for us to get anyone here we've got to pay them you know a shitload of money money and you know some of those people may not really care that they're coming down here and be coming for the wrong reason so I see what you're saying yeah and we're far away man it takes like 36 hours to get out here and everyone's scared that it's just a land full of spiders and you it's a death trap time Village so um you know I've I've given them the Spiel of the

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event they they've actually bought in and love the concept and they want to add value to that so it's not just yes X you know come down will you speak at my event for x amount of dollars it's it's often the reverse with me because we are boot we do bootstrap our event it's it's predominantly self-funded until we can get some sponsors and ticket sales um I don't have half a million dollars to pay a keynote speaker um but people who believe in the concept in the idea will

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come out and uh you know we fly them out we put them up and they end up having a great time out in Australia but they're actually believing in the event which is which is something that's really important for me so you want them to believe in the event you don't want them to just come along just because you paid them um you want to add a theme or thematic to the event like hey it's for Creative types that want to learn how to better Master themselves in their head space Etc um and it's no [ __ ] no

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fluff like we're actually going to get in and learn some stuff event um what else do people typically get wrong um I think the experience so I go into every event that I I put on thinking about the attendee because it's I'm wanting to put an event that I would want to go to so things as simple as catering and you know uh networking events around that parties After parties the things where the speakers can get together with the attendees and just be together in a community and you know rub

00:31:36 - 00:32:28

shoulders with their Idols or whoever it is I mean it's about a creating experience and that has disappeared in so many of the the events I've been to in the last few years right it's typical now to like get your wristbands come in go get a coffee in the foyer come back go the toilet come back with a lot of the yeah with a lot of the events that I've been going to I mean yeah you pay ,000 bucks for a ticket you don't even get a sandwich for it like you've got to go and buy your own coffee and

00:32:02 - 00:32:57

sandwiches and drinks and that for me one it could be my European background I don't know but if people are spending their hard earned like you owe them some bloody lunch or or something like that like it's an experience for everybody them for a whole day correct and and that way if you are doing that and people aren't running off um and I can only speak from from my events because you know single single stage single venue you know running to multiple venues in multiple stages makes no sense

00:32:29 - 00:33:19

so I don't aspire to ever do that but the fact that people actually have to leave your Venue to go and eat makes no sense to me either like let everybody stay in the space if they want to go out sure go outside have a smoker whatever they want to do um but let's eat together let's drink together let's have coffee together let's let's stay in this moment in this space why do you think that's important uh because it's the way that everyone's going to start feeling

00:32:55 - 00:33:47

comfortable uh and get the most out of a two-day event let's say um they'll get to know people they'll Network because a lot of people may come on their own by the end of it they've made lifelong friends and I'm probably Testament to that because I've done that overseas um you know gone to events and met some amazing and incredible people some you know just regular people some big names but you've you put yourself out there and you want to get something out of that and I've also been to events

00:33:21 - 00:34:13

where it's very clicky and I can walk around a whole day and not speak to anybody um I've experienced that and that's not what I want out of my events either like I want them to be welcoming and and and help people along like feel that they belong that's a really good point okay so so like if you're hosting an event you want to make people feel comfortable create a sense of hospitality um which is you know it just it sounds cliche but it's it I don't often experience it like and I've been

00:33:47 - 00:34:35

to maybe 100 plus conferences rarely is there any food uh available outside like something so simple is expensive and you're there for a whole day you're paying 1,000 bucks 1,500 bucks you're getting the Diamond seat ticket and you're like you get a coffee with it you're like wow you know like I remember reading the websites it's like 1,500 bucks and it includes a coffee like I could just bring my own coffee you know like can the ticket be 900 bucks but what you're saying is like you want to

00:34:11 - 00:35:08

create a sense of comfort because I've been to these events where you you get your um your wristband you go in and it's like a casino they lock the doors and then they just High tickets sell you the whole day yeah yeah yeah that's and that's that's wrong in my in my opinion but uh yeah I I I I think that like you said it sounds simple um but and it is easy to do like if you're not looking at every dollar that comes in the door which you know you do because no one wants to lose money or pull their pants

00:34:39 - 00:35:31

down to to run an event or or do any business venture um but the experience is what's key the experience is what's going to allow you to run more events the experience is you know how people are going to talk about you and they're going to come back or they're going to follow you you create this community so if you're giving them a [ __ ] experience then you know why would they bother coming back I don't care how good the speakers are if it's not a great experience the whole two days um why

00:35:05 - 00:35:54

would you want to come back yeah you're putting on a concert you're you're holding space for people you want them to feel comfortable you want them to intermingle create lifelong connections and and get more out of it than just paying for a ticket and attending the event and going back to you know um curating the event and putting the speakers on and picking you know the orders in which they go and I roughly know the content and who the who the speaker is the personality and how they

00:35:29 - 00:36:21

might match or mix um it's similar to that like I want my audience to get my aim would be for them to get one thing out of every speaker I mean that might be pretty hard to do but if they can take one piece of information from 20 speakers over two days and they've done pretty damn good and they they're going to change their lives now when you're stacking the speakers back to back um what do you look for like because I understand obviously typically events open up around like 9:30 or 10: in the

00:35:55 - 00:36:58

morning um people are still spooling in in people tend to come in late um so how do you tend to structure What speaker should go up at what time of day uh is there a rule of thumb like how do you how do you figure that out um yeah it's it's a tricky one because that that morning sluggishness is is definitely a thing um we tend to start our days with like a a meditation okay yeah so we'll have uh Megan flam was our latest and she actually spoke at the first NOS as well so like a a meditational mind reset

00:36:27 - 00:37:23

you for people to come in the morning so it's like a giant daycare it's like let's let's do some breathing like let's really open our minds up for the day and that that kindly you know that that breaks the breaks the ice and and sort of gets everyone in in the right frame of mind um and then you can kick off with the speaker and you gen you would generally start off an event with a stronger speaker not your strongest or your keynote um but someone you feel that would be a really gooder a good

00:36:55 - 00:37:44

opener energetic yeah correct so you you'll have more energetic speaker at the start of the day and and generally rap with one of your Keynotes so be honest with me I'm typically the opener or the closer yep what does that mean you're an energetic fun guy let's go and usually if I'm the opener they're like d we should have put you at the end that that's does that mean well that that's what happens too so that means that you're a closer or you can be a closer you're you're good enough and

00:37:20 - 00:38:13

entertaining enough what's a closer like we're not talking about sales right no closing an event like as in being the last keynote of an event like the full stop punch this is what I'm getting out this is what I've got out of my two days this guy's closing the best event I've ever been to okay it's like it's like being the um what do you call it a conert like the oh like the um H what do you call that when they're like one more song like the closing the finale man The

00:37:46 - 00:38:32

Encore yeah yeah so that you're like the Encore and you're yeah I should do that in an next event like walk walk off stage and then come back out I got one more hour for you guys let's go so uh yeah do have to stagger it and you do have to you still need to sprinkle some other strong like there's stronger speakers and there's not so strong speakers kind of like DJing you got to keep the energy flowing correct and you got to know when to do that and after a break especially lunch people

00:38:09 - 00:39:05

are quite sluggish so you need to to whack on some more energy straight after lunch and yeah so it's so do you tend to sandwich the calm cool people like between the loud ones like or do you ease them into lunch with someone chill like how do you do that it generally ease them into lunch yeah um and then yeah you come come down lunch out of lunch wake up again yeah with a nice punch in the head um so you wake them up quickly after that sluggish lunch that they've just had but um yeah I I look I

00:38:36 - 00:39:32

I honestly I find curating like I I love it and I find it quite easy I don't know I don't want to sound like an idiot or adid um but I find it really easy to match speakers you know uh with each other so you know morning will be two speakers in a row and you'll have a morning tea break you'll have a block of three then another block of three and then you finish with another two so 2 speakers a day right um I think that's the math and then do how long do you tend to uh have per speaker like what do

00:39:05 - 00:40:09

you find is a good Pace I think 25's good 25 minutes per speaker yeah 25 minutes per speaker um your keynote you will allow because generally you know a lot of them have flown halfway across the world um and you give them anywhere between 35 and 45 minutes um but yeah 25 to 30 to 30 minute Mark is a is a good sweet spot what's your opinion on people that do like the 3our um High ticket close where they lock the doors they get you to run the back of the room wait for you to sign up at the end of the day sit

00:39:37 - 00:40:39

on your chair and declare your future look speak listening to one person speak you know unless it's like a proper workshop and interactive I would wouldn't be doing that myself I'd be falling asleep what's your opinion on that though like we see that a lot of that happening here in Australia where they're like you know the finally the key keynote speaker comes out um the big headline that everyone bought the tickets for they uh either do this big high ticket sale just before or just after yeah I I think it's

00:40:08 - 00:41:10

like being a used car salesman unfortunately why uh I just find it dirty uh I don't know for me it feels dirty just gives you the I yeah it does um it's definitely something I've never been into um and I've never been uh sucked into being into any of these events and I've been it feels like the only events I've million times but um I I don't know I just find it so tacky yeah you know I uh even running workshops you know I run workshops with with Christo and we've done them in

00:40:38 - 00:41:27

Australia you know in Dubai Vancouver so and we're continuing to work together uh one thing I can credit him on is that yeah you pay a ticket price but there is no backend there is no secret he doesn't want you to sign like he doesn't push anything that was the first event I ever went to where there was no upsell yeah there was no up and the cool thing was like so the way you structured event was like we came in he was kind of Jing and jamming for a little bit and then we went into Flow State and he was just

00:41:04 - 00:41:57

crushing and dropping nuclear bombs on the audience going back and forth and debating and having this really great uh I guess interplay between him and the crowd then we broke out we had lunch and champagne and book signing and then we went back in and hit it again and he stayed back for like an extra hour and a half just hung out with us afterwards so fantastic I have to pry him out everywhere we go I have to drag him out um is it's a draining day for him too don't forget like um but he genuinely

00:41:30 - 00:42:30

loves it he loves it and and people can't help but ask him questions and he's so happy to educate and wants to educate um yeah he's he's incredible at what he does and and seeing him you know having done several of them with him now you we tweak the formula we know it works and we Workshop some stuff um he's he's he's crazy um he loves teaching and I'm telling you the days are like eight or nine hours like you like you witnessed um we now do them over two and three days so full days and he still has

00:42:00 - 00:42:51

the energy to you know to go for another couple of hours and continue which I find fascinating because Chris is such an introvert but he loves it yeah he does feeds off it he feeds off it and you've developed a really close relationship with Christo over the past couple years as as have you with other people and you you tend to have a great knack for building relationships we've become great friends now when it comes to managing talents um what are the rules uh how do you how do you make sure

00:42:25 - 00:43:18

that you're a great host like what what are you conscious of to make sure that the speakers feel comfortable and do you treat different speakers differently how do you manage that it's a good point um because depending on your circumstances and and and you know the first conference we ran funds were at a minimum we didn't have too much to spend but I just go back to I would like to be treated how you know well I would like to treat my speakers as I would like to be treated so you know little

00:42:52 - 00:43:45

things like picking them up the airport you know obviously you're putting them up in a hotel giving them a nice little gift pack um just thinking of them and and being mindful of that um yeah I think some some touch points that are natural and should happen um and I think that's how you need to treat it again just like you would like to be treated yourself I think yeah often times I I find the experience is typically you're on stage at 10 yeah like cool okay yeah and I know where's your keynote yeah

00:43:19 - 00:44:04

send it over yeah yeah I know from my gu we have you know we have run-throughs the day before and all that sort of stuff but we will you know when everyone comes into town We Gather our speakers all together make sure they all meet we have a you know pre- dinner or a pre-event or drinks just so everyone can get to know each other right and some of these people could be both coming there could be five people coming from San Fran and they've never met before they're working in Tech they meet at our

00:43:42 - 00:44:33

event and it's just for people to be comfortable familiar um and we have these these little group events or you know things like that that um that that make them comfortable because some of them you know aren't comfortable just being on their own and and flying across the world so you try and make them as comfortable as possible and you know I've I've you know heard stories from from speakers that had to not to do things you know um just being left to their own devices to get to the hotel

00:44:07 - 00:45:01

know small things like having a driver pick them up or you know having uh you know a snack and you know a welcome box in their hotel room just makes that that little bit of a difference right a gift as well um so we generally try and give them a nice gift just to remember the experience and little things like that they matter I I think you know we we've had a tremendous amount of experience and um you know it kind of is a little awkward especially when you I mean in the beginning of when I was trying to

00:44:34 - 00:45:19

get on stage um you know I I would give my time for free and just a little thing like a gift or picking you up at the airport or just giving you a phone call like hey you're all good do you need do you need anything go way so I you know would whether it be text message or phone call I would check in with every single one of my speakers make sure everything's okay and they're okay even though I have an event team that that you know handles and manages the speakers um that Personal Touch is it

00:44:57 - 00:45:43

doesn't take much for me to do that and they these guys are doing me as solid you know they they're helping me fulfill my dream and run this amazing event you know they should be showing some respect they're not just a not just a number walking through the door they're actually they they're helping my event it's a good way of looking at it like you're you're kind of creating this play together and you're orchestrating it business owners if you're stuck using

00:45:20 - 00:46:29

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00:45:54 - 00:47:05

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00:46:30 - 00:47:33

of the event do you try to cover Through uh ticket sales um it's a tough one what do I try and what is ideal what would be what would be ideal would be to get to ticket sales and have all the costs of the event covered that would be fantastic yeah um I think if you can get halfway through your ticket sales okay um and then that's profit after that that that's a really good place to be in so you're saying half tickets sold or are you saying half of the event cost covered by tickets half of the No No half half of

00:47:02 - 00:47:54

the the ticket sold plus your sponsorships or anything like that so I'm still talking sponsorship right um so the combination of the two so if we take sponsorships and everything else out of the equation yeah you could sell out an event and probably just break even without sponsorship we just would just tickets yeah which is you know kind of what we did with our first one because we you know we had no history we had no no no uh Foundation to to go on so our sponsorship dollars were minute we had some great brands

00:47:27 - 00:48:17

um sponsor but you know no one knew what what we were about what we were doing I mean we we kicked off our marketing campaign with a with an i stock photo right that I you know blurred out and uh that's how we went to Market and sold tickets um so I could understand that and you know we actually lost money on our first event we were prepared to um but we sold as many tickets as we possibly could so you you could do it just based on ticket sales alone okay but it be tough you is what you're

00:47:52 - 00:48:48

saying it'd be tough and I think having sponsors as well just offers that level of cred ability especially if they're aligned with you know your your event and your brand so you know for instance our major sponsor last event was was Shopify you know um we're a partner of theirs at the agency but you know they aligned with many of our speakers and you know what they do and and and they were one of our major sponsors so yeah very aligned with the industry very aligned with our our audience um so it

00:48:20 - 00:49:08

made sense but it gives you credibility so why are event sponsors so important for brand perception because you just touched on that like is it does it help with ticket sales like what's the psychology there again cig uh so not necessarily sure it would help with ticket sales because I don't think any particular brand sponsoring an event is going to help sell tickets right but you might scroll through the website and go oh Shopify sponsoring Shopify partnering um you know we had figma partner as well

00:48:45 - 00:49:33

and you know we had a whole bunch of great companies partner for people in the creative space they're like okay cool like it gives you CR it gives you credit it gives you some runs on the board and if these these companies feel good enough to sponsor you and believe in you and then why shouldn't the audience and do you what what do you see as the typical flowing effect from the sponsors obviously they cover the tickets are there any other perks to having sponsors um yeah well you get access to

00:49:09 - 00:49:59

their networks as well so you know if they're happy with with what you're delivering they'll be recommending you they'll be sending people to the event uh so there's there's flow and effects you know everywhere um and and the one the hardest thing that I find you know if we are bringing on a larger sponsor I want to give them value as well and I've learned some you know some less you're not showing them enough love you know pre or post um but we we want to give them as much visibility as much you

00:49:34 - 00:50:42

know as much thanks as we possibly can and hopefully value what's uh one of those lessons I think after like our first event and and I'll blame myself but also Co hit so we wrapped our first event in Melbourne the day before we went into lockdown um so you know I didn't know if the agency was going to survive the events just r I'm dead tired um and then you know kind of the whole of Australia well Victoria closed down um and I kind of forgot about them I and probably didn't reach out enough to to enough of

00:50:08 - 00:51:05

the sponsors or Partners to actually thank them or show my appreciation enough um just those little things that that made uh probably would have made a difference second time around I don't know you've done events internationally as well like you've talked about Dubai Europe um you traveled with Christo all across the world what are some of the unique challenges that you faced when you were traveling abroad and doing international events versus what you experienced here um I don't know like Dubai was a an

00:50:37 - 00:51:32

incredible experience I mean we were always going there um but I found I actually found it a lot easier than running an event here and that's for two things over there they're very happy to bring great people into the into you know into Dubai or the Middle East they're happy to get these people that won't necessarily or haven't necessarily gone there and they're thankful for that experience and and like I still get emails you know of people asking me to go back with with Chris or whoever it is

00:51:04 - 00:51:55

because they thank us for actually going there here it's it's a little different um I find it you've got to sell a lot harder um so you got to be a bit more aggressive um whereas they they're thankful for the opportunity and thankful to learn and not that they're not here but I just maybe we're too saturated with events and how many people come here I don't know um you know we ran an event in Vancouver you know similar scenario people from North America coming to see Chris um they were

00:51:30 - 00:52:23

thankful a bit hard to resell and it depends on the economy and how things are going at that time but I don't know I I don't differentiate the two too much so whether it's overseas or here it's the same process same scenario um Dubai Dubai was an interesting one it was it was great and with the international events the live stuff that you're doing what's your take on like digital events versus physical events do you find that there's a radical difference with the content and how it's received yeah

00:51:56 - 00:52:56

there's no itute for an inperson event in my opinion why um because you one get to be in a room with a whole bunch of your peers um Network it's an experience right you're not in your jocks in your Lounge room correct me how many events during Co did we did we sign up for and you know you've got one screen with the event on you one screen doing your work you're not sitting in front of the television watching a conference for the whole day I remember sitting on like a uh like an event and it was like a 3-day

00:52:26 - 00:53:15

event everyone was getting up at like 6 a.m. to be on this conference and 80% of people had their zoom off and then the 20% of people had their Zoom look like they were falling asleep it's tough man like you're sitting in one spot it's not an experience yeah sure if you're super dedicated you're getting up at 6:00 in the morning to do it you might do it the first day but uh you're not going to sit there for two full days from 6:00 a.m. you know watching a a conference online

00:52:50 - 00:53:46

um sure if you're on the other side of the world and you can't definitely can't make it you know we we sold ual passes for the first time at our last conference um s that was you know super successful it was it was it was great but we had people from all over the globe um you know we geolocated people in Melbourne that were cheeky enough not to uh you know not to purchase a ticket to the conference and and then quickly lock that area out because that was cheeky um but if you def if you really

00:53:19 - 00:54:15

couldn't come to the event and you wanted that experience yeah there's a there's a place for it but there's no there's um yeah no substitute for any person yeah it's like watching your favorite artists on YouTube versus going to a live concert totally different do you think that um the content on the internet has saturated people's appetite to go to Live Events like you see this footage of you know Jim ran or Brian Tracy uh you know in the 60s and 70s and 80s and it's just like crowds of people

00:53:46 - 00:54:29

super engaged are people fatigued are they still getting the same experience that they watch yeah I obviously you know you're creating content there's so many other people creating content out there um sometimes it's hard to differentiate with a lot of them because they're talking about the same stuff um so yeah potentially yeah that's that's not a bad point and how do you I guess combat that so when when people shop you're like okay we're going to give them something

00:54:08 - 00:55:04

a little bit extra like they've come all this way they bought a ticket they've taken their whole day off like how do you make sure as an event as a host that you're putting something on that they walk out and go I'm so glad I committed today to the event um it would be and we've had similar discussions you know when when working with Chris you know people would email us in saying what are we getting that's we can't find online oh right people would email that to you oh yeah yeah yeah what why should I come

00:54:36 - 00:55:30

why should I come you can just watch YouTube right and I'm like well you know Chris will be the first one to tell you you're not getting everything you know on YouTube there's so many things and so many intangibles uh the pure fact that you can you know and I'll use Chris for as an example again you know we will direct every day based on what the the audience wants um so he'll ask at the start of the day what do we want to get out of today yeah we we'll have a basic structure done or he'll have a basic

00:55:02 - 00:55:51

structure um but it's tailed to to everybody's needs and wants you can ask direct questions you can spend time with him one-on-one like there's no substitute for that um you can watch as many videos as you like but you're not you're going to learn some stuff there's some stuff that you just need to be you know in in the same room as people and you'll learn off the people that are in the room as well it's not just the not just the facilitator do you find it like when people are in a a physical event

00:55:27 - 00:56:13

they tend to learn more pay more attention yeah I think so well they've got a vested interest right they've spent their hard earned yeah they've got to get something out of it their workers sent them and they have to do a a presentation on the event that they've just their works just spent a few thousand on so they do have to learn yeah you you've got to be there for the right reasons and I I remember when I attended your event I took like a whole bunch of my team I invest I invested

00:55:50 - 00:56:34

like I think nine or 10 grand and I was like guys like right notes his notepads I was like we're going to invest we're going to learn did it work it to worked I think some of the some of the things that we took out of the event we immediately implemented in the business and it was stuff that I kind of touched on and mentioned before cuz I'm a huge Christo fan but like having my team sit there and just like see it firsthand they were like wow that's fantastic I'm like I said that too last week you know

00:56:12 - 00:57:04

so there's there different coming from you it's different totally different coming from Chris I don't my team don't want to listen to me anymore I I get it too my team are the same though I'm like I hang out with chriso they're like we don't care you're not Chris um so okay now take me into the world the speaker right so those that aspire to be a good speaker to have great stage presence you know Chris has this great ability to really kind of break the ice and take

00:56:38 - 00:57:41

everyone's guard down and banter back and forth and create energy in the room what what is it that makes a good speaker um somebody who's willing to be vulnerable I think for me um I think you're allowing people in and not just talking about the success and and everything that's great like let's talk about real [ __ ] let's talk about something you know um that we all need to talk about and like it could be about a project I'm not saying don't talk about work but what about that project

00:57:09 - 00:58:07

you know what were the difficulties like how did you navigate through this I I yeah open I want them to open themselves up and be and be vulnerable I don't want them to be the last thing you need is somebody knowing everything okay so they're not using like the salesy voice you know that voice not at my events anyway yeah you know how people have like this second voice that they get on stage you do this and you'll be a millionaire none of that [ __ ] yeah they have like this preachy weird kind of alternative voice

00:57:38 - 00:58:29

definitely none none of that stuff and I mean it was called OBS for a reason and it is no [ __ ] and that's that was my aim and and that's what I would like for any speaker so you know I go to other events and uh see other speakers and you know the more they open themselves up to the audience and and and are honest and and vulnerable um I think the the more the the attendees will get out of it what's your advice to someone who aspires to get on stage like where should they start what what should they

00:58:04 - 00:58:51

do good question maybe you should tell me I'm not a speaker uh but when people reach out to you what do you look for right like like yeah look I I look for an authentic genuine person first of all um I'll have a call with them um and you can generally tell within the first few minutes what type of character or person they are so they probably have to align morally and ethic ethically with me I think kind like a job interview right almost like that well it is right they're they're one representing

00:58:28 - 00:59:24

themselves but they're also representing me and my event so yeah like why you a good fit for this audience yeah so it needs to be right and they you know they'll bump some ideas you know across you know what they want to talk about and um I actually don't really give a brief uh to any of my speakers they'll tell me their idea and I'll just tell them to run with it um but my my the only thing I'll tell them is there's no portfolio showing yeah I don't want you to show unless it's for a specific

00:58:55 - 00:59:56

reason or an exp specific example I don't want you up there just say this is what we did here at XYZ U because reality is that person that is showing that hasn't done anything on that Bloody project so for me you know it doesn't make sense um so yeah I no portfolio showing just talk about something that's that's you know meaningful and and true and and is going to give somebody value now when you're looking at these people do you care about their following like what are you thinking about like like if

00:59:26 - 01:00:26

you're being selfish as an event host what are you trying to get out of the speaker um that is easy to do um I've also invited speakers or people that I've met from overseas that have never spoken on a stage before but their story is incredible I've had them on my stage no following no real you know speaker experience I've just done it based on the person so I I I don't necessarily look at that stuff yes it does help because it will help sell tickets if you got a large you know large name compy

00:59:56 - 01:00:57

coming so there needs to be a balance of the two um I like finding you know um Diamonds in the Rough as well so you know if you can identify or or find somebody and they have something really important to say let's let's get them on stage well said and and do you think that there's as much of a difference between like B2B style events versus B Toc style events um well B Toc you're it's almost a selling uh selling event right yeah so yeah we got a lot of those as yeah you'd

01:00:27 - 01:01:23

get you'd get a lot of them so there are there are distinct differences but B2B probably has an element of that too um our event having everybody within the same sort of Industry doesn't it's not really something that we want um or allow for M yeah there there are a massive difference between betc and BB yeah what would you say like is a good acument as a speaker because I'm always terrified if I go like a few minutes overtime I'm oh I'm putting the rest of the event out like how should a speaker

01:00:55 - 01:01:40

approach it cuz I've I've had where I'm like man the audience are in the palm of my hand I could go for another 10 like what do you think's acceptable what do you think's rude uh acceptable for length yeah like how far over can someone go you know what I mean you're not going to want to go an hour over or half an hour over you can go five minutes over that's that's okay yeah five to 10 minutes is okay so when I hear Dan you're going to get a 45 minute keyo I should really be like it's it's

01:01:17 - 01:02:15

50 and you should know in your own research and uh you know and experimenting and practicing that you've done how long something's going to go for and yeah uh generally find it a lot wrap up quicker than than what they thought yeah now when it comes to marketing and selling tickets um you know what kind of timeline are you trying to work through what what are the tactics how do you make sure you can pack out an event yeah good question I probably should have had my marketing director Johnny here so as I mentioned

01:01:46 - 01:02:46

our first event we had no history no background and we purely relied on on paid paid ads on on Instagram um and Facebook to sell tickets um so it's there's definitely an out form behind it they do enough research behind it um if we do have a speaker who has a a large following we tend to be able to to follow and Target you know their followers and audiences um so it's very targeted um yeah that that's that's what's going to sell you the most so do you rely on the speakers to do a lot of

01:02:16 - 01:03:08

the work or have you lifting not really no I if they they are of note you know um you know sure we ask them to share it around we tell all ask all our speakers to share it around but ultimately it's not their job right um it's our job and and thankfully I have a a great marketing team at the agency that that can help nobs when we uh when we do Market an event um but well that's an important point because I think sometimes I've I've felt like they're expecting me to sell tickets for them

01:02:42 - 01:03:36

yeah and you're saying that the onus is actually on them to sell the tickets I'm the talent I'm coming in doing a keynote uh if they want to use me to sell tickets like you guys do some advertising with me or what have you yeah I mean and look you know if you're if you're you're being Tak somewhere and there should be an element of you spooking it or promoting it uh but it shouldn't be reliant on You by by no stretch that's up to the event to do um if it's a one one one person event let's

01:03:08 - 01:04:09

say it's a workshop um you know there's there'd be an interest for the talent to to promote that a little bit more but if it's a large scale event then you know the the promoter or the organizer shouldn't be a lying just on the speakers to sell the tickets how do you measure success like how do you know you've you've crushed it um not financially um it's not is it's it's tough I mean yeah but the fact that I constantly get emails of people asking me when the next one's going to be um or

01:03:39 - 01:04:33

asking us to to go to their town or whatever that is that that for me is success as far as the event is concerned people are missing the event and want it um then we've done our job and we're doing something good we're on the right path and do you think that that's part to do with you know creating a great experience and having them wanting more yeah yeah 100% yeah we we've offered something different we've resonated with a certain group and you know the events that we do aren't for everybody uh

01:04:06 - 01:05:10

similar to bringing in sponsors it's not an event that you know it can be a bit polarizing with the content that we do have um and come up with sometimes but um yeah if people want more then that's if one person comes back and and wants more then I think you've kind of done your job do you think people typically in the I guess a creative space and the digital agency space kind of see each other more as like competition versus comrades yeah that's definitely thing um I uh yeah we would I would go to a a

01:04:38 - 01:05:30

networking events and meet other agency owners and stuff back in the day and they look at you lucky the competition um we should be banding together and come together and share experiences and help each other grow there's enough work for everybody yeah um you know there's enough to go around and you know if we're constantly undercutting each other or thinking we're each other's competition then the industry won't grow won't grow it's just going to get worse you know if you're undercutting your

01:05:04 - 01:06:03

competitor then the price the bar is just going to keep going low why don't we all come together and raise the bar and and and and look at each other as comrades you know and friends as opposed to as opposed to enemies especially now because you're seeing that you know inflation's really starting to affect businesses um I'm finding that there was kind of an era of uh agencies uh and creatives that were kind of churn and burn it was like pump out SEO pump out blogs pump out meta ads do you think

01:05:34 - 01:06:21

that and and this is my hunch that everything's kind of going back to creative like it seems like everything's seemingly needing to get a bit more creative again versus the churn and burn that we've experienced in the past 10 years yep so those uh and again depending on the type of work you're doing but yeah 100% I mean there's so many tools out there that can do all those things you were talking about be having a creative mind and being creative is uh as much as we think AI is

01:05:58 - 01:06:52

going to take over the creative domain there still needs to be a brain behind that to a certain extent and and whether it's be prompting or or whatever you still need to have a great company or great people running it and uh and producing that work and people still want to work with humans 100% at least for a little while um and what are the biggest challenges in scaling an event from like small to large like what what kind of growth should you see like what what's what's a successful growth trajectory

01:06:25 - 01:07:27

for for an event company I kind of did the the reverse I went large and then went small so I went from large scale to um look with our first event we were happy getting you know 300 people in there that was a great position I think we had like 285 or something like that so we we did a decent job our second one we had in excess of 500 and sold out the the venue um so I think you know if you can get 100% growth that's a it's a good uh good a good outcome but yeah if you can if you can grow 50% each on on on

01:06:56 - 01:07:48

each event then you've done your job and now you touched on this a little bit but like why is it that the small more intimate events why do you think that's better like like obviously people get to make more relationships they get to hang a bit it's more personal I think I mean I I like maybe more Niche or curated yeah definitely curated like like ours a single stage you know uh you know I think 10 speakers as well like I've made the I won't call it a mistake but we've had 10 speakers a day it can be a lot um

01:07:23 - 01:08:16

I think next event we'll probably cut it down by a couple um because it can get a lot for the audience there's a lot there's a lot to take in it's a big day long day um but they they're they're in each day and you're in the one space with the same people rather than going from room to room different tracks you're having to cross you know I was at South by Southwest in Sydney and I missed every single talk that I wanted to see because I had to run to a either a hotel or back to the convention center

01:07:49 - 01:08:50

or you know that that for me was tough the way they did it in Sydney was I I kind of had a rough experience was just like it's so spread out I don't know running around like it's it was brutal it was Mayhem yeah yeah yeah so that's exactly what I don't want um so yeah I I I deliberately make it you know single venue single track right um when you say track you mean like like one Focus or well not sorry not track single stage single stage got you yeah got you and um how do you make sure that I guess

01:08:20 - 01:09:22

between the speakers like how do you handle the balance between like the artistic ideas and the clients demanding like teach me how to do something you know yeah so I I'm of um of the belief that when you go to a conference such as Al like I I'm a designer I shouldn't have to be taught how to draw circles and squares right like if me more if I need to go to a conference to learn how to do my job then you know it's uh I I don't know about that um yeah it's it's St but the the more technical talks so

01:08:51 - 01:09:42

that's that again comes down to curation so you going have a more creative person talking about it pretty deep topic and then you need to get into someone that's maybe talking about Ai and and the future of of tech and things like that so it's it comes down to curation so you do need a good balance is it a bad thing to have people overlap on topics I don't think so I think there's so much overlap in in our industry and and in our lives these days that everything comes down like everything can be mixed there's

01:09:17 - 01:10:06

yeah and there's not one topic that we run with if you if you're a designer and you speak at our event you you might not even talk about design you'll introduce yourself as a designer from x that you could be wanting to talk about depression and mental health I don't know or you might be wanting to talk about the the future state of the world I don't know so it might be the same subject matter but a different perspective or different lens of it y now in conclusion a couple more

01:09:40 - 01:10:56

questions for you how do you want to be remembered oh jeez um similar to no BS I I would like to be remembered as a no [ __ ] person who did things for the right reasons that's all I want and that's in business in life um I'm a really honest person you know probably to my own detriment sometimes if you if you're [ __ ] up I'll tell you um likewise I would expect that from from you for instance um you know honesty and uh morals and ethics is what I generally live by and uh you know

01:10:18 - 01:11:20

I think I think mine are fairly good I would agree you're fantastic man we've always enjoyed hanging out and uh now what's a quote or a mantra that you've carried with you on this journey that you wished everyone listening to this would immediately Implement I wouldn't say a mantra but um could be a quote or could quote I can't even think of one now you've put me on the spots I'm not great with quotes um again I would just tell people to try it because unless you try you're never

01:10:50 - 01:11:55

going to know if you sit there and you think about it and you you'll never know if you never try something and that goes in every every facet of life um you know business events life marriage children if you don't put yourself out there and put the proverbial on the line um I don't think you'll ever get those answers or or no I would agree with that I was reading um uh do you know Alan Watts I've heard the name yeah very prolific writer and and um you know he had this book where he talks about taism

01:11:22 - 01:12:26

and Zen and Buddhism and he was saying that like metaphorically um imagine if I had a a rope and I were to show you how I would tie that rope into a knot Y and then I would hand you the rope and then you could probably replicate it he said now try to describe how to do a complex note with words it's a very different experience and and this was his definition of like this is the difference between a lived experience and like uh perspective right like it's it's like it's one thing to

01:11:55 - 01:12:53

observe something thing and it's a very different thing to experience it 100% yeah yeah very well put and and I think that you know to your point when it's when it's back to experiencing something he was saying that the West is typically less likely to be open to a new experience that doesn't make sense until you make it make sense first yeah do you think that like people are getting in their own way uh of scaling or growing in business because they need all the answers before they start the journey

01:12:23 - 01:13:24

yes you can't have all the answers um um I know enough people who try and find those answers there is no way that you can I mean you can make educated decisions and take educated risks you know sure but that is not a 100% foolproof plan you need to jump off that Cliff sometimes in order to experience it um so yeah we do get a lot of people do get in their own way because they're trying to minimize that risk and you can only do that to a certain extent there's risk in everything we wouldn't be sitting here

01:12:54 - 01:13:45

if it wasn't for risk really I would agree not stupid risk I mean sometimes it's been stupid don't get me wrong like creating a conference um but I you know the if you can minimize that risk and and it can be more calculated then then fine but it's still a risk so you still need to take that uh that leap for you like one of those moments or those bouts where you're like man this isn't working I want to throw in the towel this is this this sucks it's not going according

01:13:20 - 01:14:15

to the plan like what do you do in those situations you got another hour let's go man let it rip no um I don't know I I I tend to have this act at I I call myself stupid sometimes I don't know like I I tend not to overthink things like I don't think enough is what I say to people that's how I feel I feel like when people like you need to go think about this I'm like no let's just to make a decision right now yeah like you can't do that I I yeah I don't think enough about

01:13:47 - 01:14:41

things in in enough to to do you think that's a good thing in some circumstances yeah Ian you could ask my wife and she'll probably tell me it's not um because there's certain things that I should think about that that I probably don't but let's come back let's come back to running an event right is it like what percentage of you running this company is intuitive creativity versus Commercial Management I think there's a really it's a really good mix it and it has to be so there's there's a

01:14:14 - 01:15:03

creative side of things obviously and then there's I mean I've been running a business for how long there's the commercial aspects of it as well right so you've got to be realistic too it's not just jump off jump off a cliff and do it so you minimize those risks um but you've got to have both brains you know creative brain business brain uh I think I have both and as a designer and as a business owner I have both so it's um yeah it's pretty calculated n if someone

01:14:38 - 01:15:43

like like what's your opinion on this when it comes to business right like for Creative types for events and and things of that nature when you're talking about like sometimes you just have to dive in you just have to throw the dice have a crack like stop overthinking it right like how much do you think is um just purely lived experience versus trying to come up with the perfect plan um there is no perfect plan I've never had a plan in my life uh so it probably comes from more lived experience to be honest um as

01:15:10 - 01:16:08

I said I never had uh business being in the business of events um I just found that I wanted to do something different and offer an alternative and believed in it and went ahead and did it I mean I think also running a business being a designer helped me ly um having a a brother who was a musician probably from an entertainment side of things you know um was helped me out with that entertainment side of things and you know learning how things worked and you know I used to do a bit of theater and

01:15:40 - 01:16:45

stuff when I was younger so I knew how Productions work so all that coming together helped me heaps yeah is there a state that you like to be in when you're doing this like how do you keep yourself in the right Flow State late at night when my kids are asleep and I'm not I'm not thinking digital agency it's definitely I'm I'm a night ow and a designer at the end of the day so I like being left alone from 9:00 p.m. till 2: a.m. so I can get my stuff done hours yeah the Twilight hours

01:16:12 - 01:16:57

that's when I'm at my best and at my most peaceful I would agree with that it's like nothing better than being by yourself at 1:00 a.m. as a creative and going I got another hour in me but you and you don't realize how long you're spending like you can go to bit at 4: or 5 in the morning and you you've done so much and achieved so much because you are in this state and that's uh that's when all the distractions are gone right I'm I'm trying this new thing now and

01:16:35 - 01:17:22

it's kind of it's brutal but it's like it's cuz I'm a night owl like I'm just like you too and I'm doing this thing where I wake up before a.m. I sit down at my desk and I just try to start writing Jesus okay it's brutal what I'm starting to find now is like it's like day four and I'm getting up and I'm like enjoying it okay and it's like I get my head space right cuz I used to like what I used to do I used to get up check my phone go through a bunch of emails and

01:16:58 - 01:17:45

text messages the kids would wake up I'm running in and out I'm dressing them I'm just I'm like I wake up in May I get it yeah and uh dude like my soul has like healed from just waking up and just going [ __ ] it's just me for an hour so instead of going to bed at 4:00 we should be getting up at 4:00 well I'm going to bed at like 11:00 so I still haven't solved for the going to bed early part honestly what you're saying is is probably probably a good point um and you that's you getting out of your

01:17:22 - 01:18:08

comfort zone right and do something different it's been hot it's been you I'm not like I'm not like loving it but what I'm finding is by day four I'm like okay there's something to this and like sitting down and writing as the sun comes up is like really beautiful and I'm getting ideas I don't usually get at night right cuz my day is so like back to back to back to back busy busy busy you saw my [ __ ] calendar it's just like uh it's like an ocean of Skittles

01:17:45 - 01:18:50

that's what my calendar looks like just get some Skittles and tip them out on on the floor that's what my calendar looks like um and by the time I get home the kids are in bed I'm like man I I just I got nothing left I I I kind of understand where you're coming from now because working late now for me I my mind it's very tough for me to do um because I've done so much of it and I've finally in a at a point where you know I'm not running a huge event or an event um I've got out of the the you know the

01:18:17 - 01:18:58

bushes as far as you know a big projects concerned and I don't have that much to do at night anymore and the thought of me having to sit up now late at night gets to me so there's probably something in what you're saying man I should get up earlier I had a vandetta for like decades where I'm like I hate morning people like get away from me don't understand it don't want to hear about it but now I'm doing it I'm like yeah there's something to this I've seen I've

01:18:37 - 01:19:34

seen I've honestly I've seen it from uh Nikki my wife she's um she loves you know working out and stuff and you know she's been getting up at like 4:30 in the morning to take her 5:00 or 5:30 class yeah I call her insane but yeah you know that's what mean she's winning man she's she's winning she's yeah but she she by no means is she a morning person either but it drives her and it gets her into this state and space that that works for her I have I have a new

01:19:06 - 01:20:12

joke now I'm like I beat the Sun up you know what I mean I'm like the sun a even up yet I beat that [ __ ] I'm out here working it's not even up yet um so last question what's a door that you need to kick in right now to take your business to the next level okay uh talking about events as far as the agency is concerned not too many I mean it's it's okay I mean it's going going well as far as the event stuff's concerned uh not so much a door just time I think is what I need so I

01:19:39 - 01:20:35

need to kick time in the butt kick time in the butt you get some of that 4 a.m time um um it really is it's just um because the the event stuff like I said isn't my core core business it's my my love job um if I could spend more time on it than I could do many many things with it what do you think that would give you more time right now like what what are some of those doorways that could open that up for you uh probably less time at the agency which I don't want to say but um yeah I think freeing

01:20:07 - 01:21:03

myself up from the agency a little more would would open those those doors for yeah do you have any advice for someone who's trying to get out of the day-to-day operations of their business um yeah there have been points where I thought I could and then you have this period of growth and you're back in the trenches again um I don't know it's it's a very tough one I can't give anyone an answer on it I don't think um very tough I mean what everyone should be doing in their

01:20:35 - 01:21:26

business and I've been trying to do this for the better part of a decade is make yourself redundant from your business um because if your business is just relying on you either to bring in work or do the work then you're in trouble so if you can make yourself redundant and have some more spare time then you'll be able to do that uh that love job and go into something else well if you figure out how to do it please let me know cuz um well again I thought I had it figured out and uh then I'm back then then I'm

01:21:00 - 01:21:53

back doing 15 hours a day on a you know on the tools so yeah it it changes maybe we should do a keynote about that let's do it yeah let's let's try and find the world experts and figure this out and find out how to do it cuz yeah I I went through this experience last year where Cam and I started doing more Keynotes I started creating online courses writing books and were you were you even in in Australia half the year no no I was traveling so much and and like you know the business was doing well it's just

01:21:26 - 01:22:24

nowhere near um I guess the velocity that it would when I'm involved and I think and never it never probably will be it probably never will be no let's be real and that's that's the fun of building an agency is is it's uh it's not a rinse repeat system creativity is something that is very nuanced very complex and clients want to work with the person who runs a business yeah 100% um and when you say when I say you know make yourself redundant I don't mean stepping away

01:21:56 - 01:22:53

completely and letting the place you know burn to the ground um you want to be in a position where if you do need to do things like fly overseas take you know do a keynote talk it shouldn't impact the business too much yeah um that's if you can find that balance then then then that's great I mean we we had our tests last year we're running a couple of the biggest projects we've ever had in our career at the agency and um you know my business partner got married and all of a sudden you know for

01:22:24 - 01:23:20

of the senior management are overseas and it was a great test for our team it was a great test for us um the place didn't burn down yeah could you do that 12 months of the year no but for a period of time if you can if you can you know go off and do what you need to do then and the place doesn't burn down then you're doing your job well I mean everyone's objective in business is to try to create a company that doesn't go up in Flames uh that would allow them to go on holiday time to time and I was

01:22:52 - 01:23:47

listening to Scott Galloway I don't know if you've listened to Scott Gallow in his content but he was saying in Germany they have this rule in companies where if you become the CEO of a company in Germany and um you go away for four weeks and you have to go away for four weeks every year in Germany uh as as a CEO of a company and it's a test if you go away for four weeks and the company suffers then you get fired y okay I I think there's something to that right there's something to it a little it's a

01:23:20 - 01:24:17

little rough a little yeah it's a little rough but like what I think it is is maybe it's a head space yeah maybe maybe and I battled this part of part of your uh subconscious psyche is the hero that saves the day and this is something I'm working on right now I like to come in and be the hero that saves the company uh and then a part of me is like no I want to go and do some other creative stuff do you think that there's people out there that are running agencies that their attachment

01:23:48 - 01:24:46

of their personality or their identities attached to their organization and the minute their organization doesn't really need them they panic yeah I I would say that's fair I think that's what I experienced last year but back to the thing in Germany I I have a theory I want to test here and I think that if it's front of Minds it can happen yeah yeah it's it's an interesting one because similar to that I I would love you know my business to to thrive when I'm away yeah but I would

01:24:17 - 01:25:12

probably think [ __ ] I'm away and my business is thriving no one's Emil no one doesn't need me anymore no one needs me anymore I'm become obsolete you run it's a it's a tricky one but in order to grow you need time and you just can't be bogged down in an office and in the business the whole time like you you're you're better served outside of it do you know doing other creative Endeavors or or what have you and that's ultimately going to benefit your business as well so I would agree with

01:24:44 - 01:25:35

that if if you can get in that that state then uh you'll be doing you'll be doing okay if you feel like you need to be chained to your office 24/7 and can't think or do anything else then that's a problem too yeah so like in closing here if someone's considering like I'm going to go out there and start my own event business I'm fed up with the state of the industry I'm tired of these people just spooking and selling their [ __ ] what's your advice for someone who's

01:25:10 - 01:26:06

like I want to go for a good hard crack at this throw everything I've got at it what's some advice you would give someone who's like considering starting their own event business it it is a tough one um I definitely think you need to find some allies in in in what you're doing so one's going to be validation of your idea and what you want to do um so have some allies have some people that are going into bat for you and you know you really need to believe in what you're doing so are you offering a

01:25:37 - 01:26:21

difference like any business I mean if you tell me you if you told me you were coming to start an online store and you were going to sell a Leisure wear whatever a a Leisure Weare is that what they call it I don't know you know like whatever and everyone else a Leisure wear right if you if you're if you're telling me going to start a business doing that I'm going to tell you you're crazy because there's another million million people doing it if you've got a niche it's something different and you

01:26:00 - 01:26:56

believe in it and you're passionate about it that's what you need to do and get some allies on board get some people who are going to Spook you get some friends that are going to help you along the way because I was fortunate enough to have that and you know that leads to other doors being opened so it's don't be alone I think is is what I would tell people like tell people as much as you can find some allies find some friends and uh yeah you don't have to do it alone well said yeah Jay your dear

01:26:28 - 01:27:15

friends I appreciate you being here we'd certainly love to have you back in the future man thank you I appreciate it man thank thanks for having me man it's uh it's been great hopefully it was uh valuable enough for you guys definitely I I think anyone who's considering running an event business you know um I'm I'm sure people could reach out to you talk to you if anyone wants to collaborate and play uh support for your event I would encourage people that are listening to this right now reach out to

01:26:52 - 01:27:45

Jay I'm sure you'll happily take any support yeah and you got some really cool stuff coming up so we have Rumblings and rumors that Chris Do's coming back out um some other big names and I'm really excited to watch you um yeah flourish in the coming year and put your heart back in events appreciate it uh I I definitely want to do it but thank you for having me it's been been awesome we'll see you soon thanks man bye bye [Music]